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Tier 7 nonpremium battleships data

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I grabbed the ships' characteristics from the WG wiki and put together note files for "data sheets". You guys can just compare them to each other, see whenever the Colorado has been power creeped in certain areas.

Is there a case for a Wee Vee 44 hull as upgrade hull for Colorado?

Is there a case for the Wee Vee 44  as a Tier 7 Premium?

Post your thoughts here.

Colorado Top Hull.txt

Nagato Top Hull.txt

Gneisenau Top Hull.txt

King George V.txt

Lyon.txt

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IMO, they really can't do the 1944 version of West Virginia at tier 7 while keeping all of the advantages post modernization. It outright surpasses the Colorado in every way unless they heavily tweak the WV to match tier 7 performance.

I get why players want the 44 WV. Mid tier American standard BBs are a difficult bunch to grind, and even fewer players enjoy playing them competitively. West Virginia would bring a much wanted quality of life improvement compared to the existing tech tree. But if we squeeze WV into tier 7, it won't be what players would want.

Prime example is the Duke of York. Compared to the tech tree version of KGV, DoY has 1 less heal and slower reload for better AAA and hydro. If WV gets better AAA, TDS, and secondary batteries, then it has to give up firepower, maneuverability, and/or consumables. Would you still want the WV then?

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1 minute ago, AbyssAngkor said:

IMO, they really can't do the 1944 version of West Virginia at tier 7 while keeping all of the advantages post modernization. It outright surpasses the Colorado in every way unless they heavily tweak the WV to match tier 7 performance.

I get why players want the 44 WV. Mid tier American standard BBs are a difficult bunch to grind, and even fewer players enjoy playing them competitively. West Virginia would bring a much wanted quality of life improvement compared to the existing tech tree. But if we squeeze WV into tier 7, it won't be what players would want.

Prime example is the Duke of York. Compared to the tech tree version of KGV, DoY has 1 less heal and slower reload for better AAA and hydro. If WV gets better AAA, TDS, and secondary batteries, then it has to give up firepower, maneuverability, and/or consumables. Would you still want the WV then?

I don't think the West Virginia has to give up anything to stay at tier 7. It doesn't matter that it would be better in every way than the Colorado.......just because Wargaming made the Colorado the worst POS battleship in the US line should not gimp them from giving us a decent battleship that closes the gap between American and the German, British, and French battleships. 

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12 minutes ago, AbyssAngkor said:

IMO, they really can't do the 1944 version of West Virginia at tier 7 while keeping all of the advantages post modernization. It outright surpasses the Colorado in every way unless they heavily tweak the WV to match tier 7 performance.

I get why players want the 44 WV. Mid tier American standard BBs are a difficult bunch to grind, and even fewer players enjoy playing them competitively. West Virginia would bring a much wanted quality of life improvement compared to the existing tech tree. But if we squeeze WV into tier 7, it won't be what players would want.

Prime example is the Duke of York. Compared to the tech tree version of KGV, DoY has 1 less heal and slower reload for better AAA and hydro. If WV gets better AAA, TDS, and secondary batteries, then it has to give up firepower, maneuverability, and/or consumables. Would you still want the WV then?

Lets be honest Wargaming deliberately made the Colorado trash, they did it to encourage people to free xp past her, IE spend money to avoid a painful grind. They do that with one ship per line, the Japanese was the Furitaka and the Izumo....their strategy is that if they can make a ship bad enough in a line most people will spend real money to free XP past her. West Virginia belongs at T7 in her full glory, sure Wargaming will take some heat for pay to win but even in her full glory she won't be as good as the Germans, British, or French, just much closer to them in performance than the Colorado is now. 

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Colorado is one of only 2 tech tree BBs with access to 406mm guns at tier 7. The ability to overmatch tier 9 cruiser bow armor is pretty important. It also has a superior damage repair party that recovers more health compared to all other BBs (even the British ones at tier 7). The lower health pool was buffed to 59000, which is on par Gneisenau. It has the second best main battery accuracy/sigma (after Nagato) of the tier. The only downside is the low top speed.

Tell me how the Colorado is behind all other BBs.

Edited by AbyssAngkor
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the players here have a point,it's not our fault that WG made colorado pure garbage,and that shouldn't stop them from creating a tier7 WV,i would say it's similar to la galisso and de grasse but now la galisso have MBR,lowering the gap of prem ship and tech tree,colorado needs some heavy buffs to get competitive with a "what if" WV tier7.

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33 minutes ago, AbyssAngkor said:

IMO, they really can't do the 1944 version of West Virginia at tier 7 while keeping all of the advantages post modernization. It outright surpasses the Colorado in every way unless they heavily tweak the WV to match tier 7 performance.

I get why players want the 44 WV. Mid tier American standard BBs are a difficult bunch to grind, and even fewer players enjoy playing them competitively. West Virginia would bring a much wanted quality of life improvement compared to the existing tech tree. But if we squeeze WV into tier 7, it won't be what players would want.

Prime example is the Duke of York. Compared to the tech tree version of KGV, DoY has 1 less heal and slower reload for better AAA and hydro. If WV gets better AAA, TDS, and secondary batteries, then it has to give up firepower, maneuverability, and/or consumables. Would you still want the WV then?

It's really just a slower Scharnhorst with no torpedoes. WV is not nearly as overpowered in T7 as you think.

 

It is in no way Tier 8 material. Not even the ghost of a chance.

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4 minutes ago, AbyssAngkor said:

Colorado is one of only 2 tech tree BBs with access to 406mm guns at tier 7. The ability to overmatch tier 9 cruiser bow armor is pretty important. It also has a superior damage repair party that recovers more health compared to all other BBs (even the British ones at tier 7). It has the second best main battery accuracy/sigma (after Nagato) of the tier. The only downside is the low top speed.

Tell me how the Colorado is behind all other BBs.

at tier7,speed start to become the main stat,colorado just can't dictate the engagements. all that firepower won't save her when a battle line is taken by enemy and her speed prevents her from escaping the enemy fire. colorado guns are pretty good,no one can deny but it's one of the few things she have at her disposal,the damage repair party can be overmatched by HE spam since she is covered everywhere with 25mm plating.

and i'm not even talking about her AA,while it's good,currently AA is a trivial stat,it can be destroyed by enemy fire,you might not even see a CV and a competent CV player can break her AA defenses.

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14 minutes ago, AbyssAngkor said:

Colorado is one of only 2 tech tree BBs with access to 406mm guns at tier 7. The ability to overmatch tier 9 cruiser bow armor is pretty important. It also has a superior damage repair party that recovers more health compared to all other BBs (even the British ones at tier 7). The lower health pool was buffed to 59000, which is on par Gneisenau. It has the second best main battery accuracy/sigma (after Nagato) of the tier. The only downside is the low top speed.

Tell me how the Colorado is behind all other BBs.

It's got low health for its tonnage, for one. The superheal was supposed to mitigate that, but really WG should just give it the correct health value.

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18 minutes ago, AbyssAngkor said:

Colorado is one of only 2 tech tree BBs with access to 406mm guns at tier 7. The ability to overmatch tier 9 cruiser bow armor is pretty important. It also has a superior damage repair party that recovers more health compared to all other BBs (even the British ones at tier 7). The lower health pool was buffed to 59000, which is on par Gneisenau. It has the second best main battery accuracy/sigma (after Nagato) of the tier. The only downside is the low top speed.

Tell me how the Colorado is behind all other BBs.

Look at the server stats, Colorado is firmly in last place by a decent margin.

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10 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

It's really just a slower Scharnhorst with no torpedoes. WV is not nearly as overpowered in T7 as you think.

 

It is in no way Tier 8 material. Not even the ghost of a chance.

Even a proposed full 1944 rebuild WV would get SMASHED by a Scharnhorst or Gniesenau. It can't run, the German turtleback armor will protect her as she gets close enough to torp for the win. 

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5 minutes ago, Theokolese said:

Even a proposed full 1944 rebuild WV would get SMASHED by a Scharnhorst or Gniesenau.

and that's a good thing :)

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10 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

It's got low health for its tonnage, for one. The superheal was supposed to mitigate that, but really WG should just give it the correct health value.

They did.  It got buffed earlier this year.  The B hull now has 59,300 health.

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21 minutes ago, Theokolese said:

Even a proposed full 1944 rebuild WV would get SMASHED by a Scharnhorst or Gniesenau. It can't run, the German turtleback armor will protect her as she gets close enough to torp for the win. 

I haven't fought them in Colorado yet, haven't played it much, but I do know that Nagato possesses the punch to make Scharnhorst and Gneisnau think twice. The best ones are the ones who think they're immune to citadel hits.

 

I can't imagine CO being much different, but I'd have to test to see if the weakpoints still work for the 406mm guns.

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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Nagato's strength comes in her ability to actually kite semi-effectively because of her noticeably higher speed. A Colorado will just be chased down and killed in a situation where she is forced to 1v1 one of the Ugly Sisters. I've been on the giving and receiving end of that fight too many times to really give Colorado or any other 21 knot battleship much of a chance.

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As one who ground through CO, she's a tough ship to learn. She's a beast in a brawl if you have the manual secondaries and those 16" guns are just nasty in brawl. Edit: Angling her properly will get a lot of bounced shells for the enemy as she's set up well for that. /Edit That being said, at long range the two-shell dispersion makes her virtually useless. I sold her off as soon as I managed enough ship XP to get the NC. The only T7 ship I'll keep will be Gneisnau even though I'll do the grind through her for the Bismark.  

The NC & Bismark will be as high as I'll go. I have no interest in T9-10 ships.

 

Edited by Tecelote

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Let’s be honest, with how poorly the 5”/38 Mark 12 is represented in-game, would post-refit West Virginia actually see any tangible improvement in her secondary batteries? Let’s quickly crunch the numbers here.

West Virginia post-refit had eight 5”/38 per side, each firing 10 RPM out to 5 km, with a DPM of 144,000 per side. Currently, Colorado has five 5”/51 and four 5”/25 per side, with rate of fire of 8.6 RPM and 13.3 RPM respectively, out to 5 km. This results in a DPM of 173,160 per side. In other words, if the 5”/38 remains as is in-game, the West Virginia’s secondary performance would be poorer than the Colorado’s. Admittedly I'm not taking into account the firing arcs, but nevertheless, these are the numbers. In fact, the West Virginia would essentially be trading secondary performance for anti-aircraft performance and perhaps better torpedo SPS. With this kind of tradeoff I think West Virginia can even keep the Colorado’s improved heal and not be grossly unbalanced at Tier 7.

Furthermore, many aspects of the refit such as automatic gunlaying (or RPC) would not be a factor in terms of gameplay. According to Friedman, the displacements of the post-refit Colorado and West Virginia weren't very different either.

Edited by icyplanetnhc

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Oh so we can have Texas at tier5 better in almost everything then New York but  Wee Vee can not be done?

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25 minutes ago, icyplanetnhc said:

Let’s be honest, with how poorly the 5”/38 Mark 12 is represented in-game, would post-refit West Virginia actually see any tangible improvement in her secondary batteries? Let’s quickly crunch the numbers here.

West Virginia post-refit had eight 5”/38 per side, each firing 10 RPM out to 5 km, with a DPM of 144,000 per side. Currently, Colorado has five 5”/51 and four 5”/25 per side, with rate of fire of 8.6 RPM and 13.3 RPM respectively, out to 5 km. This results in a DPM of 173,160 per side. In other words, if the 5”/38 remains as is in-game, the West Virginia’s secondary performance would be poorer than the Colorado’s. Admittedly I'm not taking into account the firing arcs, but nevertheless, these are the numbers. In fact, the West Virginia would essentially be trading secondary performance for anti-aircraft performance and perhaps better torpedo SPS. With this kind of tradeoff I think West Virginia can even keep the Colorado’s improved heal and not be grossly unbalanced.

Furthermore, many aspects of the refit such as automatic gunlaying (or RPC) would not be a factor in terms of gameplay. According to Friedman, the displacements of the post-refit Colorado and West Virginia weren't very different either.

That’s why they need to giver her the ROF and Range of Massachusetts 5”/38s.   Just not the accuracy bonus.

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1 hour ago, Big_Spud said:

Nagato's strength comes in her ability to actually kite semi-effectively because of her noticeably higher speed. A Colorado will just be chased down and killed in a situation where she is forced to 1v1 one of the Ugly Sisters. I've been on the giving and receiving end of that fight too many times to really give Colorado or any other 21 knot battleship much of a chance.

Ditto. In any other T7 BB I regard Colorado-s as food. The guns are nasty, but she is not difficult to cit, burns easily, and cant run from you. And however good those shells are, there are only 8 of them.

Same for any DD I am in. Another disadvantage of Colorado is that it is always racing to get to the battle, meaning that it drives for long periods in straight lines. It's usually an easy torp target. 

 

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I think west virginia 44 should be premium T7 to hell with the colorado, i don't think the colorado is terrible but what US BB at T7 isn't going to make it look bad. I think this is a special case where in order to have a T7 premium US BB its just going to be better than tech tree, unless WGing nerfs it to the point its worthless. Just my opinion.

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6 hours ago, KiyoSenkan said:

I haven't fought them in Colorado yet, haven't played it much, but I do know that Nagato possesses the punch to make Scharnhorst and Gneisnau think twice. The best ones are the ones who think they're immune to citadel hits.

 

I can't imagine CO being much different, but I'd have to test to see if the weakpoints still work for the 406mm guns.

You don't have to citadel the twins. You can shred them through the upper belt with AP. They eat full-damage pens all day long through the upper belt. I've never had a problem with the twins in Colorado … unless I didn't spot one until it was too close. They don't really hit that hard if you don't let them surprise  you at close range. Colorado's big problem is map control. It simply has none because it is so slow. You are very dependent on your team to push, cap and reveal enemies because you are too slow to help with that. It can't do anything about enemies kiting away from it either, especially HE slinging cruisers. I've never found same-tier BBs to be a big problem in Colorado. 

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7 hours ago, KiyoSenkan said:

It's really just a slower Scharnhorst with no torpedoes. WV is not nearly as overpowered in T7 as you think.

 

It is in no way Tier 8 material. Not even the ghost of a chance.

That's what I think as well. The problem is less that WV is overpowered at T7 and more that it is massively better than Colorado. West Virginia's beam was increased giving her more tonnage and HP, and her secondaries were all replaced with a set of turreted 5/38s like Alabama and Massachusetts in-game.  I agree with the opinion that they should put Maryland in her end-war configuration as the line T7 and make West Virginia the T7 premium.  Maryland was pretty close to WV so the difference isn't that huge. Then can then put Colorado as the old A hull down on T6. Colorado was barely upgraded so there isn't that huge a difference between her original commissioned state in the 1920s and how she was in 1941.

Honestly though I have no idea why they think the USN BB line needs another T6 BB. Arizona works fine. There is very little playstyle difference between Arizona and A hull Colorado except trading 12x14" guns for 8x16" and I'm not sure that is a great trade on that tier. 

Another suggestion I liked was @LittleWhiteMouse's. She said in a thread I started a month or so ago that she had been suggesting to them to try something interesting with WV like they originally planned for Duke of York. Another possibility might be to give her fewer heals and a funky repair party like October Revolution. The problem for WV isn't that she is overpowered on T7, it's that she is flat out better than Colorado. 

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Oh look, another West Virginia thread.  West Virginia could fit at tier VII.  It would be a mistake on Wargaming's part to put her there, but they could do it.  Here's some (but not all) of the reasons why:

  1. First and foremost, she would be hands-down superior to Colorado and not by a small margin.
    There are ways around this, such as making her really weird like one of the test-builds of Duke of York (no Repair Party).  Another alternative is to buff Colorado to a significant degree until there's performance parity between the two.  That opens a whole list of additional problems as to how to address any perceived lack of performance.  In any case, doing so would bump something else down into the dregs of being last-place at tier VII and then people will insist that gets buffed.  The power creep cycles on.

    The final alternative is for Wargaming to leave Colorado as is and shoe-horn in another premium blatantly superior to its tech tree counterpart.  Hrm, let's all think for a moment how well certain sections of the community will respond to that.
     
  2. West Virginia would have to give up some of her historical features which made her special.
    Assuming we do shoe horn her in and we're aiming for a Nagato-level power level, we don't have a lot of wiggle room once we factor in her buffed anti-aircraft performance and defense.  That massively buffed AA and improved torpedo protection are "purchased" at the expense of having nice traits elsewhere.  Fun consumables?  Forget it, you have great AA.  Improved sigma to reflect her amazing accuracy?  Sorry, you already got a buffed displacement and anti-torpedo bulges.  The list goes on.  Historically, Wargaming tends to favour gimping the offense of premiums in favour of padding out anti-aircraft firepower or defense for premiums.  It's easier to balance that way.  So expect a 1.8 sigma West Virginia at tier VII, which would be a bloody shame.
     
  3. If you don't like playing Colorado now, you're not going to like playing a slightly-upgraded Colorado at tier VII.
    See above.  We don't have a lot of wiggle room to make West Virginia unique unless we go really, REALLY weird and drop something drastic... like heals.  And Wargaming may be disinclined to go that route depending on the niche West Virginia is meant to play.  If she's meant to be a low skill-floor premium, then we're not going to get anything weird and you're going to get effectively another Colorado clone with worse-performing guns and better defense. 

This doesn't automagically mean she should be placed at tier VIII.  However, placing her at tier VIII suddenly opens up a lot of opportunities to make her special.  Going back to "purchasing" perks, because West Virginia is so slow, this gives her a lot of currency for affording buffs to make her comfortable to play -- things that reflect her historical performance.  Massachusetts secondaries, improved accuracy on guns, consumables like you wouldn't believe, improved manoeuvrability / concealment, you name it. 

Let's be clear, West Virginia in her modernized state was never (EVER) going to be an optimal, competitive ship.  What we can get is a fun, interesting ship to play.  But you're not likely to find that at tier VII.

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5 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Ditto. In any other T7 BB I regard Colorado-s as food. The guns are nasty, but she is not difficult to cit, burns easily, and cant run from you. And however good those shells are, there are only 8 of them.

Same for any DD I am in. Another disadvantage of Colorado is that it is always racing to get to the battle, meaning that it drives for long periods in straight lines. It's usually an easy torp target. 

 

I find the Col isn't as easy to cit as the nagato.   Nagato to me wasn't that fun of a grind, because it felt like everyone and their mother had no issue penning me from about every angle.  I always enjoy shooting nagatos in my BBs especially, as you can delete them if they show a little too much side.  I really enjoyed the Col back when i grinded it, as the guns were very reliable unlike the NM and they hit hard.  of course we have had a lot of new ships/lines come out since then.  i would guess if i grinded it today, it wouldn't be that fun.  I still have the ship in my port.  I should probably sell it as there isn't much reason to keep it outside of nostalgia. 

 

anyways, back to the col.   The superstructer on it and the NM are so massive that even when angled, you are an easy target to farm.  i absolutely love shooting these BBs with my DDs or cruisers with AP, thanks to all the full pens you can get.(hello Fiji)

 

as for driving in straight lines, i do see that a lot, and i cant blame them.  any turns will make it take even longer to get to the battle.  I hate spawning on the flanks in those slow BBs.  The best place for those BBs is right in the middle, so the time to get from one area to the next isn't long.   It is soooooooo painful watching people sail them to map edge or some far flank.   They wont be in the fight for the next 10 min+   unless the enemy does a similar move.  and if the enemy does a similar move, they are probably dead as they cant get away.  i try to talk people out of it, but they will do what they do. 

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