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WES_HoundDog

Do you run IFHE on your British BB's?

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Pretty much the title.   I know some of them citadel some ships with it.   I'm at the King George right now moving on up.   Wondering if it's something people take. 

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no IFHE on any of my British BB's, in fact I seldom use HE with tier VI and above BB of any nation, though I do sometimes load HE at the start of a game if its a DD heavy game, but I have normally pressed the AP button once, so AP is automatically loaded the next salvo.

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No. It's pointless. IFHE on any BB is basically for secondaries. RN BB secondaries suck. Anyone who told you IFHE on any BB helps with citadels is misinformed. IFHE is useless on any guns above 155mm. It's a valid "fun" build for KM, French, or the Mass if you want to maximize a secondary build. But not useful for competitive. 

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11 hours ago, WES_HoundDog said:

Pretty much the title.   I know some of them citadel some ships with it.   I'm at the King George right now moving on up.   Wondering if it's something people take. 

Why? The BB HE shells already have a lot of pen, why do you need more? KGV has 356mm HE which pens 88mm of armor, crossing the 50mm threshold. Why would you want 115mm of pen with IFHE? I don't think off the top of my head that it will pen more cruiser belt armor. Just swap to AP if you have a nice, juicy cruiser broadside. (new) The four points can be used better somewhere else

EDIT: Fixing all the UK HE pens as the UK BBs get 1/4 pen.

 

Monarch has 381mm guns and pens 94mm of armor. IFHE makes it 123mm.

 

Lion has 406mm guns and pens 101mm of armor and IFHE makes it 131mm.

 

The 419mm gun pens 104mm of armor and IFHE makes it 136mm.

 

The 457mm gun pens 113mm of armor and IFHE makes it 148mm. 

 

I think that there are way too many other more valuable uses for 4 points than for IFHE for the UK BBs as the HE pen values don't have many thresholds over 50mm.

 

I'm going to put IFHE on Massachusetts and Gascogne for the HE pewpew of the secondary guns. I won't care about the main guns.

Edited by Kizarvexis

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I have never fired a single salvo of HE from Warspite or Queen Elizabeth.  I tend to treat the KG5 as a supercruiser so I switch it up a bit.  I never would spend 4 captain's points on IFHE for ANY battleship.  Concealment or AFT is a much better choice.  AFT for secondaries instead of IFHE.

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i feel like there are better skills to take that are worth 4 points.  FP/CE.  maybe even AFT for higher tiers.     You could use that 4 points on a combo of 2  2 point skills or a 1 and 3 point skill combo. JoAT, AR, EM for 2 point skills.  For 3 point skills, BoS, Vig, SI, and maybe BFT if you want more AA power.  PT, EL, and PM for one pointers. 

 

While getting cits with the RN BB HE is funny, HE shouldn't be your main ammo.  You should be switching between ammo types depending on MM and who you are fighting. 

 

I had this match today where i mainly used AP outside of nose in BBs.
 

Spoiler


04FD1C5A63DB468734FD70A4D782536BD59795C7

 

6C411FE93D782B6E90BFDF5A487AC47DA1A6AE14

 

 

62B57AEFDFF3BBCA877483DC8FBF0B37902CC232

There were 2 times i wish i had AP loaded when i had HE, as i could of deleted or killed off an enemy sooner. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Captain_Slattery said:

I have never fired a single salvo of HE from Warspite or Queen Elizabeth.  I tend to treat the KG5 as a supercruiser so I switch it up a bit.  I never would spend 4 captain's points on IFHE for ANY battleship.  Concealment or AFT is a much better choice.  AFT for secondaries instead of IFHE.

Those 2 BBs are really the only 2 out of all the RN BBs where you should almost never fire HE.  Their fire chance isn't as high compared to the rest of the line, and the guns are fantastic.   it felt soooo good having reliable guns while grinding the QE.  I am waiting for a module sale to kit out my warspite before i try her out. 

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I got CE.    in the battles right now there are CV's everywhere.  I'm looking at increasing my AA range captain ability because this 3.5 range aa isn't good enough.   I mean 2 full drops from a siapan, and a fighter fight over my head and still killed a grand total of 0 planes,  I mean who the f balanced premium cv's?  Anyway but honestly there isn't nearly as many CV's at higher tiers. so that leaves  fire retardant? 

Edited by WES_HoundDog

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38 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

Those 2 BBs are really the only 2 out of all the RN BBs where you should almost never fire HE.  Their fire chance isn't as high compared to the rest of the line, and the guns are fantastic.   it felt soooo good having reliable guns while grinding the QE.  I am waiting for a module sale to kit out my warspite before i try her out. 

I run the same skipper on both.  I use BFT, AFT.  Warspite's secondaries get buffed nicely and the Queen's AA is a 78.

Warspite is a very fun ship to drive.

p.s. - I didn't fire much in the way of HE in the Orion, either.

Edited by Captain_Slattery

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So one reason that may be overlooked.   I just had 2 HE shells shatter on the side of a well angled cruiser.  Now i know these shells can pen and citadel that ship and others like it on broadside.   Now since HE doesn't glance it's a simple check for pen or shatter based on the penetration value and amount of armor * armor angle or in other words, how much additional armor the shell has to go through because of the angle effect.   theoretically, with IFHE would allow you much better  pen and citadel angles on cruisers.

Edited by WES_HoundDog

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Don't the RN BB already have 1/4 HE pen built in? Or have I been misinformed all this time?

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Just now, Super_Dreadnought said:

Don't the RN BB already have 1/4 HE pen built in? Or have I been misinformed all this time?

 

Quote

HE penetrationEdit

Unlike AP shells, the penetration of HE shells does not depend on the impact angle or velocity---rather, each HE shell has a fixed penetration value which is compared to the raw thickness of the armor. This is computed using the following steps:

  1. Start with the shell diameter in mm.
  2. Multiply by a factor:
    • 1/4 for British battleships, German battleships (including 150 and 128 mm secondaries), German cruisers (tiers IV-X), and Japanese 100mm guns (Primaries and secondaries).
    • 1/6 for all other shells.
  3. Round to the nearest integer, with X.5 usually rounding down (contrary to common convention), though even this is not consistent. This is the shatter threshold, the minimum armor thickness in mm needed to shatter the shell.
  4. If the commander has the Inertia Fuse for HE Shells skill, multiply the original (stock) shatter threshold by 1.3. Do not round again.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

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2 hours ago, DouglasMacAwful said:

IFHE is useless on any guns above 155mm. 

IFHE on the Henri lets you pen 50mm armor

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6 minutes ago, pinkship9001 said:

IFHE on the Henri lets you pen 50mm armor

 

It's not worth the 4 point tho. Way too situationnal to work. Except Moksva, Khaba and some BB part you won't greatly benefit from it. 

 

 

But OP why are you looking to citadel some ship with HE ? Just load AP 

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10 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

 

It's not worth the 4 point tho. Way too situationnal to work. Except Moksva, Khaba and some BB part you won't greatly benefit from it. 

 

 

But OP why are you looking to citadel some ship with HE ? Just load AP 

well, considering last night i switched to ap to lay into a gnisenou at 6k flat broadside.   Hitem with 4 shells 2 pens 2 over pens for 4k damage.  He had no problem returning twice that with half the guns while i was angled about as good as it gets.   So basically i'm looking at AP being useless in many situations to switch to while trying to get the most out of HE when i do fire it.

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4 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

well, considering last night i switched to ap to lay into a gnisenou at 6k flat broadside.   Hitem with 4 shells 2 pens 2 over pens for 4k damage.  He had no problem returning twice that with half the guns while i was angled about as good as it gets.   So basically i'm looking at AP being useless in many situations to switch to while trying to get the most out of HE when i do fire it.

IIRC, Gneisenau has 170+mm belt armor, so even the Conquerors 457mm HE shell with IFHE won't pen the belt. You can shoot HE at the bow/stern and superstructure, but no BB main guns need IFHE to pen those.

 

You can pen cruisers with the IFHE UK BBs, but might as well use AP and spend the 4 points elsewhere. But nothing stops you from using IFHE on BBs if you want.

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12 hours ago, WES_HoundDog said:

So one reason that may be overlooked.   I just had 2 HE shells shatter on the side of a well angled cruiser.  Now i know these shells can pen and citadel that ship and others like it on broadside.   Now since HE doesn't glance it's a simple check for pen or shatter based on the penetration value and amount of armor * armor angle or in other words, how much additional armor the shell has to go through because of the angle effect.   theoretically, with IFHE would allow you much better  pen and citadel angles on cruisers.

Tier VII and above US cruiser belts will simply be too thick and you'll still shatter shells on them.  It is not an effective use of points.

25 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

well, considering last night i switched to ap to lay into a gnisenou at 6k flat broadside.   Hitem with 4 shells 2 pens 2 over pens for 4k damage.  He had no problem returning twice that with half the guns while i was angled about as good as it gets.   So basically i'm looking at AP being useless in many situations to switch to while trying to get the most out of HE when i do fire it.

Insufficient statistical sample.  In other words, you got unlucky.  Aiming for the belt you could have hit him for as much as 35,000.  You won't get citadels on German BBs at that range, but each pen is 3500 damage.  In order to have gotten two pens and two overpens for about 4k damage you'd need to have been shooting an area that was already damage saturated, likely his superstructure.  You aimed too high.

Edited by Helstrem

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12 hours ago, WES_HoundDog said:

So one reason that may be overlooked.   I just had 2 HE shells shatter on the side of a well angled cruiser.  Now i know these shells can pen and citadel that ship and others like it on broadside.   Now since HE doesn't glance it's a simple check for pen or shatter based on the penetration value and amount of armor * armor angle or in other words, how much additional armor the shell has to go through because of the angle effect.   theoretically, with IFHE would allow you much better  pen and citadel angles on cruisers.

if they are angled, you shoot their nose or superstructer with HE.   or, if the cruisers bow armor cant bounce your AP, you shoot AP into it for full pens and cits.

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British AP is really good once you get close in. My highest damage game ever came in HMS Lion, using a mix of HE and AP. I started the match with high explosive loaded, set lots of fires, damaged modules, and annoyed people. As the fighting drew in under 12km, I switched to AP and smashed through citadels of tier IX and X battleships and cruisers. You'll get plenty of folks who assume you don't have AP loaded and show you broadside. If you're playing smartly, you can severely punish that disrespect. It's a foolish captain who relies solely on one type of ammunition for British battleships. 

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27 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

Tier VII and above US cruiser belts will simply be too thick and you'll still shatter shells on them.  It is not an effective use of points.

Insufficient statistical sample.  In other words, you got unlucky.  Aiming for the belt you could have hit him for as much as 35,000.  You won't get citadels on German BBs at that range, but each pen is 3500 damage.  In order to have gotten two pens and two overpens for about 4k damage you'd need to have been shooting an area that was already damage saturated, likely his superstructure.  You aimed too high.

ok, actually it was twice, same results.

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14 hours ago, DouglasMacAwful said:

No. It's pointless. IFHE on any BB is basically for secondaries. RN BB secondaries suck. Anyone who told you IFHE on any BB helps with citadels is misinformed. IFHE is useless on any guns above 155mm. It's a valid "fun" build for KM, French, or the Mass if you want to maximize a secondary build. But not useful for competitive. 

 

Not entirely true.

 

IFHE works very well on Dimitri Donskoi and those are 180mm. guns.

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41 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

IIRC, Gneisenau has 170+mm belt armor, so even the Conquerors 457mm HE shell with IFHE won't pen the belt. You can shoot HE at the bow/stern and superstructure, but no BB main guns need IFHE to pen those.

 

You can pen cruisers with the IFHE UK BBs, but might as well use AP and spend the 4 points elsewhere. But nothing stops you from using IFHE on BBs if you want.

This made me think of another reason for IFHE.     It seems DD's are complaining about "double dipping".  Shells that do more damage then that are supposed to because they overpen parts of the ship and explode in others.    Why wouldn't this increase your damage significant;y.  I can see this causing a lot of extra damage to ships.

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4 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

ok, actually it was twice, same results.

You aimed too high.

1 minute ago, WES_HoundDog said:

This made me think of another reason for IFHE.     It seems DD's are complaining about "double dipping".  Shells that do more damage then that are supposed to because they overpen parts of the ship and explode in others.    Why wouldn't this increase your damage significant;y.  I can see this causing a lot of extra damage to ships.

HE does not double dip.  The double dipping bug has to do with AP scoring both an overpen, which HE cannot do, and a regular pen, which BB HE will always do against any DD.

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6 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

This made me think of another reason for IFHE.     It seems DD's are complaining about "double dipping".  Shells that do more damage then that are supposed to because they overpen parts of the ship and explode in others.    Why wouldn't this increase your damage significant;y.  I can see this causing a lot of extra damage to ships.

 

It's not that IFHE doesn't "work" on higher caliber guns, it does. It's just really (very) situational a lot of times and often doesn't justify the 4 pt Capt cost. There's just no point to it on some ships. 

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