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Goodwood_Alpha

West Virginia — a compromise

Would you buy WeeVee if it was released thus?  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you buy WeeVee if it was released thus?

    • Yes (the bacon is implied).
      24
    • No.
      25
    • No, but I'll still have that bacon.
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In the spirit of extending an olive branch to Wargaming and the community, I would like to float a compromise solution:

Clearly, the developers want to find a use for the old Colorado-class stock hull. That's fine, no one wants to waste such assets, especially given all that goes into making them. On the other hand, the community reaction (at least, on the NA server) to the continued trend of "re-using stock hulls as premiums" is well-known. I cannot say for certain whether this mentality has led to a decrease in direct purchases of the Ashitaka and Mutsu, but it seems like if that is the case, then the reason why is kind of self-explanatory. That said, it is very clear that the NA userbase, and possibly others, really really want to see a proper WeeVee in her late-war configuration as a Tier VII premium ship, rather than her possible Pearl Harbor-era setup down at Tier VI. As far as I can remember, people on these forums have been clamoring for a refitted West Virginia as a Tier VII premium since before open beta (given that the American battleships and Japanese carriers were released while the game was still in closed beta).

Therefore, I propose the following: Release the WeeVee as a Tier VII premium ship, but give her two options for her hull and fire control (either as separate components or integrated into one). Hull A would be her Pearl Harbor fit, while Hull B would be her 1944/45 refit configuration, while the two fire control options would tie into the fact that, during her reconstruction, WeeVee was given vastly improved radar-assisted main battery fire control. Each hull would come with its own unique camouflage (gray and white with natural teak deck for Hull A, dazzle camouflage with blue deck for Hull B).

One of the underlying issues behind introducing the West Virginia into the game in her final configuration has often been discussed. Some have said that her dual-purpose secondaries, plus the heaps of Bofors and Oerlikons bestowed upon her, made her overpowered in terms of secondary and AA armament for Tier VII, and thought that Tier VIII would be better suited. However, her slow speed and less than optimal bow/stern armor leaves her quite handicapped at a tier wherein she will see Tier X ships on a regular basis. Further, with the introduction of the German and French battleships, with Gneisenau and Lyon being noteworthy examples, those early arguments against a Tier VII rebuilt WeeVee have very demonstrably fallen by the wayside. With the success of the Massachusetts as an American brawler with good secondaries, it seems as though this would also be the perfect segue for the much-craved version of the West Virginia that many would very much like to see.

As for pricing...well, I for one would quite happily pay an extra ten dollars (or slightly more), if it meant that I could have this option. Not only does that give us players that much more choice, but it also allows for possible further uses for her in future Operations (for example, using Hull A in a possible Pearl Harbor scenario to showcase the carrier revamp), since Wargaming has demonstrated abundant willingness to have bots driving premium ships in that game mode.

What do you guys think?

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I think if they were smart---and while they have done some great things, many decisions leave us scratching our heads--they would read the room. Make the T6 Maryland or Tennessee, and take the time to make Wee Vee along the lines that @Lert and @Little White Mouse proposed. That option would likely see TWO premium sales vice a comparatively anemic sale of a much desired but watered down ship. After seeing the Hood video, I understand that developing a ship is a massive undertaking. having said that, a little pain in the short game will provide huge payoffs in the long game. 

You want player retention and game longevity? Listen to your players and do things RIGHT.

The t7 A/B hull option imo would not work. The B hull would be OP at t7, and the Colorado makes the A hull redundant. T8, like Lert and Mouse suggest, is doable.

As an aside, if WG incorporated STS as armor, it would go a long way in making the US Standards as well as other platforms more viable.

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No...because frankly as put the West Virginia as it stands is fodder for when it gets uptiered...and believe me....tier 6 gets uptiered alot. 

It'll be fat, slow, and easy to kill...wait for the CV rework and it's 1941 all over again. 

Most of us who hate this idea in its current form are looking ahead, we know where the power creep is going....you release her now...you put in a bad premium when a higher selling one is taken out of the pool when the CV rework is in full swing. 

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How would t7 44WV b op?

We dont need a 3rd t8 when the existing 2 fill the role of gun boat and secondary brawler, as well as being superior in every way that matters.

We already have AZ at t6. If we need anything at t6, its a USN cruiser...

As for a WV44 bundle id buy?  Id buy T7 WV44 with a more Massachusetts secondary playstyle as well as coming with Lt. Cmdr John S. Harper, the dmg control officer who became cpt of the ship during pearl.  His specialty being: jack of all trades being 10% faster cool down and BOS being 22.5% up from 15% and a special perk that increases DCP and RP duration by 5s.

Id get top bundle for that.

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39 minutes ago, BBsquid said:

I think if they were smart---and while they have done some great things, many decisions leave us scratching our heads--they would read the room. Make the T6 Maryland or Tennessee, and take the time to make Wee Vee along the lines that @Lert and @Little White Mouse proposed. That option would likely see TWO premium sales vice a comparatively anemic sale of a much desired but watered down ship. After seeing the Hood video, I understand that developing a ship is a massive undertaking. having said that, a little pain in the short game will provide huge payoffs in the long game. 

You want player retention and game longevity? Listen to your players and do things RIGHT.

The t7 A/B hull option imo would not work. The B hull would be OP at t7, and the Colorado makes the A hull redundant. T8, like Lert and Mouse suggest, is doable.

As an aside, if WG incorporated STS as armor, it would go a long way in making the US Standards as well as other platforms more viable.

Saying West Virginia is a t8nreminds me of the old KGV arguments of that shop being t8: its not; Neither is a 1944 refit West Virginia. 

Just let her be T7 along side California with her 44 refit we usn drivers have a choice of competitive bb designs to show up with during the next t7 ranked season.

Edited by Crokodone

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5 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

How would t7 44WV b op?

We already have AZ at t6. If we need anything at t6, its a USN cruiser...

 

With the proposed mechanics that Lert and Mouse suggest, WV44 would be OP. Conversely, the nerfs that would have to be implemented to put her at 7 conflict with the '44 rebuild. Take a look at Lert's suggestion; it is balanced and rational, and would I think be just fine at t8.

What prem t6 cruiser do you think we could get/need?

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29 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

How would t7 44WV b op?

We dont need a 3rd t8 when the existing 2 fill the role of gun boat and secondary brawler, as well as being superior in every way that matters.

We already have AZ at t6. If we need anything at t6, its a USN cruiser...

As for a WV44 bundle id buy?  Id buy T7 WV44 with a more Massachusetts secondary playstyle as well as coming with Lt. Cmdr John S. Harper, the dmg control officer who became cpt of the ship during pearl.  His specialty being: jack of all trades being 10% faster cool down and BOS being 22.5% up from 15% and a special perk that increases DCP and RP duration by 5s.

Id get top bundle for that.

"Why would it be OP"

What could possibly be OP about:

16 x 5" guns
40 x 40mm Bofors
50 x 20mm Oerlikon

VS

T6 CV

That is a lot of AA for a t6.
 

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they could try the texas/new york approach or the massachussets/north carolina one.

make the WV a secondary monster while colorado remains the dude that fights at long range.

or WV becomes the AA no flying zone,make the ship excel in one area so colorado don't become obsolete.

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If one looks at WeeVee in pure statistical form and not the "But I want muh AA Refit WeeVee!" then you'll see a 406mm armed Battleship in Tier VI with the very same guns / shells as Tier VII Fully Upgraded Colorado, but mounted on a ship that is as stealthy as the Tier V Pasta Ninja, Caesar.  Tier VI Premium Mutsu is Tier VII Nagato's sister, but she does not have access to the powerful Type 91 AP shells Nagato has.  WV has access to Colorado's powerful shells, but in Tier VI, and with super stealth.

 

She looks really good for a Tier VI BB.

 

I'd likely snag her up.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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2 hours ago, Goodwood_Alpha said:

In the spirit of extending an olive branch to Wargaming and the community, I would like to float a compromise solution:

Clearly, the developers want to find a use for the old Colorado-class stock hull. That's fine, no one wants to waste such assets, especially given all that goes into making them. On the other hand, the community reaction (at least, on the NA server) to the continued trend of "re-using stock hulls as premiums" is well-known. I cannot say for certain whether this mentality has led to a decrease in direct purchases of the Ashitaka and Mutsu, but it seems like if that is the case, then the reason why is kind of self-explanatory. That said, it is very clear that the NA userbase, and possibly others, really really want to see a proper WeeVee in her late-war configuration as a Tier VII premium ship, rather than her possible Pearl Harbor-era setup down at Tier VI. As far as I can remember, people on these forums have been clamoring for a refitted West Virginia as a Tier VII premium since before open beta (given that the American battleships and Japanese carriers were released while the game was still in closed beta).

Therefore, I propose the following: Release the WeeVee as a Tier VII premium ship, but give her two options for her hull and fire control (either as separate components or integrated into one). Hull A would be her Pearl Harbor fit, while Hull B would be her 1944/45 refit configuration, while the two fire control options would tie into the fact that, during her reconstruction, WeeVee was given vastly improved radar-assisted main battery fire control. Each hull would come with its own unique camouflage (gray and white with natural teak deck for Hull A, dazzle camouflage with blue deck for Hull B).

One of the underlying issues behind introducing the West Virginia into the game in her final configuration has often been discussed. Some have said that her dual-purpose secondaries, plus the heaps of Bofors and Oerlikons bestowed upon her, made her overpowered in terms of secondary and AA armament for Tier VII, and thought that Tier VIII would be better suited. However, her slow speed and less than optimal bow/stern armor leaves her quite handicapped at a tier wherein she will see Tier X ships on a regular basis. Further, with the introduction of the German and French battleships, with Gneisenau and Lyon being noteworthy examples, those early arguments against a Tier VII rebuilt WeeVee have very demonstrably fallen by the wayside. With the success of the Massachusetts as an American brawler with good secondaries, it seems as though this would also be the perfect segue for the much-craved version of the West Virginia that many would very much like to see.

As for pricing...well, I for one would quite happily pay an extra ten dollars (or slightly more), if it meant that I could have this option. Not only does that give us players that much more choice, but it also allows for possible further uses for her in future Operations (for example, using Hull A in a possible Pearl Harbor scenario to showcase the carrier revamp), since Wargaming has demonstrated abundant willingness to have bots driving premium ships in that game mode.

What do you guys think?

What would the reason be for playing the A hull wee bee compared to the b hull wee vee? Or unless you could make it into 2 prems into one with the A hull having tier 6 mm and the b hull having tier 7 mm??

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1 hour ago, The_Painted_Target said:

"Why would it be OP"

What could possibly be OP about:

16 x 5" guns
40 x 40mm Bofors
50 x 20mm Oerlikon

VS

T6 CV

That is a lot of AA for a t6.
 

Yeah, the usn faction flavor is aaa, whats the problem? I mean since no one ever seems to be on support of other buffs for usn line, atleast let them retain the no fly zone aaa.

Edited by KnightFandragon

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

If one looks at WeeVee in pure statistical form and not the "But I want muh AA Refit WeeVee!" then you'll see a 406mm armed Battleship in Tier VI with the very same guns / shells as Tier VII Fully Upgraded Colorado, but mounted on a ship that is as stealthy as the Tier V Pasta Ninja, Caesar.  Tier VI Premium Mutsu is Tier VII Nagato's sister, but she does not have access to the powerful Type 91 AP shells Nagato has.  WV has access to Colorado's powerful shells, but in Tier VI, and with super stealth.

 

She looks really good for a Tier VI BB.

 

I'd likely snag her up.

Hmm if they stick with the old Colorado A hull it won't have the same shells the Hull Colorado had worse shells little to no AA sence it was its 1920s configuration wilts sluggish rudder as well I'm not sure if they will keep it as stock stock Colorado but if it is just the A hull with nothing else it will still struggle at tier 6 with it mostly being inconsistent and hard to play given the accuracy of the Colorado A hull but who know this is all in testing still. 

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1 hour ago, BBsquid said:

With the proposed mechanics that Lert and Mouse suggest, WV44 would be OP. Conversely, the nerfs that would have to be implemented to put her at 7 conflict with the '44 rebuild. Take a look at Lert's suggestion; it is balanced and rational, and would I think be just fine at t8.

What prem t6 cruiser do you think we could get/need?

So you buff her for t8, then say it would be op in t7?  Just start off at t7.

As for cruiser?  Not a clue, idk usn cruisers that well, just know we dont have a t6 usn cruiser prem.

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Make Wee Vee a t8. Give it good range and gun accuracy as well as mass like secondaries. Job done. Its not like a Colorado doesn't see ships that are significantly faster when uptiered.

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45 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

If one looks at WeeVee in pure statistical form and not the "But I want muh AA Refit WeeVee!" then you'll see a 406mm armed Battleship in Tier VI with the very same guns / shells as Tier VII Fully Upgraded Colorado, but mounted on a ship that is as stealthy as the Tier V Pasta Ninja, Caesar.  Tier VI Premium Mutsu is Tier VII Nagato's sister, but she does not have access to the powerful Type 91 AP shells Nagato has.  WV has access to Colorado's powerful shells, but in Tier VI, and with super stealth.

 

She looks really good for a Tier VI BB.

 

I'd likely snag her up.

I agree. I don’t really have a problem with making the old A hull Colorado a tier 6 I just want her to be called Maryland and not West Virginia. 

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40 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

So you buff her for t8, then say it would be op in t7?  Just start off at t7.

As for cruiser?  Not a clue, idk usn cruisers that well, just know we dont have a t6 usn cruiser prem.

One reason might be Colorado is already sitting at 7, and WV44 is significantly improved over the top hull.

Was just thinking Salt Lake City might be a good premium CA.

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T8 West Virginia is a terrible idea. It should be a T7 in the ship's full rebuilt glory.

The Gneisenau and Lyon both have good AAA and secondaries so why can't WV? The fact is that the base Colorado is underpowered so WV won't be anything game breaking.

Just rename the the T6 to Maryland and release it for sale.

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2 hours ago, Cruxdei said:

they could try the texas/new york approach or the massachussets/north carolina one.

make the WV a secondary monster while colorado remains the dude that fights at long range.

or WV becomes the AA no flying zone,make the ship excel in one area so colorado don't become obsolete.

Im thinking you would have to buff the snot out of Colorado and her gunnery to do that. You still have the issue that as a gunboat, WV44 was much improved over any upgrades 'rado received.

At the end of the day, I suppose this would work in a pinch. its certainly better than the t6 WV WG is planning. 

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5 hours ago, BBsquid said:

With the proposed mechanics that Lert and Mouse suggest, WV44 would be OP. Conversely, the nerfs that would have to be implemented to put her at 7 conflict with the '44 rebuild. Take a look at Lert's suggestion; it is balanced and rational, and would I think be just fine at t8.

But at T8 it's a de facto T10. I am skeptical it would work. 

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10 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

But at T8 it's a de facto T10. I am skeptical it would work. 

I think she would suffer no worse than Mass or 'bama, or any other t8 for that matter ASSUMING WG does her right. The speed isnt the issue I think some make it out to be as, while there may be bursts of high speed, most players in t10 matches seem to hover between 1/2 to 3/4 speed; the BBs reversing or creeping bow in at 1/4 speed. 

Off the cuff I was initially in the 'No...she cant be a t8' until I looked at Lert's proposal. I think it can be done. The question is whether or not WG, in their infinite wisdom, would do it CORRECTLY, if they decide to dot it at all.

Give her good concealment as she is small compared to the heavy hitters at t10, good sigma and a respectable range to represent the Puget Sound work, and Mass secondaries. I think she could hold her own.

My issue with t7 is that WV44 is more in line with the fast BBs (obviously not speed wise) after her rebuild than the refits like Colorado received. Lumping her in with 'rado just seems....off.

Edited by BBsquid

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Good idea, but it’s realistically if you have the choice between hull A- pre Pearl Harbor and lacks AA. Or let’s say C hull due to B hull on colorado, C- post Pearl refit, advanced AA, advanced fire control, modern secondaries, and an overall bad***

which one would you chose?

if there was some tier difference that A hull went to t6 and C/B hull went to t7 I’d still go C/B because t6 sees t8s

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I think they already tried that hull at T7.  They removed it. 

I also think that they don't have a refit hull available.

I think idea is bad and should feel bad.

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8 hours ago, The_Painted_Target said:

"Why would it be OP"

What could possibly be OP about:

16 x 5" guns
40 x 40mm Bofors
50 x 20mm Oerlikon

VS

T6 CV

That is a lot of AA for a t6.
 

Gneisenau's top hull. Plus we're talking about Wee Vee 44 FOR TIER SEVEN. Not 6.

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