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Sir_Davos_Seaworth

ALWAYS make time for a quick history lesson.

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Well, despite being drag butt tired, I manged to unlock the Helena tonight. My daughter was looking over my shoulder as I put her "night of remembrance" camo on her... I explained that I really wanted her, as not only was she real, unlike the Dallas, that she had a very interesting history. 

We talked a bit about Pearl Harbor, where she got torpedoed, and my daughter asked me: 

"Is she the one that still cries oil?"

"Nope that is the Arizona, but she was sunk in the same attack. I don't have her, but I can pull up her picture here in port." So I did...we talked about how much oil a ship like that would have on board, etc. 30 seconds here and there can add up to a big deal, IMO. 

Anyway, the Helena might be the best looking CA in my port. Two thumbs waaay up!

rW9gWQH.jpg

 

eqcPnJC.jpg

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Nice history lesson.

 

I got the "Murica camo first and my son loves it.

UPMgLuh.jpg

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I was not aware she was torpedoed at Pearl either. 

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4 minutes ago, dmckay said:

Are there any estimates on how much longer Arizona will leak oil?  

Depends on how long the tanks stay intact. Maybe as much as hundreds to 500 years if the tanks don't fail.

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5 minutes ago, dmckay said:

Are there any estimates on how much longer Arizona will leak oil?  

Until she collapses in a pile of rust under the Memorial, unless they find another way to pump her tanks. They have already tried twice before and could not get everything because of the structural damage to the hulk.

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7 minutes ago, dmckay said:

Are there any estimates on how much longer Arizona will leak oil?  

It is leaking something like 2 gallons a day, with upwards of 500.000 gallons in the oil bunker. 

The real question is how long the oil bunker will remain in tact. 

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I guess I'm going to have to disagree with regards to Helena's "Remembrance Night" camouflage, because I personally don't care for it at all. There's a number of reasons for this: the Navy Blue is way too saturated, red-shifted and SHINY (the real deal would have been more of a very dull, washed-out and slightly lighter blue-gray, while what we get is more of a midnight blue with hints of purple), the Deck Blue is basically the same color when in reality it was a distinctly different shade (as seen on the stock camouflages), and the "torpedo hit" decals and turret markings detract from her appearance (IMHO, she would've been better served with a "From The Depths" treatment).

But as for the spirit of this thread, I certainly agree that having these little historical discussions with our kids is vitally important. It certainly contributed to my own love of history, as you can see in the above paragraph. I also have a fair bit of graphic artistry under my belt, so there's also that angle to consider.

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I wonder why they haven't got a team of divers to drain the Arizona of oil. I realize she's a war grave, but I think that preventing a potential environmental disaster is a decent enough reason to open her up just once.

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The history is important, but tbh I’m also not a fan of the black camo on this ship - particularly the decals over the torpedo hits. 

I preferred one of the other camos (not From the Depths, though) but it wasn’t successful. 

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3 minutes ago, 1Sherman said:

I wonder why they haven't got a team of divers to drain the Arizona of oil. I realize she's a war grave, but I think that preventing a potential environmental disaster is a decent enough reason to open her up just once.

IIRC, they have tried a couple of times, but the damage is too bad. They don't want to uncontrollably release the oil. Unfortunately, the corroding metal may do it for them over time

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Always good to dole out a bit of history, especially when their young. 

 

And yeah, one of those things that to this day has not been solved and no idea the exact impacts it will have one day - when the various wrecks around the world that still have oil in them degrade to a point that it's released to the ocean. Which is another great reason to teach history, lest we forget the lessons of the past and hopefully avoid such conflicts in the future. Areas of Northern France that, at the current rate, won't be habitable for humans, animals, in cases even plants, for another 700 years after WW1, wrecks that can one day release oil into the waters, long forgotten ordnance that never went off - this game here we play is the closest we should come to such a conflict. And not in that Star Trek episode way where the game/sim determines the war and all and just choose the casualties. As the saying goes those who forget history or ignore it are doomed to repeat it. 

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55 minutes ago, dmckay said:

Are there any estimates on how much longer Arizona will leak oil?  

As stated, as long as the hull and tanks maintain their integrity. She had taken on fuel and topped off her tanks before the attack. The crude oil she burned has a higher viscosity than the DFM modern ships burn today. Despite the worries of the tree huggers and their worries, even if the hull collapsed, there would likely be no environmental disaster in Pearl Harbor. The navy would be quick to rig an oil boom around the memorial.

Fun fact: the National Park Service and the Navy laser mapped the hull in the late 70s and early 80s---this is where all the detailed diagrams of the wreck came from. Green Peace and other environmental groups began fielding a plan to break up the hull and remove it while replacing it with an exact replica made of cement. Their thinking was it would remove any possible future oil related disasters.   

Obviously this plan never left the fertile(?) minds and conversations of a select few. The explosion of outrage would have made Fat man and Little Boy look like firecrackers.

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1 hour ago, BBsquid said:

As stated, as long as the hull and tanks maintain their integrity. She had taken on fuel and topped off her tanks before the attack. The crude oil she burned has a higher viscosity than the DFM modern ships burn today. Despite the worries of the tree huggers and their worries, even if the hull collapsed, there would likely be no environmental disaster in Pearl Harbor. The navy would be quick to rig an oil boom around the memorial.

Fun fact: the National Park Service and the Navy laser mapped the hull in the late 70s and early 80s---this is where all the detailed diagrams of the wreck came from. Green Peace and other environmental groups began fielding a plan to break up the hull and remove it while replacing it with an exact replica made of cement. Their thinking was it would remove any possible future oil related disasters.   

Obviously this plan never left the fertile(?) minds and conversations of a select few. The explosion of outrage would have made Fat man and Little Boy look like firecrackers.

Quick as the Navy's response would be, the damage would likely already be done by that point. The response to the BP disaster was fast, but it's still the largest accidental oil spill in history. 

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3 minutes ago, 1Sherman said:

Quick as the Navy's response would be, the damage would likely already be done by that point. The response to the BP disaster was fast, but it's still the largest accidental oil spill in history. 

Except that the Navy is already right there, and that Pearl Harbor has one of—if not the finest—naval port facilities in that entire hemisphere. If, worst case, the tanks were to collapse right now and gush oil, the Navy would have men in boats within five minutes assessing the spread and drawing conclusions, while others would be forming details to rig booms to sufficiently trap the oil. At the absolute worst, the Navy will just block off the channel and spend a few weeks cleaning up the spill. Sure such a task would basically shut down the harbor for that period of time, itself not a good thing, but we're not talking about a huge disaster.

Compared to the various commercial oil spills, what's left in Arizona's tanks is literally a few drops in the proverbial bucket. Hell, many more times that amount of oil got spilled out into the Pacific during quite a few small-scale fleet engagements, to say nothing of actions like Midway, the Marianas Turkey Shoot, and Leyte Gulf.

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19 minutes ago, 1Sherman said:

Quick as the Navy's response would be, the damage would likely already be done by that point. The response to the BP disaster was fast, but it's still the largest accidental oil spill in history. 

the BP and Exxon Valdez spills afaik were processed and not crude oil, therefore causing significant damage. Me and bunch of guys from my last ship (USS Hopper) volunteered to do a little COMREL project with the NPS at the Arizona Memorial Visitor center, and help bring the Mighty Mo into Pearl Harbor in '99.  In a conversation with Daniel Martinez, the NPS historian, when asked about the oil leakage by a shipmate he pretty much dismissed it. As I recall he said something to the effect that the remaining oil aboard at this point is almost a solid blob; he seemed convinced that even if the ship disintegrated, the oil would be a large block confined to the area of the wreck.  

It is important to note that Im a cruise missile guy; not a snipe. I have zero knowledge on the properties of refined or crude oil, or any potential disaster. I am taking it on faith that the NPS and the Navy has done their due diligence and know what they are talking about. 

To this day, there is very little worry of a massive oil spill in Pearl Harbor from the Arizona. Point of fact, the Navy is more concerned by the pre-war oil tanks on the hill in Makalapa; they have started leaking rather badly. 

Edited by BBsquid

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6 minutes ago, BBsquid said:

To this day, there is very little worry of a massive oil spill in Pearl Harbor from the Arizona. Point of fact, the Navy is more concerned by the pre-war oil tanks on the hill in Makalapa; they have started leaking rather badly. 

Just imagine what might've happened, if even a handful of Japanese planes (from either the first or second wave, since the third wave was never sent) had dropped some bombs onto that tank battery...

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4 hours ago, Goodwood_Alpha said:

Just imagine what might've happened, if even a handful of Japanese planes (from either the first or second wave, since the third wave was never sent) had dropped some bombs onto that tank battery...

 One of the primary causes of Japan's aggression was a lack of raw materials and oil. To overlook the effect of destroying those tanks is simply baffling. They should have been a priority target for the attack.

Edited by Ares1967

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This has turned into an interesting thread.  :fish_book: 

As far as a sudden spill from the Arizona, I imagine the Navy has a "Call 911" plan to quickly contain any big spill. Better to let her do it on her own rather than poke at all that now rusted plate. 

I had not heard of the plan to replace her with a replica...that is...I'm kind of at a loss really. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ares1967 said:

 One of the primary causes of Japan's aggression was a lack of raw materials and oil. To overlook the effect of destroying those tanks is simply baffling. They should have been a priority target for the attack.

I do believe that the fuel tanks and other port infrastructure were to be the focus of the never launched 3rd strike.

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32 minutes ago, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

This has turned into an interesting thread.  :fish_book: 

As far as a sudden spill from the Arizona, I imagine the Navy has a "Call 911" plan to quickly contain any big spill. Better to let her do it on her own rather than poke at all that now rusted plate. 

I had not heard of the plan to replace her with a replica...that is...I'm kind of at a loss really. 

 

Yeah, the bunker C fuel oil is really dense..a sticky, black liquid similar in appearance and smell to asphalt sealing compounds. When you look at the pictures of the attack, even the oil leaking from the BBs is relatively localized. It didnt spread very far.

Here in Hawaii that plan was seriously flame sprayed in op eds in the Advertiser and Star Bulletin. Its probably a good thing this happened well before the dawn of the interwebs. I was a kid but my dad remembers that CINCPAC (Im sorry, what is it now? Indo-Pacific command or some such?)  PAO received TONS of hate mail from vets.  

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21 minutes ago, DakotaViking said:

I do believe that the fuel tanks and other port infrastructure were to be the focus of the never launched 3rd strike.

Somebody mentioned earlier I think...there was concern about the resulting dense smoke clouds obscuring targets or some such.  It is a classic misstep; had the oil farms gotten hit, the Pacific Fleet would have been crippled for YEARS. Even without them getting hit, through '42 and parts of '43 the Navy had a hard time keeping the operating forces in the South Pacific sufficiently fueled. 

@Sir_Davos_Seaworthrefresh my memory...was it the concussion from the torpedo hits to Helena that killed the Oglala, or hits on the Phoenix?

Edited by BBsquid

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14 hours ago, BBsquid said:

Somebody mentioned earlier I think...there was concern about the resulting dense smoke clouds obscuring targets or some such.  It is a classic misstep; had the oil farms gotten hit, the Pacific Fleet would have been crippled for YEARS. Even without them getting hit, through '42 and parts of '43 the Navy had a hard time keeping the operating forces in the South Pacific sufficiently fueled. 

@Sir_Davos_Seaworthrefresh my memory...was it the concussion from the torpedo hits to Helena that killed the Oglala, or hits on the Phoenix?

Huh...not sure off the top of my head...I'd have to look it up, but I'm too tired, LOL... 

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