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Ensign_Cthulhu

Bot torpedo dodging, enough is enough.

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Dear @Gneisenau013 @Radar_X and others:

I do not often get really angry about this game, but tonight I am.

I understand that the bots need to be given some sense of how to dodge torpedoes, but what I saw tonight was ridiculous. It was beyond a joke. Not just the awareness of torps from the instant of launch, to which we have become accustomed, but abrupt speed changes of which I am not sure the ships involved are even capable, so that torpedoes miss by inches in front, behind or to either side. And this at ranges of less than 4km, sometimes shorter.

 The uncanny awareness and avoidance ability of bots toward torpedoes needs to be dialled back, or a short delay loop inserted to mimic human reaction times. Co-op players are becoming utterly frustrated with it, everyone knows it's gone a step too far, and the question has to be addressed. I understand that at longer ranges I am likely to miss, but not at ranges where I could almost reach out and touch the bot. The current state of affairs is frankly, in my opinion, unfair.

I'm trying very hard to be polite about this, and I have great forebearance, but my patience in the face of everything I saw tonight is wearing thin, and others are even further along the sliding scale of frustration than I am. Please communicate this to the development and balance teams.

Kind regards

Ensign Cthulhu.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu
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18 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Dear @Gneisenau013 @Radar_X and others:

I do not often get really angry about this game, but tonight I am.

I understand that the bots need to be given some sense of how to dodge torpedoes, but what I saw tonight was ridiculous. It was beyond a joke. Not just the awareness of torps from the instant of launch, to which we have become accustomed, but abrupt speed changes of which I am not sure the ships involved are even capable, so that torpedoes miss by inches in front, behind or to either side. And this at ranges of less than 4km, sometimes shorter.

 The uncanny awareness and avoidance ability of bots toward torpedoes needs to be dialled back, or a short delay loop inserted to mimic human reaction times. Co-op players are becoming utterly frustrated with it, everyone knows it's gone a step too far, and the question has to be addressed. I understand that at longer ranges I am likely to miss, but not at ranges where I could almost reach out and touch the bot. The current state of affairs is frankly, in my opinion, unfair.

I'm trying very hard to be polite about this, and I have great forebearance, but my patience in the face of everything I saw tonight is wearing thin, and others are even further along the sliding scale of frustration than I am. Please communicate this to the development and balance teams.

Kind regards

Ensign Cthulhu.

And what do you want? Dumb bots, so you can beat the crap out of them and then proudly look in the mirror?

I love these powerful bots, I take the coop now like a very competitive training room, where I can improve my skills and test different tactics, before it was just unbelieveble boring.

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How about if I simply tell you how to CHEAT against the bots.

----

Just before you fire your torps...  hit 'X" to deselect them as a target.  Then fire where the direction had told you to before you deselected.

The bots immediately jam the rudder over the moment it sees you fire torps.

 

 

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Just now, AVR_Project said:

How about if I simply tell you how to CHEAT against the bots.

----

Just before you fire your torps...  hit 'X" to deselect them as a target.  Then fire where the direction had told you to before you deselected.

The bots immediately jam the rudder over the moment it sees you fire torps.

 

 

I was doing that!

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Just now, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I was doing that!

Then it was likely using a spotter or enemy planes to detect them early.

Keep an eye out for that.

 

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1 minute ago, AVR_Project said:

Then it was likely using a spotter or enemy planes to detect them early.

Keep an eye out for that.

 

from what I have "heard" You must select another target first, before launching.. not just unlock from the target you are firing at....

Edited by neptunes_wrath

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Oh wait...   I'll bet you have some task selected about so many torpedo hits....    Hahahahahahahaha...

It's like 'shoot down x planes' and you never encounter a CV for a week.

Yeah..  I keep one of thos missions handy if I don't want to see carriers for a while.

 

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Things like torp avoidance is cool until it goes beyond the capabilities of the ship.  When the ship has 15s rudder shift and the ai get like 5s..just no.

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100% win rate isn’t enough for ya?

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6 minutes ago, Rednecks_Slayer said:

And what do you want? Dumb bots, so you can beat the crap out of them and then proudly look in the mirror?

I love these powerful bots, I take the coop now like a very competitive training room, where I can improve my skills and test different tactics, before it was just unbelieveble boring.

The bots get progressively smarter magical as you go up in tier, many of us play PVE rather than PVP, so it's important to have a fair balance, especially at high tier where you not only face the (in some cases) very magical bots, but a much greater risk of loss of reward for the effort put out.

Yes we all want better AI than what we've had in the past, and WG seems to be playing with the setting and trying to make improvements.

But you with only having 32 matches in PVE, and low tier at that, really don't have a grasp of what's been going on. be glad others are speaking out! this stands to loose a lot if the PVE population calls in quits.

 

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Bots are much better.  I do not mind the weird stuff they do at times...not too much anyway. At least it is no longer virtually auto-win and boring.  It's more competitive and I like that and I still win those co-op matches most all of the time but I am seeing more losses. They now stop, back up, weave, and actually do things!  My gripe is not so much the torp thing but it's how they can shoot OVER an island MOUNTAIN 100,000 feet high and hit you from 15k or more. I have no ship that can shoot over the highest island mountains the way they can.  No ship can.  Not even Cleveland. Correct me if I am wrong on this.

Edited by dmckay

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26 minutes ago, SpudZero said:

The bots get progressively smarter magical as you go up in tier, many of us play PVE rather than PVP, so it's important to have a fair balance, especially at high tier where you not only face the (in some cases) very magical bots, but a much greater risk of loss of reward for the effort put out.

Yes we all want better AI than what we've had in the past, and WG seems to be playing with the setting and trying to make improvements.

But you with only having 32 matches in PVE, and low tier at that, really don't have a grasp of what's been going on. be glad others are speaking out! this stands to loose a lot if the PVE population calls in quits.

 

If you say that I have only 32 battles in coop (me personally I don't even know how many I have) is because coop was incredibly boring, with stupid bots and 3-5 minutes battles. So, I preferred intelligent humans instead of stupid bots, because it is more interesting and challenging and also I don't have a WR psycho complex.

Edited by Rednecks_Slayer
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Hmm I noticed this as well and I think it needs some tweaking to not be easy, but not so hard to hit the bots themselves.

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dude...just watch the bots...when you switch to torps...the bots bank left and right a couple of before turning towards you or away from you...most likely they will turn towards your direction to follow...thats when i fire my spread...one or two of my torps always hit the mark.  

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Bots are kind of dumb. They will leave a cap before capture even though it might secure the win. Yes it can be difficult to torpedo them but they are dumb.

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well, since launch the AI routines/decision tree that govern what the bots do has steadily improved patch by patch, and un like human player bots are not "cautious", they have no fear.  I have seen bot carrier air launch from behind a charging bot DD(something a human would never ever get away with.  I was shocked, I was also sunk a few moments later)  I have also seen Bots take a penalty (pinkbots!)  for shooting a teammate.  I have seen bot's use cover.  I have seen bot use torpedo's to zone human players and set them up for fire from other ship.  And bots while the decisions they make are rather simple they make those decisions in a fraction of a second and act on them right now with zero hesitation, and they don't second guess themselves.  And some bot are "smarter" then others and if you have a 19 point captain in your ship,the bot in the same ship will also have a 19 point captain.  You will be mirrored.  The bot team will be a reflection of your own, unless your doing an operation where the bot OB is pretty much fixed with only a few variations.

But if bots are consistently beating you then sorry but there something your doing wrong... likely several things.  Just remember..bots don't actually think.  they follow a decision tree with decisions weighted by the ship and situation.

If the bots are kicking the ship out of you it's time to go back to PvP where its safer!

 

No one ever said that bots wern't allowed to torpedo beat!

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1 hour ago, dmckay said:

Bots are much better.  I do not mind the weird stuff they do at times...not too much anyway. At least it is no longer virtually auto-win and boring.  It's more competitive and I like that and I still win those co-op matches most all of the time but I am seeing more losses. They now stop, back up, weave, and actually do things!

Until you get what I had last night; a classic 1vs 15; me in a Bogue and 15 bots.

They spent so much time ‘being smart,’ and reacting to each other I was effectively the only one doing anything the first half of the game... The Red eventually ran away and conceded all the caps. Eventually they sank all the Greens and shot down all my planes, but it was so late all I had to do was hide until the timer ran out.

Bot used to be stupid. They ran into islands and each other and got locked up and didn’t do much.

Now bots are ‘smart,’ they do all the things you said, dmckay...

...they also still cheat like hell because of their programming. Torp-dodging is the least of it; reacting to unspotted ships, flying air squads right to unspotted ships; what seems at times like 100% angle normalization on shells; considering all the citadels and full pens I’ve taken while angled; AA that if player AA worked so well, there might not be any complaints. Bombers that might as well have 100% chance for fires and flooding...

...etc, etc...

Smarted bots...

Oh; the ones that run away at the least sign of a player? Who run into islands and each other reacting to players; especially ones they haven’t even spotted?

Congrats to WG; they’ve turned their bots into potatoes...

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Tonight I launched a full salvo of torps from my Kii at a BB (I believe  a North Carolina) who was parallel to me.  It was at full stop. As in not moving at all.   No way I could've missed hitting its broadside.  At the last second, it rang up flank speed and dodged all of them.

 

Utter rubbish.  Torpedo beats my backside.  Not unless it has a warp drive.

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No one ever said that bots wern't allowed to torpedo beat!

No, but if wargaming is going to make the bots torpedo beat as good as I'm seeing today, then they need to give the bots no more warning that torpedoes are incoming than I get.

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So....

I just fired a spread of torps at a Myogi (15.3s rudder shift, 730m turning radius), running broadside to me at 2.5 km.  I fired down the track and before the track. Guess what happened?  He turned AWAY and dodged all of them.  2.5 km.

I want THAT Vigilance perk for MY captains!

CS

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Every loss ive had in pve was cuz my so called smarter humans, went bot mode and got t10bbs [edited].  My 2nd from last game back in aug 2017, saw my t9 human team charge in a braindead straight line and all die.  My uncle and I have had to struggle fighting against 5-7 of the 8 enemies after our team evaporates before our 20 knt bbs were even near the fight. 

If bots are getting harder, I fear wanting to play, not cuz of the bots, but because the players are atrocious.

But if its getting harder then I certainly want better pay for carrying the turd players and squeaking out a win.  4k profit just doesnt make the effort worth it.

I certainly would like some altered and rougher play from the ai, but better rewards to boot.

Edited by KnightFandragon

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I am not  Co-Op player so I am trying to understand the OPs frustration. The only thing I can compare it to was the PVE operations in where are BBs were to "bullet proof" in order to secure the mission. OR having a red bot CV at the furthest edge of the map heading north away from us making it that objective unachievable. 

But this is Co-Op. For months and months now Co-Op players have been asking/pleading/daring to WOWS by every communication (forums and other means) to give Co-Op players some love and attention. Now you got the changes the majority are asking for, so now its a situation where I don't like my lover I want my wife back?  GL trying to get her back type situation ? 

In summery, careful what you ask for. You may not like the changes coming your way. All I can recommend is, adapt and over come.  

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Ok, haven't played in awhile, so I thought I'd check out this report of the AI buff.....:Smile_teethhappy:

Spoiler

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It was a slaughter. We were focus fired the instant we were spotted. The bots dodge torps better than any player alive..... at tier 3.:Smile_amazed:

 

Wt5W8Pb.jpg

 

I fought for 10 mins before getting popped, i was forced to dance and run multiple times after not only failing to kill my target, but failing to land a SINGLE torp.

I have never lost a Derski match in co-op. I've never missed 90% of my shots when I'm launching a wall of torps at short range.

I really don't know what people expect to happen from this, the average new player coming in and getting wiped in co-op ins't going to drive them to random, it's going to drive them down the street.

 

 

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