Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Theokolese

One change to the carrier rework that needs to happen.

71 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
326 posts
31 battles

I am all for the carrier rework. The current system had such a high skill ceiling that games were decided at matchmaking with the quality of the CV driver on your team. In the game play review the one thing that jumped out at me was that CV's no longer have a plane count. In my opinion this goes to far in simplifying the carrier game play for the low skill level player. CV's should still be required to think tactically and determine if a particular target is worth attacking or should be avoided due to the plane count. Having unlimited planes means even the lowest skilled humanoid is going to derp around the map randomly bombing, strafing, and torpedoing ships the ENTIRE match. Never having to consider ANYTHING at all, I am all for making the class easier to play but the rework looks like you took the ceiling and made it a basement. CV players should still have their air wings punished for playing foolishly. A system that really has no counter other than finding the CV and sinking it is a bad system in my opinion.

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13
[PIZZA]
Members
22 posts
1,248 battles
14 minutes ago, Theokolese said:

CV players should still have their air wings punished for playing foolishly. A system that really has no counter other than finding the CV and sinking it is a bad system in my opinion.

I believe they said the punishment was going to be progressively longer cooldowns when all your planes get killed. And they didn't want a CV with no planes driving around doing nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
280
[CVA16]
Members
2,281 posts
9,859 battles

WG hasn't provided a lot of detail but I assume (vain hope?) that there is at least some sort of cool down counter before you can recover lost planes. From the targets point of view, I hope you kill the planes on the strike first, not the ones in reserve. Has to be some difference between a Langley and a Midway besides plane tier.

 

Another point to work out is how long a CV player can keep using his aircraft AFTER his ship is sunk. Is there a timer or can he keep going until all his ordinance is expended? No other ship in the game gets anything beyond where rounds in the air, torps in the water continue after you are sunk but that is the end of it.

Edited by Sabot_100

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,206
[GWG]
[GWG]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
15,615 posts
9,014 battles
8 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

WG hasn't provided a lot of detail but I assume (vain hope?) that there is at least some sort of cool down counter before you can recover lost planes. From the targets point of view, I hope you kill the planes on the strike first, not the ones in reserve. Has to be some difference between a Langley and a Midway besides plane tier.

 

Another point to work out is how long a CV player can keep using his aircraft AFTER his ship is sunk. Is there a timer or can he keep going until all his ordinance is expended? No other ship in the game gets anything beyond where rounds in the air, torps in the water continue after you are sunk but that is the end of it.

They did mention that but it can be worked around buy recalling the squad just before it would be destroyed. I saw that happening on the second video that was released but I think there should be a delay from sending the recall to it happening if the squad is in combat, i.e. making an attack run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,510
[-K-]
[-K-]
Members
3,096 posts
12,657 battles

This same reasoning was used to argue that destroyers should have limited torpedoes so they have to use them selectively. And that everybody else should run out of shells so they have to think about when to use HE vs. AP, etc. In the end, neither limited planes nor limited ammo are good mechanics, they just make gameplay slow and frustrating as people wait around for a better shot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
97
[FAILD]
Members
427 posts
1,608 battles
18 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Has to be some difference between a Langley and a Midway besides plane tier.

The only videos that are out are with the midway as the carrier. I'd like to see the differences between IJN carriers and USN carriers. 

It seems the best defense is going to be grouping against squadron and hunting the carriers to remove them from the match. Which with the new RN event has brought the DD's out of the wood work. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
280
[CVA16]
Members
2,281 posts
9,859 battles

Has to be something benefit to keeping planes alive. Otherwise it will be getting all you torp planes destroyed, so you launch your dive bombers and get them all destroyed about the time a new torp squadron is ready to go. Rinse and repeat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
875
[SSG]
Alpha Tester
3,448 posts
8,096 battles

1: they said cooldowns would balance this out. 

2:

19 minutes ago, Theokolese said:

The current system had such a high skill ceiling that games were decided at matchmaking with the quality of the CV driver on your team.

  • The entirety of the "skill ceiling", and more importantly the "skill gap" - is the fact strafing is an auto delete, and CV alpha, combined with manual drops, is too high. Reduce strafing's bonus to a minor one mostly about messing with bomber accuracy and for the most part has about the same chance as downing a plane as normal clicking the group, just can maybe apply to all of them. And reduce the alpha of CV strike planes. Now planes aren't deleted with ease, also helping solve the attrition issue without need of extreme measures such as a resupply, and manual drop is no longer a massive threat to anything that isn't a DD that can't dodge, unless they have low health or burn/flood, and closes the gap because the difference between a manual drop hitting all torps and an auto drop hitting a couple may be 4-8000 damage as oppose dto the current 40-80000. 
  • It is decided by the quality OF THE TEAM. I have had matches where playing my CV - I did not load, at all, till the last few seconds of the game, unless I crashed and missed it outright, and the team won, with no CV. I have gone up against players considered good at CV play, like Fem, and won or almost won - because of the team. CV needs the team to help them as much as the team needs them to help them. This means making sure there isn't some massive opening that a DD can get through, or a Battleship, to sneak in and hit the CV - a CV's planes have at best half the spotting range in most cases, and if my fighters and bombers are busy lighting a target, they aren't defending the fleet or hitting targets. On which note, when we light something - shoot it. That means you see a ship that is known for good/insane AA, especially cruisers, sink them or at least hammer them with AA - an AA build ship covers a roughly 4x4 area of the map, so while you may want us to scout A for the DD, it may be well within a cruisers AA so we ca't even get to it. And most importantly, that means NOT scattering across the map as 11 lone wolves, expecting the CV to babysit you and you alone, because depending on the current CV, they have 1-3 fighter groups, to cover maps where it takes roughly 10 seconds to cross 1 full grid square, meaning if the nearest fighters are 3 grid squares away - you have no help for at least 30 seconds. And more importantly, fighters have an ammo limit, and can be shot down, so you should not be 100% reliant on the CV's cover cause they may have to rearm fighters, and that's when the red CV strike planes show up.

 

And if you seriously think, that making CV's 100% manual drop, and based on dodging a WALL of bullets and shrapnel given what we have seen so far is DIALED DOWN AA, is going to "lower the skill ceiling" - you have another thing coming. People are STILL complaining about IJN torps that leave them NINE seconds to react and dodge them, at minimum, NINE!. As opposed to the SEVEN of other nations. And let us not also forget that, given the roughly 10 seconds per square, most being 3.6-4.5 km squares, and that no matter what now, planes are spotted at 8 km, you have roughly 20 seconds of warning that planes are headed your way, more if they are spotted by something else, to react to an attack on your ship, and people still complain about that. Not even the manual drop, where they have a point, even when manual drop doesn't exist, they whine they get hit by a single TB group seen literally miles away. 

 

To quote Luke Skywalker - This is not going to go, the way you think"

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
258
[LWA]
Members
625 posts
8,914 battles
50 minutes ago, Theokolese said:

I am all for the carrier rework. The current system had such a high skill ceiling that games were decided at matchmaking with the quality of the CV driver on your team. In the game play review the one thing that jumped out at me was that CV's no longer have a plane count. In my opinion this goes to far in simplifying the carrier game play for the low skill level player. CV's should still be required to think tactically and determine if a particular target is worth attacking or should be avoided due to the plane count. Having unlimited planes means even the lowest skilled humanoid is going to derp around the map randomly bombing, strafing, and torpedoing ships the ENTIRE match. Never having to consider ANYTHING at all, I am all for making the class easier to play but the rework looks like you took the ceiling and made it a basement. CV players should still have their air wings punished for playing foolishly. A system that really has no counter other than finding the CV and sinking it is a bad system in my opinion.

Meanwhile, the destroyers in the game can spam unlimited torpedoes throughout the game.  What is the difference?

                                                                                                                                                            ^

                                                                                                                                                            ^

                                                                                                                                                            ^

                                                                                                                                                            ^

                                                                                                                                     Keyword:  "game"

                                                                                                                                This is not a simulator

                                                                                                          how else can we have ships that defy physics...ie Khab

                                                                                                                                                                                                      ^

                                                                                                                                                                                                      ^

                                                                                                                                                                                                      ^

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I really dislike that ship

Edited by db4100

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,206
[GWG]
[GWG]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
15,615 posts
9,014 battles
Just now, Sabot_100 said:

Has to be something benefit to keeping planes alive. Otherwise it will be getting all you torp planes destroyed, so you launch your dive bombers and get them all destroyed about the time a new torp squadron is ready to go. Rinse and repeat.

There is supposed to be a delay if the squadron is completely destroyed. However, if you watch the second video released it appears the CV player is gaming the system by recalling the planes as soon as they make their final drop. As I said in my first post if they are that close in to a target there should be a short delay before the recall activates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
326 posts
31 battles
18 minutes ago, db4100 said:

Meanwhile, the destroyers in the game can spam unlimited torpedoes throughout the game.  What is the difference?

                                                                                                                                                            ^

                                                                                                                                                            ^

                                                                                                                                                            ^

                                                                                                                                                            ^

                                                                                                                                     Keyword:  "game"

                                                                                                                                This is not a simulator

                                                                                                          how else can we have ships that defy physics...ie Khab

                                                                                                                                                                                                      ^

                                                                                                                                                                                                      ^

                                                                                                                                                                                                      ^

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I really dislike that ship

I would say the difference is that the DD is a surface ship, if he gets spotted he gets deleted pretty quickly. He has to think to employ his weapons if he makes a mistake he is dead, The DD can be countered by other surface ships. The CV having a unlimited supply of aircraft has no counter other than the enemy CV finding him and sinking him or DD's ignoring everything and going CV hunting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,981
[ARGSY]
Members
6,274 posts
4,243 battles
17 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

There is supposed to be a delay if the squadron is completely destroyed. However, if you watch the second video released it appears the CV player is gaming the system by recalling the planes as soon as they make their final drop.

It's my understanding that this whole rework is somewhere at the level of pre-supertesting - i.e. they are still making sure that the basic mechanics work. Hopefully such loopholes will be identified and closed, but you're right to bring it up here.

51 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Another point to work out is how long a CV player can keep using his aircraft AFTER his ship is sunk. Is there a timer or can he keep going until all his ordinance is expended? No other ship in the game gets anything beyond where rounds in the air, torps in the water continue after you are sunk but that is the end of it.

It's implicit in the very nature of the carrier's weapon system; it's a two-stage weapon, with the first being completely autonomous. If my carrier gets sunk behind me, I'm going to go on, hit my target, then if there is nowhere left for me to go, I'm going to fight until all my ammo is expended and either ditch next door to the nearest friendly surface warship or (if it's in my culture or I am dying) slam my plane into the nearest enemy warship (not sure if this will be possible in-game).

Auto strikes in the current system continue on their path once the carrier is sunk, but then the planes mill around doing nothing and hurting nothing (except spotting what passes under their area of vision). Letting the squadron that's airborne finish out its ordnance will have the same effect here; the issue will be where the planes go. Will they mill about on the spot as they do now, or attempt to return to the last place the carrier was before it was destroyed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
280
[CVA16]
Members
2,281 posts
9,859 battles
5 minutes ago, db4100 said:

Meanwhile, the destroyers in the game can spam unlimited torpedoes throughout the game.  What is the difference?

1. Cool down. It takes a while to reload after a launch that may be entirely wasted because the target randomly turns or is sunk.

2.  Torps can be permaspotted making dodging really easy. CV attacks are all at close range so the target has to actively dodge each attack.

3. A DD may be unable to launch torp attacks for most of a match if he picks the wrong direction in his initial attack. I have had many games where I went up one side of the map only to have the reds turn and run  and I end up chasing the red ships the rest of the game.

4. A single DD cannot cross-drop unless number 5 is taken to the extreme.

5. The DD generally has to put his ship at risk to get into effective torpedo range. Even stealth DDs have to worry about spotters, radar, other DDs. Getting spotted wrecks the attack and may get you killed. The CV player can effectively ambush torp/bomb all the time as his ship is generally safely out of sight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
326 posts
31 battles
36 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

This same reasoning was used to argue that destroyers should have limited torpedoes so they have to use them selectively. And that everybody else should run out of shells so they have to think about when to use HE vs. AP, etc. In the end, neither limited planes nor limited ammo are good mechanics, they just make gameplay slow and frustrating as people wait around for a better shot.

Respectfully I disagree, destroyers can be countered by any ship once they are spotted. CV's will have no direct counter other than being spotted and sunk. So having limited numbers of planes is the counter to CV's buy the collective team. You know what is going to happen, CV's will find an island to hide behind and you will NEVER see them meaning there will be no counter to the CV other than a slightly longer squadron reload time. So for example say that you have your CV heavily protected by multiple AA ships, there is NO penalty for the enemy CV to suicide his squadron in and try and sink the enemy CV at the beginning of the game. That is too simplistic in my opinion, I think CV drivers should have to plan their attacks using finite resources to maximize their effectiveness in the game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
280
[CVA16]
Members
2,281 posts
9,859 battles
17 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

It's implicit in the very nature of the carrier's weapon system; it's a two-stage weapon, with the first being completely autonomous. If my carrier gets sunk behind me, I'm going to go on, hit my target, then if there is nowhere left for me to go, I'm going to fight until all my ammo is expended and either ditch next door to the nearest friendly surface warship or (if it's in my culture or I am dying) slam my plane into the nearest enemy warship (not sure if this will be possible in-game).

Auto strikes in the current system continue on their path once the carrier is sunk, but then the planes mill around doing nothing and hurting nothing (except spotting what passes under their area of vision). Letting the squadron that's airborne finish out its ordnance will have the same effect here; the issue will be where the planes go. Will they mill about on the spot as they do now, or attempt to return to the last place the carrier was before it was destroyed?

IRL, yes. But in game having a player be able to continue to effect the game long AFTER he is sunk seems wrong. He could keep active spotting, launching attacks (or even feints if he is out of ammo).  No other ship has that ability. A DD player can't continue to launch torps from his sinking ship because they were loaded before he was "sunk".  Animation wise it may take some time before he slips beneath the waves.

Currently there is at least a limit on how long a CV player can keep directing his aircraft after sinking.

And I'm pretty sure WG said no Kamikazes (other than the DDs:Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by Sabot_100

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,981
[ARGSY]
Members
6,274 posts
4,243 battles
6 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

But in game having a player be able to continue to effect the game long AFTER he is sunk seems wrong.

In the current setup, yes. In the rework setup, where he is placed at the head of the attacking squadron, no. What I haven't seen in enough detail is what elapses between launch and the start of the attack phase. At present, the rework has it that when a three-plane element has expended its ordnance, that element is taken out of the game. You can still spot actively, but you are just one unit rather than multiple ones all over the map... and if you do not attack (and thereby commit yourself to leaving the fight), it's likely that the AA will eventually whittle you down.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
326 posts
31 battles
1 minute ago, Sabot_100 said:

IRL, yes. But in game having a player be able to continue to effect the game long AFTER he is sunk seems wrong. He could keep active spotting, launching attacks (or even feints if he is out of ammo).  No other ship has that ability.

Currently there is at least a limit on how long a CV player can keep directing his aircraft after sinking.

And I'm pretty sure WG said no Kamikazes (other than the DDs:Smile_teethhappy:

I am also not a fan of the rockets, instead of just one type of attack that causes fires there will be two. I can see CV's exchanging massive alpha strike damage to massive dot damage. If I am a CV player I am attacking with torpedo bombers first. If I cause flooding the player will be forced to use damage control, then I hit bomb and rocket attacks and set prema fires. The fire mechanic is the worst part of the game and Wargaming keeps finding ways to add more and more fire to the game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,722
[TBW]
Members
6,401 posts
12,031 battles

Why don't we just wait until the rework is launched before we start trying to alter it.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
280
[CVA16]
Members
2,281 posts
9,859 battles
4 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Why don't we just wait until the rework is launched before we start trying to alter it.

We are hoping to influence the "final" rework before it goes live. Probably have about as much effect as complaining about the weather but there is always hope...:cap_haloween:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,722
[TBW]
Members
6,401 posts
12,031 battles
Just now, Sabot_100 said:

We are hoping to influence the "final" rework before it goes live. Probably have about as much effect as complaining about the weather but there is always hope...:cap_haloween:

Isn't there a carrier rework thread for these concerns and ideas? Not that they would pay more attention there. I think it's more a placebo than a conglomeration of ideas and concerns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,500 posts
5,479 battles
7 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Why don't we just wait until the rework is launched before we start trying to alter it.

I totally agree...we have not tried it yet but some are making some assumptions already. Sure its fun to do but in the end..we have to wait till we get our hands on it and then we have some concrete play action to write about.  Even when the CV is released...I am sure the DEVs will expect some constructive suggestions which they might and will consider.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
847
[SBS]
Members
2,467 posts
2,253 battles
25 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

There is supposed to be a delay if the squadron is completely destroyed. However, if you watch the second video released it appears the CV player is gaming the system by recalling the planes as soon as they make their final drop. As I said in my first post if they are that close in to a target there should be a short delay before the recall activates.

If you look closely at the video you'll see the recall button is locked out during an attack run. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,500 posts
5,479 battles
7 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

We are hoping to influence the "final" rework before it goes live. Probably have about as much effect as complaining about the weather but there is always hope...:cap_haloween:

Even when the CV work is released I do not think it will be the final details but a initial phase offering which the DEVs would await complaints/praises and suggestion which will come rushing down like crazy upon them. If the threads look busy now..wait till the CV release comes around! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,206
[GWG]
[GWG]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
15,615 posts
9,014 battles
1 minute ago, Slimeball91 said:

If you look closely at the video you'll see the recall button is locked out during an attack run. 

I will have to watch it again but it seemed like he was back at the carrier as soon as he dropped. It is still something they need to consider.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
847
[SBS]
Members
2,467 posts
2,253 battles
Just now, BrushWolf said:

I will have to watch it again but it seemed like he was back at the carrier as soon as he dropped. It is still something they need to consider.

I believe that jumping right back to the carrier is to be taking off with the next air group as soon as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×