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Avenge_December_7

So What Are The Strategies To Counter Harugumo and Kitikaze?

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So I've decided to actually poke my head out into high tier PvP with Missouri (after a 40-day hiatus followed by mostly recovery in co-op, operations, and mid-tier randoms divisions) by trying out arms race for the first time.

While I lost all three matches (sometimes due to my own fault, sometimes not), in all three matches there was one common feature: the presence of a Kitikaze or a Harugumo.

Is it just me, or are these things like Khabarovsks on steroids? To me, it seems that they fire far faster (and usually set more fires because of this), carry better torpedoes, and kite well enough that trying to fight them at the edge of their range (11 km and beyond if they have AFT) with a BB or a cruiser without railgun arcs is like trying to chase a kiting Conqueror: you'll only end up burning down.

And from some accounts I've heard and seen, even catching them at close range with a cruiser is a risky proposition if they're not completely caught unaware.

How can other destroyers counter them? Apart from perhaps Khabarovsk at long range, pretty much nothing can out-DPM them, and it has quite the hefty health pool to boot.

Is there any sort of definite strategy for cruisers to take them down? They seem to be the most effective class at countering them with radar and good DPM, but I've also seen cases where the aforementioned IJN dd's have taken down cruisers with ease.

Is fleeing the only option for BBs should they come under fire from one of these destroyers that's smoked up? They usually don't have the accuracy or DPM to effectively attack these things from over 10 km and are most susceptible to being burned down. I mean, I'd rather rush a Worcester that's camped behind an island than one of these things kiting in open water.

Pretty much the only class I can think of that can reliably counter them is carriers, but basing a ship's balance solely on the fact that a CV can nuke it is some pretty terrible logic.

Am I missing some weakness of these IJN gunboat dd's that can be exploited to counter them, either in the tactical sense (individual engagements) or strategic sense (capping, spotting, etc.)?

PS: Please note that I am not complaining about them being broken—I am merely hoping to find out some of their weaknesses so that I may not be as helpless next time I face one in any ship class.

 

Edited by Avenge_December_7
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You shoot them , don't just look at them ....

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Step 1: Acquire Worcester+19 point captain

Step 2: spec for ROF/stealth and chuck on a Radar mod

Step 3: drop into match and hover near cap

Step 4: be spotted by Ijn DD at 9.5km and the activate your 9.9km radar

Step 5: murder that little sucker with rapid fire 152mm rifles

Step 6: Profit 

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In a DD I am personally more afraid of Kitakazes than Harugumos. With Harugumo you got a slight stealth advantage with most of the other DDs, so you can keep her safely spotted without much trouble. Kitakaze's 5.9km is pretty close to many other DDs at that tier bracket, so you can find yourself overwhelmed quickly. Turning around, popping smoke to cut vision then torping the smoke most pop as well to avoid damage is a pretty reasonable tactic. These are clumsy ships and many players don't bother positioning themselves to avoid torp hits.

Finally, with VMF DDs it feels kinda easier to deal with them, at least when you have a Tashkent. You first get into their range, they will mostly try to ambush you. When they start firing you open up speed boost, turn around and start opening the distance. With 48+ kts and the enemies most of the time also turning away you can open the distance quite quickly. By 8km their shells start becoming floatier due to their light weight. In the meantime glorious Soviet rifles don't face such issues so you can pick them apart at your leisure.  Keep in note this is safe to do mostly with the VMF DDs that have Repair Party.

Just me 2 cents.

Edited by warheart1992

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2 hours ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

Is it just me, or are these things like Khabarovsks on steroids

They have the operational characteristics of a CL, like a mini mino.

Their weakness is dodging torps; Harugumo's turn radius of 830m = Conqueror turn radius, so it evades torps like a sawed-off BB.

What most ijn captains dont realize yet is that just like a BB, level 3 Vigilance skill really helps in this reguard.

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The Kitty is a tough one as she is stealthy, fast(compared to the other 2 IJN gunboats) and maneuverable. 

To counter her : 

Spot her.

Everyone who can shoots her.

....

Haragumo is by far the easiest to kill. She is the size of a cruiser. She is slow. She can't turn(seriously a tier 10 BB has better turning circle) and dud I mention she is huge and has crap concealment.

To counter her:

Spot her.

Everyone who can shoots her.

.....

....

The whole reason they are so dangerous is because they are ignored.

If they smoke up, just torp the smoke. 98% of the time they eat at least 1.

Haragumo is a mini rooster,  as dangerous as one and has benefit of smoke and 12km torpedoes. 

In arms race, the bluffs make them so strong that it is almost impossible to 1 v 1 them.

 

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Believe it or not - their torps aren't that great. They get 1 tube, with torps that have a base reaction time (time between spotted and impact) of at best, 8.82 seconds (8 km torps) and 9.45 seconds (12 km torps). Compare that to Fletcher and Gearing, with their multiple tubes, with similar range and speed, or in Gearing's case really more, that have a 7.9 second reaction time, Uda and Gro in the RU hybrid/torp line - 7.9 and 7.45 seconds, Z-46 and 52 (52 having actually faster torps) are 7.78 and 7.56, and of course Pan-Asia at 4.51 and 4.38. Some of these nations are a middle ground between the 8 and 12 km options at around 10 km, others have as much or more than the 12 km, guns may pale to these new dakka monsters but they have decent HP and unlike these new DD's, are way more agile. and all of those torps are +/- 2 knots from the 12 km torp speed of 67 knots.

 

These things are cruisers with no citadel, so you beat them the way your supposed to beat DD's - HE rounds to the face. They will do more damage than your AP overpens. They will wreck the engine and steering, they have a better shot at knocking out and destroying the 1 torp tube they get, can wreck the guns as well. If you have torps, launch them, as other said, there are BATTLESHIPS that have a better turning ability, about the only thing they will consistently beat in a turning fight is a CV. Her max HE spewing damage is about 400 per shell hit. at full broadside all she has going with that and her fire chance of 5% is that she unloads when all guns are going 160+ RPM. However, doing that, or even half, as she can't island hide, is keeps her spotted, meaning anyone can take shots at her. 

If you can fight Gearing and the rest - you can fight this thing too - Gearing RoF, with Khab arcs, and worse torps and mobility. 

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You are in Missouri. Get a little closer and use your should-never-had-been-added-to-a-BB radar .

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Ive been wasting DDs with Radar Mino.  Every night I play I seem to be having a 2500+ base xp game because IJN DDs have yet to figure out that British CL will smash their health pool in seconds...hit heal and recover the lost health.

Edited by Gin_Blossoms

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I'll advise ya and I am a Kitakaze driver with a 57% win rate as of today

Montgomery Scott:  "I LIKE this ship!.  This is exciting..um,do you have a towel?"

do not be afraid.  You have armor, you have heals you have DC..use 'em!

Shoot at them with everything you have.They can out DPM you but that takes time.  Don't give them the time!..  You however have a much stronger Alpha.   you can kill them with a single salvo!  (small matter of hitting but if your not trying to you never will!)

As others have mentioned the concept of "nimble"never crossed the mind of the naval architects of these ships.  It will make them easier to hit. with the caveat that you somewhat closer then their ideal engagement range!

A Kitakaze or Harugumo with along range gunnery build (like mine) and an emphasis on "sensors (I pack TAM and RPF.. I run BASE  concealment on my ship.) is not one that running away from is going to help you with.  They're faster then you and with a 17.4 Km gun range running away is problematic at best.  Even if you go guns silent, if they pursue they will catch up to you eventually and the maps have boarders there is only so far you can ever run.

The reality is you have a single realistic option.. CHARGE THEM.  The tier  IX,X DDs have a 6 tube torp rack with a pretty loose firing spread even on narrow setting..at 5+ Km you can nose in torpedo beat the spread and take no hits especially in a US BB as they only have a max 10m and change beam(so they can fit through the Panama Canal) So get in there and those 16" gun barrels against their tiny tiny DD hull and CUT LOOSE!

The one thing you absolutly do NOT want to do is get in a gunnery duel with them at a range of their choosing. 

You Will Loose (unless RNG loves you that day AND your a really good shot!)

AT 15 Km I'm a very small target in my Kitakaze.  At 17 Km it takes an act of god to hit me.  AT those ranges its a toss up which will hurt you more.. my HE, or my AP because at 15+ Km there is not a battleships deck armor I cannot penetrate with my AP.  Sitting at long range from a properly specced long range IJN gunboat is about the worst thing you can DO!  At long range my guns are more accurate then the RU gun boats, AND YOURS! (even if the shell travel time is through the roof but then your a BIG target),and fire more often.  As most Kita and Haru drivers run AR.. you also have to deal with the "Mongo"effect (Nono! Don't shoot him, you'll just make him angry!  Best movie role Alex Carras ever landed.. great guy.  Met him once socially, fun sense of humor for a man that large!)  And it even 5% worse of they have Isoroku Yamamoto assigned to the ship!

 

so yea.  Missouri.. Your advantage is Radar, HP pool and HP heal and an awe inspiring alpha strike potential.  The only way for a Kitakaze and Harugumu to beat that advantage is to never let you use them. SO you gotta monkey wrench them and it'll cost ya.  Both these IJN DD's loose a lot of speed when they maneuver hard (more then any other DD type)  so don't fire everything at them at once.. make them dance and dodge because it will SLOW THEM DOWN!

I've been having awesome fun in my Kitakaze and my WR proves it.  Fighting these unconventional DD's takes unconventional counter meem tactics.  The down side is the tactics that will save you against them will set you up nicely for other DD types..

 

There are 3 to 4 subtley different viable set ups for these two ships. Mine is an extreme that suits me. A full stealth build and the sneaky sneaky in and out presents it's own puzzle.  But the one thing I can tell you for sure is it takes TIME for these ship to accumulate killing damage on you..Don't Give Them That Time.  Everything else is a small matter of gunnery.

 

See you out there and good hunting!

TL_Warlord_Roff sends

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

Mongo"effect (Nono! Don't shoot him, you'll just make him angry! 

Lol

Much like the 75% angle the shells drop @17km....I,l once pummeled a Yammy over the top of a sheer cliff he was nosed into

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Kitakaze is fairly tricky since it's not THAT sluggish. It's more of a cumbersome destroyer than a battleship with okay rudder shift time compared to the Harugumo. But yeah, they really are ships that deal well with farming BBs and Cruisers from safety than other destroyers. Their best counters are your own destroyers chucking torpedoes at smokes they place, or Wooster/Mino, or radar in general, really. You have to be very careful pushing into areas that they have control over, just really exceptionally good destroyers on defense.

Kitakaze is honestly a much better ship and is absolutely a scare to other destroyers, while Harugumo is more of a threat to other ships.

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If you're a GK, you just show up and drive around, without a care in the world...

Did over 120k damage to this guy, guns and torps, couldn't kill him. :Smile_teethhappy:

120k GK.png

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Force them to fight on your terms, not theirs.  Deny their vision control and shoot them.  Hope your teammates are smart enough to focus them when the opportunity is there.

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From the DD perspective with torps.  Especially Shimakaze.  Playing ranked I try to hunt the Harugumos on the enemy team.  You really need to get them off the board before they can put their DPM to work.  I spot them for my team to shoot at, when they smoke I torp the smoke then rush them.  If they are out of smoke and shoot at me chances are I can smoke up and farm them.

Its important to deny their safe space.  They are not nearly as effective once you root them out and get them in the open.

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Harugumo  eats planes specced the way I have it and yes only way to beat em is charge em with a more ships then they can kill

 

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