Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Admiral_Thrawn_1

How to make Subs effective?

44 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,273
[RKLES]
Members
7,214 posts
9,006 battles

Subs will have enough deficits that we will need to discuss how to make them effective since they will be more vulnerable than most realize. DDs are often much bigger threats than subs are likely to be in all honesty. I-400 Class Subs had 8 forward torpedoe tubes, many other subs had less. Now look at stealthy DDs and how many Torps they get to launch at a time...

Subs in WWII were vulnerable to any weapon ships in WOWs has including aircraft when surfaced or at periscope depth often times. And Depth Charges will will likely be made usable which will mean subs will face additional weapons that surface ships will not have to face. They had really thin armor, basically no AA, and often limited deck guns or even no anti ship deck guns on some subs. Subs will be facing every detection method in game unless submerged and when submerged they will still face hydro and maybe even sonar. 

Many players are rating by saying “Nerf the Subs!” without taking a step back and carefully looking at all sides of the matter. The subs being added into the game will not be modern nuclear ballistic missile subs or specialized hunter subs with homing Torps and complete stealth. No we will be seeing WWI and WWII subs that will have a lot of drawbacks and honestly we may need to think of ways to have them buffed.

Lol fun thought did cross my mind that will all the complaints of camping ships those will be the ships most vulnerable to subs stealth  Torps...  Stealth Torp DDs are still the most lethal in that kind of punishment as I have been the DD in that situation many times and many ships have fallen victim to my Torps lol.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
124
[FGNE]
Members
350 posts
2,487 battles

Sub torpedo damage will have to be low-medium, otherwise they might become the new CV, and since they are somewhat slow (even when surfaced compared to surface combatants) they will be highly positional.

A few monster games here and there, but I believe that most sub matches will be low damage ones.

So I believe (so far) that the best way to make subs worthwhile is by adjusting their economy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[AK-47]
Members
155 posts
3,106 battles

Once a sub surfaces you know every player in the area will be targeting it... and if you just wasted all your air on a dive you’re Toast... I would love to see subs in the game and believe they wouldn’t be overpowered like many say... people are forgetting like you mentioned they’re going to be ww1/ww2 subs not subs we have today... but then again it’s a video game so no matter how fair or balanced the game will be it will still not be enough for those crybabies that complain about everything... every game experiences those type of players unfortunately.. games cater to garbage players because there’s more of them... 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,291 posts
4,132 battles
9 minutes ago, Paintpro_1 said:

Once a sub surfaces you know every player in the area will be targeting it... and if you just wasted all your air on a dive you’re Toast... I would love to see subs in the game and believe they wouldn’t be overpowered like many say... people are forgetting like you mentioned they’re going to be ww1/ww2 subs not subs we have today... but then again it’s a video game so no matter how fair or balanced the game will be it will still not be enough for those crybabies that complain about everything... every game experiences those type of players unfortunately.. games cater to garbage players because there’s more of them... 

No it's more that subs are terrible combat ships. The fastest subs of ww2 go the same speed as low tier USN BBs. With many being bogue level snails. 

The only hope they will have is to get to a good position and be area denial threats.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,844 posts
17,666 battles

1st off we will have to wait & see if the proposed CV rework goes into effect as that will be the #1 deciding factor in whether subs will be at all playable.

Main point of that is w/only 1 plane group at a time per CV subs will be viable...w/massive groups of planes flying around at all times subs will never be viable as they have to come up for air at times & a plane sitting on top of their last spotted area will equal instant annihilation for the sub (even if it's just a spotter that can't fire at it as it will still be able to keep it perma-spotted for it's team) & w/multiple groups of planes CVs would easily be able to keep track of them whereas if a CV only has 1 group active at a time he will need to decide if sitting in 1 place waiting for a sub to surface will be worth his time when there will be so many other tasks he could be performing like trying to sink other ships that he can presently see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
2,987 posts
4,421 battles

they might become the most fragile vessel but at the same time the most powerful if played well.i'm sure they won't behave like real life,just like hardly any ship here behave like real life ships.

you know what?i get the feeling it will be the new "CV" of wows. a giant gap between the casual player and the skilled player.

Edited by Cruxdei

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
245
[HC]
[HC]
Beta Testers
1,348 posts
9,546 battles

I don't see submarines functioning well in random games.

Subs have a low speed either surfaced and submerged, and are reliant on torpedoes to do damage. Subs need to be up forward, where they can hit with torpedoes, and where they can get in position with the low speeds.

The problem is, this is going to be in the same area between fleets that destroyers are filling with torpedoes of their own. So either the subs are preventing friendly DD's from launching torpedoes, or they are going to get hit by somebodies torps.

If the submarines are further back, they become the equivalent of destroyers firing from the back line though friendlies, they'll hit more friendlies than enemies.

They might work in scenario's or game modes that are intended for submarines, and maybe clan battles or competitive games where they will have a defined role and the coordination required for them to be effective. In random they'll be nothing but boats to troll people in (both their own team and the other guys) and they will be in effect, bad destroyers.

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,263
[FOXEH]
Beta Testers
8,803 posts
15,265 battles
56 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

The fastest subs of ww2 go the same speed as low tier USN BBs. With many being bogue level snails. 

Actually, that is surfaced speed ... most WW2 era subs were only capable of single digit speed while submerged, depending on their battery charge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,198
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
6,811 posts
10,343 battles

Submarines will never be balanced for the same reason that WG has gotten rid of OWSF, nerfed smoke-shooting and is planning to reduce CV alpha and spotting.

It's inherently broken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,291 posts
4,132 battles
1 hour ago, Umikami said:

Actually, that is surfaced speed ... most WW2 era subs were only capable of single digit speed while submerged, depending on their battery charge.

Iirc the USN top ww2 sub was low 20s surfaced and top uboat was nearly as fast submerged like 19 kts. The IJN also had a 19 kts submerged sub, but we are taking tier 9-10 at that point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,412
[PNG]
Supertester, Beta Testers
5,664 posts
6,472 battles

I think restricting ship types would make subs more fun to play, or adding an escort mode with defined objective lines. Rather than filling an ocean with potentially AFK or ineffective subs, make flashpoints.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
151
[ENDVR]
Members
422 posts
5,333 battles

I just want to know if you come up from submerged under a red ship if it will count as a ram.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,273
[RKLES]
Members
7,214 posts
9,006 battles
3 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

I don't see submarines functioning well in random games.

Subs have a low speed either surfaced and submerged, and are reliant on torpedoes to do damage. Subs need to be up forward, where they can hit with torpedoes, and where they can get in position with the low speeds.

The problem is, this is going to be in the same area between fleets that destroyers are filling with torpedoes of their own. So either the subs are preventing friendly DD's from launching torpedoes, or they are going to get hit by somebodies torps.

If the submarines are further back, they become the equivalent of destroyers firing from the back line though friendlies, they'll hit more friendlies than enemies.

They might work in scenario's or game modes that are intended for submarines, and maybe clan battles or competitive games where they will have a defined role and the coordination required for them to be effective. In random they'll be nothing but boats to troll people in (both their own team and the other guys) and they will be in effect, bad destroyers.

 

Actually Subs would probably not function well in Clan Battles because you get a good clan with voice comms, they will work to together to kill the sub. Randoms it might depend whether it’s weekends or not. In current form I can do well on CVs on weekends, Summer Vacation, or other times when kids are off school. But during the day on weekdays during school year everyone packs the AA and often are smarter. 

So Randoms instead of showering the sub with coordinated focused fire the Randoms teams on weekends may eith run in all directions in panic, all go to where the sub was last sighted  and spend entire battle there while the sub travels across map to their base and caps it, or sub leads the enemy lemming train on while goose chase, or enemy team sails around completely clueless about subs lurking nearby.

I am certainly open to having subs added if done right and even if they are in the same category as CVs for me where I only use them sometimes if player quality is really bad on a day. Otherwise I use BBs, CAs, and DDs far more heavily, except Russian ships which I don’t use at all, Russian ships  are pretty much only ships I don’t use for many reasons.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
517
[POP]
Members
1,165 posts
15,080 battles

Hi

Since Subs are slow whether on the surface or under water my guess is that WG will have both teams Subs spawn at the opposite ends of there own teams or at least somewhere closer to the enemy than the main fleet spawn.

 A game of 20 minutes will not give the Sub time to get into position to attack, its really the only choice WG have, you cant have it spawn with the fleet because it needs to dive or it will just get blown out of the water driving at full speed on the surface to quick.

Tier 10 Subs will not be in Clan battle just like CV's are not, again its the time factor, tier 10 ships are just to fast and remember Sub torpedos are slower than most ships based torpedoes.

Its a nice idea to debate and discuss and I enjoy it but there is still a big IF that they will indeed actually make it into anything other than Coop or a specific designed mode or just come out every Halloween.

I can see Subs being part of operations that WG design as enemy combatants that would be grate.

Another factor you have to look at is the higher the tier ship the bigger the map which again comes back to the time factor, you have high tier on low tier maps just so the Sub has a chance to get into the actions sorry not going to work unless again as I say they spawn in or around a enemy fleet.

regards 

Edited by tm63au

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
199
[XG]
Members
121 posts
2,939 battles

From what I gleaned from the recent podcast, one of the options is to give the iron coffins special forward-deployed spawn points on the maps to compensate for slowness. If they give the sewer pipes longer oxygen time than the cap timers, I think you're going to see a lot of uncontestable stealth capping.  The only counter will be to wait out the dive time in smoke with hydro running and hope you don't get radared.

In other words, subs will just be slower, somewhat stealthier DDs.

Boring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,739
[INTEL]
Members
8,588 posts
25,732 battles
On 9/24/2018 at 8:24 PM, Cruxdei said:

they might become the most fragile vessel but at the same time the most powerful if played well.i'm sure they won't behave like real life,just like hardly any ship here behave like real life ships.

you know what?i get the feeling it will be the new "CV" of wows. a giant gap between the casual player and the skilled player.

...and like CVs, violently hated  by those of us who came to play the game. 

  • Cool 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
1,249 posts
8,126 battles
54 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

...and like CVs, violently hated  by those of us who came to play the game. 

Except for those of us who come to play the game and don't hate CV's.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,263
[FOXEH]
Beta Testers
8,803 posts
15,265 battles
7 hours ago, StoneRhino said:

Iirc the USN top ww2 sub was low 20s surfaced and top uboat was nearly as fast submerged like 19 kts. The IJN also had a 19 kts submerged sub, but we are taking tier 9-10 at that point.

I was thinking of the older boats from between the wars and early WW2, like the "S" boats for example, which is where most of the game supposedly takes place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,683
Supertester, Alpha Tester
6,042 posts

How to make subs effective?


Give them their own game.

 

  • Cool 2
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,739
[INTEL]
Members
8,588 posts
25,732 battles
16 hours ago, Nukelavee45 said:

Except for those of us who come to play the game and don't hate CV's.

Very likely, as with CVs, people who want subs will prove to be a minority. Hopefully like CVs no one will play them. 

  • Cool 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
1,249 posts
8,126 battles
3 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Very likely, as with CVs, people who want subs will prove to be a minority. Hopefully like CVs no one will play them. 

Very likely, by most, you mean "Taichunger for certain, after that, some undefined number that may or may not be a majority, but is likely vastly smaller than the number who just don't care at all."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,291 posts
4,132 battles
4 hours ago, Umikami said:

I was thinking of the older boats from between the wars and early WW2, like the "S" boats for example, which is where most of the game supposedly takes place.

Ya I was pointing out that the best speed you'll get at tier 10 subs is the same as USN tier 4+ BBs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
32 posts
1,237 battles

Just my opinion but if subs are added to the main game they'll have a speed buff.  I just don't see them adding strictly historical speeds in this case.  I think we'll see 20 to 30 knots on the surface and 10 to 20 knots submerged, depending on tier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,367
[SYN]
Members
4,548 posts
11,437 battles
3 minutes ago, Cpt_Whiskey72 said:

Just my opinion but if subs are added to the main game they'll have a speed buff.  I just don't see them adding strictly historical speeds in this case.  I think we'll see 20 to 30 knots on the surface and 10 to 20 knots submerged, depending on tier.

After all, WG has some ***coughRussiancough*** ships in the game that can maneuver while making just short of 50 knots without breaking themselves apart.  I don't think a speed buff for subs is beyond these guys.  :Smile_teethhappy:

...especially if they're Russian subs.

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×