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Should the USN/PA 5"/38mm be buffed?

Buff the USN 5"?  

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With how the game is now, I find these guns rather lackluster. They do negligible damage to cruisers completely (and also are awful in open or under radar). They're ......... kinda okay against BBs in smoke??? But a reminder that smoke is rarely used now due to radar prevalence. Also if you want to talk numerically and not just mouth-breathe counter example, generally one finds that the total dmg from guns and fires from USN/PA guns in a match is 20k in t10. Out of 100k healable HP. This is definitely lackluster. 

 

I do hear game history wise that they were nerfed from their historical ballistics. Is this true? 

 

Seems like these guns make these ships more torp boats than gunboats nowadays lol. 

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Rate of fire was nerfed by about 1/3 across the board for secondary mounts on all ships except for Massachusetts. Most lower/mid tier ships that use them as primary batteries are at least close to normal values (except for the Atlanta's which are also nerfed). High tier destroyers are pretty much at normal achieved rates of fire. In terms of ballistics, they are working as intended, its just everything else which has made them lackluster.

 

WG should have never given the 10 cm inbuilt IFHE tbqh.

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5" is not 38mm, the 38 is the barrel length in calibres

Edited by b101uk
removed the "y" from the end of "length" d'oh
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They should, if nothing else, buff the ROF to 15-22 rpm across the board.  Ideally, buff rof and maybe a 10-15% increase in accuracy.

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1 hour ago, KnightFandragon said:

They should, if nothing else, buff the ROF to 15-22 rpm across the board.  Ideally, buff rof and maybe a 10-15% increase in accuracy.

Dispersion isn't the issue. The main thing that causes these and (and to a lesser extent US CL/CA guns and most DD guns) is their arc. Most people are gripping about English DDs for the same reason.

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the YY is the most competitive DD in the game right now.

I would also assert that the YY completely replaces the Shimakaze's role, and to an extent the Gearings role.

The gearing is also arguably a better torp boat than Shima. 

 

I wouldnt be against a buff, but i would strongly caution it. so my vote is no.

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8 minutes ago, JediMasterDraco said:

Dispersion isn't the issue. The main thing that causes these and (and to a lesser extent US CL/CA guns and most DD guns) is their arc. Most people are gripping about English DDs for the same reason.

Plus in my own testing, secondaries aim center mass on ships belt armor, so terrible arc+bad acc makes it even worse.

I took my AL against stationary ai NCs and noticed the guns were most effective around 4 ish km.  Further the acc misses to much, closer and every round is bouncing off the belt armor.  I got real close and saw my secondaries aiming at the belt and not the upper works.

So change the aimpoint for the guns along with some lead, topped with slight buffs would b good.

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Buffing these guns on High Tier USN / PA DDs?  No.  They're pretty good guns already.  On the flip side are IJN DD guns not mounted on the Akizuki family of DDs.  They're hot garbage.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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If your doing 20k unless it's all fires some of that is non heal-able - as pen damage at most 50% is healed. It's part of the issue with fires because as much as yes, that is itself able to be healed, IFHE has made HE an overly reliable damage source, and put it on something like Atlanta, it doesn't matter what angle the armour is it can just melt through it with sheer volume, only I think tier 9 or any BB at tier 8 that has 28+ mm of armour around the ship/bow. Then again, USN has never been a BB hunter, other than higher tiers that have the stealth torp ability, and PA their whole thing is "hey, we nerfed Japan's torps more than we should have, but here's a line with even more OP ones, they just don't hit other DD's". Seriously, people complain about the Kami clones, whose unnerfed torps match all other nations spotting above 65 knot speed, and leave just over 7.6 seconds to react with Vig, TSAM, etc, as opposed to the 6.4 or 4.8 of Jianwei, and YY's leave 4.38 seconds to react. Gearings are 7.9 seconds to react. Shimakaze - what is supposed to be the actual torp boat of the tier, has 8.82 seconds reaction on the suicide range 8 km torps, 9.45 on the 12 km torps that are the really only useful option with out getting into a good chance of getting killed, and while yes the skill wall need a nerf the 20 km torps are now spotted a whopping 15 seconds before impact. And I'm pretty sure that the USN and most, if not all, PA DD's have better guns in terms of rotation and RoF and more HP. 

 

The day I agree those 127 mm guns deserve a buff - unless they are secondary guns on a ship, is the day IJN ships have their torpedo spotting ranges brought back down to the equal ranges as all other nations in game at certain speed values. All these other nations, that are gunship/hybrid DD's have second and a half, two second advantages in when their torps are spotted, even with similar torp speed and range. As it stands, both USN and PA are both good DD hunters still, getting close and using RoFand once they gain stealth torp abilities, have become better, and significantly better, BB hunters than IJN. 

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All 5"/38 caliber secondaries (excluding Massachusetts) should get a range buff. Rate of fire (excluding Massachusetts) should be 15 rounds per minute per gun which means a 4 second reload time. Massachusetts already has the range but her rate of fire should be 20 rounds per minute per gun meaning a 3 second reload time.

Secondaries firing HE need to stop aiming for the waterline of battleships, it's stupid.

I'm opposed to more IFHE because built-in IFHE shouldn't be a balancing mechanism. It should be the same for everyone.

Edited by Lampshade_M1A2
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The 5"/38 destroyer guns need nothing as of now. They are already fine guns in the hands of someone who knows how to aim and the RoF for them on Benson/Fletcher/Gearing is good as it is.

 

For secondaries, I would hesitate to buff the range of them. USN battleships don't really need to have the secondary range, and even if they did they would not be of much use unless you go all out with maximum secondary build (which is a meme and not serious or good). 5" HE would IFHE to be of decent effectiveness, and IFHE needs to be redone anyway. As for their RoF as secondaries, I would say a 1 second decrease in reload time would be fine. 10 rds/min is just appalling for what they were capable of, and bumping them to 12 rds/min (5 second reload) would make them more useful than they are now.

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Just now, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

Secondaries firing HE need to stop aiming for the waterline of battleships, it's stupid.

 

then they would need multiple aim points, as it is they are best used at range to take advantage of the softer BB superstructure etc via the angle of fall, in essence if they are hitting the belt your not playing to their strengths of keeping above their medium range distance but instead their limitation when it comes to BB's.

 

i.e. be within your secondary range BUT outside their secondary range in the main when it comes to other BB's which don't in-game have strong secondary's or have shorter range secondary's.

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2 minutes ago, b101uk said:

then they would need multiple aim points, as it is they are best used at range to take advantage of the softer BB superstructure etc via the angle of fall, in essence if they are hitting the belt your not playing to their strengths of keeping above their medium range distance but instead their limitation when it comes to BB's.

Why not multiple aim points then? Let the player select them. It would be a slight improvement from ctrl + left click.

WoWS Blitz allows for full manual control of secondaries too, the main game really needs to implement that.

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17 minutes ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

Why not multiple aim points then? Let the player select them. It would be a slight improvement from ctrl + left click.

probably because they would be more prone to missing the ship all together and would be just as useless as hitting the belt unless you were at point blank range, which given we are talking US 5"/38, is not where your US BB should be in the main.

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2 hours ago, Hanger_18 said:

the YY is the most competitive DD in the game right now.

I would also assert that the YY completely replaces the Shimakaze's role, and to an extent the Gearings role.

The gearing is also arguably a better torp boat than Shima. 

 

I wouldnt be against a buff, but i would strongly caution it. so my vote is no.

YY cannot torpedo other dds be it sailing or in smpke. In addition, YY can't carry radar and smoke like Z52 with smoke + hydro.

YY, is competitive due to concealment and deep water torps. But against dds like super akizuki, khaba? Helpless.

 

P.S

PA dds can't equip dfaa.

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1 hour ago, godzilla5549 said:

The 5"/38 destroyer guns need nothing as of now. They are already fine guns in the hands of someone who knows how to aim and the RoF for them on Benson/Fletcher/Gearing is good as it is.

 

For secondaries, I would hesitate to buff the range of them. USN battleships don't really need to have the secondary range, and even if they did they would not be of much use unless you go all out with maximum secondary build (which is a meme and not serious or good). 5" HE would IFHE to be of decent effectiveness, and IFHE needs to be redone anyway. As for their RoF as secondaries, I would say a 1 second decrease in reload time would be fine. 10 rds/min is just appalling for what they were capable of, and bumping them to 12 rds/min (5 second reload) would make them more useful than they are now.

For DD MB, 5/38s don't need a buff but, the 5/38s on Atlanta and Flint could use a ~5-12° rof buff. The secondary 5/38 kounts dont need range, or ifhe: rof. Give secondary 5/38 mounts a 5 second reload, they would help compensate for the lack of torpedoes and turtleback.

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13 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

YY cannot torpedo other dds be it sailing or in smpke. In addition, YY can't carry radar and smoke like Z52 with smoke + hydro.

YY, is competitive due to concealment and deep water torps. But against dds like super akizuki, khaba? Helpless.

 

P.S

PA dds can't equip dfaa.

no it cant torpedo other DDs, because it has a more reliable way of dealing with other DDs than hoping theyre bad enough to sit in smoke. you have radar, which means you can actually shoot at them, along with the rest of your team.

akizuki and khab are not competitive ships, they cant contest cap, and if you come across them, you can keep them perma spotted. And you can win a fight with a khaba, apply AP as needed. YY is a literal counter to the Z-52. like you can just radar him in smoke, and he cant reach you with hydro. so hes just in his own smoke blind. more so you can spot him with better concealment, which will lead to smoke and hydro, which you dump on.

DFAA is pointless in competitive and even in randoms for the most part. 

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8 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

no it cant torpedo other DDs, because it has a more reliable way of dealing with other DDs than hoping theyre bad enough to sit in smoke. you have radar, which means you can actually shoot at them, along with the rest of your team.

akizuki and khab are not competitive ships, they cant contest cap, and if you come across them, you can keep them perma spotted. And you can win a fight with a khaba, apply AP as needed. YY is a literal counter to the Z-52. like you can just radar him in smoke, and he cant reach you with hydro. so hes just in his own smoke blind.

DFAA is pointless in competitive and even in randoms for the most part. 

the 5/38 doesn't have the firepower to blap a z52 in what ~15s of radar on its own. The Akizuki derivatives have nothing to fear from pa dds due to better shell arcs, range and velocity. YY is good at one thing over gearing: spotting. 

 

Notser did a video on radar YY in ranked. If i find it il link it.

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Just now, Crokodone said:

the 5/38 doesn't have the firepower to blap a z52 in what ~15s of radar on its own. The Akizuki derivatives have nothing to fear from pa dds due to better shell arcs, range and velocity. YY is good at one thing over gearing: spotting. 

 

Notser did a video on radar YY in ranked. If i find it il link it.

its a lot longer than 15seconds...its 24 seconds.and its enough to kill most DDs, without help.

aki is perma spotted by YY, and again, radar.

notser is not a competitive player. and ive seen his video about the YY, which he couldnt figure out. simple concept. cap turns colors, you radar.

there is a reason the YY leads gearing in WR by 4%. its because its a better gearing.YY leads WR for all DDs though, so its not a 1 off.

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2 hours ago, Hanger_18 said:

the YY is the most competitive DD in the game right now.

I would also assert that the YY completely replaces the Shimakaze's role, and to an extent the Gearings role.

The gearing is also arguably a better torp boat than Shima. 

 

I wouldnt be against a buff, but i would strongly caution it. so my vote is no.

>Gearing is better torp boat than Shima

OMEGALUL

Blame that to the 20km camping scrubs who drags down the Shima's true potential as torpedoboat. 

The fact that it has the flexibility of three torpedo launchers alone makes me disagree with Gearing being a better torpedoboat.

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17 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

>Gearing is better torp boat than Shima

OMEGALUL

Blame that to the 20km camping scrubs who drags down the Shima's true potential as torpedoboat. 

The fact that it has the flexibility of three torpedo launchers alone makes me disagree with Gearing being a better torpedoboat.

torpedos that arent visible from space are a good plus. The spread on the shima is so bad the third launcher is basically just covers for that. the yugumo with TRB is better than the shima if were just counting torps dropped. not to mention the torp selection is eh... the 8km are suicide, the 20s are useless. so youre left with 1 choice, and its not that good. 153 sec reload? high vis? meh speed.

not to mention the variety of ways these torps and the shima can get shut down.

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3 hours ago, Hanger_18 said:

torpedos that arent visible from space are a good plus. The spread on the shima is so bad the third launcher is basically just covers for that. the yugumo with TRB is better than the shima if were just counting torps dropped. not to mention the torp selection is eh... the 8km are suicide, the 20s are useless. so youre left with 1 choice, and its not that good. 153 sec reload? high vis? meh speed.

not to mention the variety of ways these torps and the shima can get shut down.

The 12km torp visibility isn't as bad as the 20km ones, they're perfectly serviceable. 
The "Gearing has a tighter torpedo spread than Shima" is a myth as all torpedoes have equal RNG torpedo speads. Even the Gearing follows the same RNG torpedo spread as Shima. It's just player bias to see it as such.

You clearly do not see the strength of having a third torpedo launcher. Say we have both a Gearing and Shima. Gearing launches it's two torpedo launchers, and Shima, instead of launching three, launches two instead. This leaves  a third launcher ready to be used in any situation, which Gearing cannot do. And if Shima does this staggered 2 - 1 launches, torpedo reload doesn't matter that much.

You may argue, "But Gearing torpedoes have lower detection than Shima, therefore it can hit more!" Well, that means absolutely nothing in a situation where torpedoes are detected via planes or hydro, in which the things that matter are torpedo speed and torpedo damage. If torpedoes are detected out earlier, torpedoes that travel faster and inflict more damage hurts harder, and in this case Shima has the upper hand in both, with the higher speed, higher damage and higher flooding chance than Gearing torpedoes. Personally I believe that torpedo detection is a very overrated stat, as even the deepwater torps can be dodged via pre-emptive WASD and still be detected further out just the same via hydro and planes.

This is 2018, and the fact that the DD gameplay meta has already changed thanks to radar has already forced many gunboat DDs to use the same gameplay IJN DDs did since a long time ago, which I find really funny.

Also, this is getting out of topic as this thread is talking about the USN/PA DD guns. Which, in my opinion, are fine as they are. 

Edited by RyuuohD_NA
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1 hour ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

The 12km torp visibility isn't as bad as the 20km ones, they're perfectly serviceable. 
The "Gearing has a tighter torpedo spread than Shima" is a myth as all torpedoes have equal RNG torpedo speads. Even the Gearing follows the same RNG torpedo spread as Shima. It's just player bias to see it as such.

You clearly do not see the strength of having a third torpedo launcher. Say we have both a Gearing and Shima. Gearing launches it's two torpedo launchers, and Shima, instead of launching three, launches two instead. This leaves  a third launcher ready to be used in any situation, which Gearing cannot do. And if Shima does this staggered 2 - 1 launches, torpedo reload doesn't matter that much.

You may argue, "But Gearing torpedoes have lower detection than Shima, therefore it can hit more!" Well, that means absolutely nothing in a situation where torpedoes are detected via planes or hydro, in which the things that matter are torpedo speed and torpedo damage. If torpedoes are detected out earlier, torpedoes that travel faster and inflict more damage hurts harder, and in this case Shima has the upper hand in both, with the higher speed, higher damage and higher flooding chance than Gearing torpedoes. Personally I believe that torpedo detection is a very overrated stat, as even the deepwater torps can be dodged via pre-emptive WASD and still be detected further out just the same via hydro and planes.

This is 2018, and the fact that the DD gameplay meta has already changed thanks to radar has already forced many gunboat DDs to use the same gameplay IJN DDs did since a long time ago, which I find really funny.

Also, this is getting out of topic as this thread is talking about the USN/PA DD guns. Which, in my opinion, are fine as they are. 

So if you don't fire the third launcher, then you are now exactly, a worse gearing. Why are you saving this? In case you come across something unexpected? Hoping a DD is trash enough to get hit by a single spread? If only you took a ship with serviceable guns....

 

If the torps are spotted further out...wouldn't it be nice to you know, have torps that aren't spotted from nearly 2km. The other ships don't have worry as much because they have reasonable detection ranges. Planes and ships are both less likely to detect them. The Gearing and the YY both have shorter reaction times than the shima which has a reaction time so long you could basically swing half the ship around. Which leads to more hits, which yields an even higher chance to flood.

The torpedoes the shimakaze has are questionable at best with their detection and reaction time. The ship has no other redeeming factors outside stealth, which is being mitigated constantly. You are right it is 2018 and the shima is a ship that's been garbage since 2016. It has been the single worst t10 for years. Who on earth would want a ship whose highlight is a primary armament that is basically defective. 

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I might add a division for buff only DD guns, or add non-Mass secondaries. 

Though honestly, an ATL or USN BB with real secondaries sounds... quite intimidating. Maybe not to the extent DD guns should work. 

I think the ballistics might be where it could be helped? Give them better effective range. 

 

And I do agree, YY is probably one of the better DDs, and Shima is hot garbage. 

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