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_Marines

What makes Arizona so much stronger than New Mexico?

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So much so that Arizona is the single highest xp earning ship in that tier, while New Mexico is the single worst. I browsed through their stats and armour and couldn't truly identify any material differences. Are Arizona's guns dealing so much more damage because they are more accurate?

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Yes. 

The New Mexico's guns are supposed to be rather inaccurate, so imagine what happens when you increase the accuracy of 12 14" rifles. 

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Average XP is influenced by premium time. More players with a premium ship will have premium time over a bunch of players with New Mexico.

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37 minutes ago, Cruiser_Noshiro said:

Average XP is influenced by premium time. More players with a premium ship will have premium time over a bunch of players with New Mexico.

Premium ships also get a buff to experience.

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There is the important fact that most people are simply trying to grind through that big steaming pile of New Mexico, so they can get to the even bigger steaming pile of Colorado. Arizona players, in contrast, actually wanted the ship badly enough to give money for it, so they put more effort into making it work.

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Arizona has a 1.8 sigma while NM has I think 1.6 or 1.5. At one point, Arizona had 2.0 sigma making her extremely dominant.

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AZ has way more consistent gunnery.

WAYYY more.

As soon as AZ released she immediately began her reign atop Tier VI Battleships.

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48 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

AZ has way more consistent gunnery.

WAYYY more.

As soon as AZ released she immediately began her reign atop Tier VI Battleships.

Warspite would like a word with you...

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18 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Warspite would like a word with you...

It can have a word, then Arizona'll push it's backdoor in.  Warspite wins less, and it does less damage per game.  It averages less frags/game and has a worse k/d ratio.  It's better at shooting down planes than Arizona is though.  I guess that counts for something.

Arizona's going to be dethroned by West Virginia/Maryland though.  16-inchers with better armor and better stealth is going to be a nasty customer.

Edited by crzyhawk

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In addition to the sigma, AZ has armor that can bounce 356-357mm rifle which is pretty common around Tier V-VI and also has one of the best torpedo belts in the game (iirc 40% reduction or so).

Edited by warheart1992

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58 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Warspite would like a word with you...

Warspite has floaty shells.

 

Regardless, I don't even play my Tier VI BBs anymore.  I play Tier VII-VIII and devour Tier VI BBs :Smile_teethhappy:

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5 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Warspite has floaty shells.

 

Regardless, I don't even play my Tier VI BBs anymore.  I play Tier VII-VIII and devour Tier VI BBs :Smile_teethhappy:

May just be my aim or something or the fact I have not gotten my hands on Arizona, but I usually have no trouble getting my Warspite shells through even tier 8 BB armor, often most of them hit, and they hit really hard. Warspite AP does wonders. But I am open to the idea that most of the Arizona players I have faced are simply inexperienced, since that is the nature of war games is often not entirely knowing if other player simply made mistakes, your good, or simply what you used was better.

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5 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

It can have a word, then Arizona'll push it's backdoor in.  Warspite wins less, and it does less damage per game.  It averages less frags/game and has a worse k/d ratio.  It's better at shooting down planes than Arizona is though.  I guess that counts for something.

Arizona's going to be dethroned by West Virginia/Maryland though.  16-inchers with better armor and better stealth is going to be a nasty customer.

West Virginia was Pennsylvania Class BB that had 4 dual gun turrets instead of triple guns in each turret. 16’ guns could be good in a tier VI BB, or they could have miserable dispersion and pen. I have seen 16’ guns in game be either really good or really bad so we will just have to see how that turns out.

You give an example of what might happen from WOT, you take an 88mm German gun and a Russian 152mm KV-2 gun, who will likely kill the other at long range? The German gun may be smaller caliber than the Russian one, but the accuracy and velocity makes up for it. (Lol although bit of a hypocritical argument since I love using 18.1’ guns on Yamato...)

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There are a couple minor differences with the Arizona over the New Mexico that really sets her apart, and it's not just her guns.

  • Her guns have a 1.8 sigma vs the New Mexico's 1.5.  She doesn't have as high of a shell velocity or penetration, but she'll land more rounds.
  • The upper armor belt of the Arizona is 37mm, whereas the upper armor belt of the New Mexico and Colorado is 25mm.  This allows the Arizona to bounce heavy caliber shells at angles that are overmatched on the New Mexico.

More precise, better armor; two traits that give her more reliability against enemy fire.

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

West Virginia was Pennsylvania Class BB that had 4 dual gun turrets instead of triple guns in each turret. 16’ guns could be good in a tier VI BB, or they could have miserable dispersion and pen. I have seen 16’ guns in game be either really good or really bad so we will just have to see how that turns out.

You give an example of what might happen from WOT, you take an 88mm German gun and a Russian 152mm KV-2 gun, who will likely kill the other at long range? The German gun may be smaller caliber than the Russian one, but the accuracy and velocity makes up for it. (Lol although bit of a hypocritical argument since I love using 18.1’ guns on Yamato...)

I know exactly what the West Virginia was.  She was a Colorado class ship, with 8 16-inch 45 caliber guns.  She has 1.8 sigma (BB standard) and has better concealment than the Arizona.  She has better armor than the Arizona.  These are already released numbers.  She's keeping the same shells that he has now, so pen will stay the same.  I don't think dispersion is released yet.  There is literally no reason to believe that this ship is not going to be very good for a T6 BB.  People simply want to cry because they are not getting the WV 44 edition.

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On 9/22/2018 at 11:24 AM, Ranari said:

There are a couple minor differences with the Arizona over the New Mexico that really sets her apart, and it's not just her guns.

  • Her guns have a 1.8 sigma vs the New Mexico's 1.5.  She doesn't have as high of a shell velocity or penetration, but she'll land more rounds.
  • The upper armor belt of the Arizona is 37mm, whereas the upper armor belt of the New Mexico and Colorado is 25mm.  This allows the Arizona to bounce heavy caliber shells at angles that are overmatched on the New Mexico.

More precise, better armor; two traits that give her more reliability against enemy fire.

Makes lots of sense.:Smile_great:

Edited by _Marines

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6 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

May just be my aim or something or the fact I have not gotten my hands on Arizona, but I usually have no trouble getting my Warspite shells through even tier 8 BB armor, often most of them hit, and they hit really hard. Warspite AP does wonders. But I am open to the idea that most of the Arizona players I have faced are simply inexperienced, since that is the nature of war games is often not entirely knowing if other player simply made mistakes, your good, or simply what you used was better.

With the Tier VIII BBs, they can assume angles that will bounce the worst effects of any 380/381mm AP.  Warspite will not be able to do the same when North Carolina, Amagi, Alabama return fire.  Even Bismarck's POS 380mm guns will Overmatch and defeat Warspite's protection at any angle.  But this isn't a problem solely for Warspite.  It's a natural problem Tier VI-VII BBs deal with against Tier VIII or higher BBs (IX in the case of VII BBs).

 

Warspite is very strong in Tier VI, but the way MM treats Tier V-VI, it's kind of a problem.  Warspite, AZ, Fuso are mighty Tier VI BBs, but in the Tier VIII match, not really.  Now, I know some out there will say it's unfair to compare a Tier VI BB to a Tier VIII, but the reality is that's what MM gives them so much of anyways.  In the old MM without the tier protection of Tier IV that exists today, Warspite, Arizona were much, MUCH better.  Imagine them beating up on Tier IVs but still getting the occasional Tier VII-VIII match.  I was fine with that.  I played lots and lots of AZ in those days.  But now facing NCs, Amagis, Bismarcks, Tirpitz all the time, no thanks.  Or worse, Tier VIII CV attacking Tier VI BBs.

 

Even a Tier VIII Amagi, NC, Bismarck can assume angles to heavily mitigate the effects of the shells from Tier X Montana, GK, Republique because their armor is heavy enough to face Tier X.  Their guns are strong enough.  The Tier VI BB in a Tier VIII environment doesn't have any of those benefits.  It's a very one-sided display of power.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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On 9/22/2018 at 4:37 AM, crzyhawk said:

Arizona's going to be dethroned by West Virginia/Maryland though.  16-inchers with better armor and better stealth is going to be a nasty customer.

I'm hoping at least one of these are brawlers (captain will use AFT and CE; MFCSA is nerfed at Tier 6). Currently all Tier 6 BBs are snipers of some sort.

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8 hours ago, _Marines said:

I'm hoping at least one of these are brawlers (captain will use AFT and CE; MFCSA is nerfed at Tier 6). Currently all Tier 6 BBs are snipers of some sort.

It's probably going to be like the Musashi is at T9, but at T6.  Judging by the stats, it's got the same gun performance as the Colorado (not nerfed gun performance like the Mutsu is to the Nagato), which gives it, hands down, the best penetration at T6. Combined with its excellent concealment, ability to overmatch with its 406mm guns, and good accuracy, it looks like it's going to be like a monster. 

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2 hours ago, Ranari said:

It's probably going to be like the Musashi is at T9, but at T6.  Judging by the stats, it's got the same gun performance as the Colorado (not nerfed gun performance like the Mutsu is to the Nagato), which gives it, hands down, the best penetration at T6. Combined with its excellent concealment, ability to overmatch with its 406mm guns, and good accuracy, it looks like it's going to be like a monster. 

In bold are why WV is going to take over as Top Tier VI BB.  If one looks past the "It's not WV with AA Refit!" she is a strong ship for those reasons in bold.  That BB, while slow, is going to surprise even the Cruisers.  She will be stealthier than even Caesar, who in Tier V I call as "Pasta Ninja."

Detection Range Examples:

Tier V Premium Caesar 13.68km

Tier VI Premium Arizona 14.4km

Tier VI New Mexico 14.2km

Tier VI Bayern 13.86km

Tier VI Premium (WiP) Prinz Eitel Friedrich 12.78km

Tier VI Premium Warspite 14.22km

Tier VI Queen Elizabeth 14.4km

Tier VI Premium (WiP)West Virginia 12.4km

Tier VI Normandie 16.2km

Tier VI Dunkerque 16.92km

Tier VI Fuso 18.9km :Smile_teethhappy:

Tier VI Premium Mutsu 16.92km

Tier V Caesar with Stealth Build goes down to 11.4km.  West Virginia will be stealthier than that.  She will outspot even some Cruisers or get terrifyingly close without getting spotted in time.  Some Stealth Build Cruiser Detection Ranges that she can encounter while in Tier VI:

Tier VI Duca 10.3km

Tier VI Premium De Grasse 11.4km

Tier VIII Premium Prinz Eugen 11.5km

Tier VIII Chapayev 11.3km

Tier VI Premium Molotov 11.2km

Tier V Premium Krasny Krym 11.7km :Smile_teethhappy:

Tier VIII Baltimore 10.8km

Tier VI Premium (WiP)West Virginia 12.4km

Add the fact that at Tier V-VI, a number of players will not even have 10pt captains to get Concealment Expert.  WV will get very close to Cruisers.

 

The comment about her inheriting upgraded Colorado's guns, shells is key.  Tier VI Mutsu is a early form of the Nagato-class in Tier VII.  One of the things to balance her for Tier VI was she would not get the upgraded Nagato's Type 91 AP shells which are actually quite strong.  Tier VIII Amagi still uses those as her AP.  West Virginia's shells look the same as Colorado's.  Except for gun range which Colorado is better in (but markedly worse ship concealment), Colorado after these changes late last year...

... She will have 1.9 Sigma to WeeVee's 1.8 Sigma.

 

If we look in terms of a Pure Surface Engagement environment, WV will be more comfortable to play than CO.  They have the same speed.  CO does have more HP.  But WV can sneak around better and surprise people.  Of course, she can't do the "Pasta Ninja Tactics" of Caesar because Caesar is also a lightning fast ship.  The key will be WV's ability to close for the initial attack into very favorable ranges to get a good start.  However, due to the bad speed, she can't get herself out of trouble easily.  Still, if one likes getting into good alpha striking positions to start off a fight, WV will be THE BEST BB for Tier VI in that capacity.  She will EASILY Overmatch any of the other Tier VI BBs.

 

However, that's in a "Pure Surface Engagement" type of fight.  Because anyone that has spent time in Tier V-VI knows that CVs are sort of common there.  Tier V-VI CVs see lots of action.  Tier VII-VIII CVs less so, but enough to be a concern.  Tier VI West Virginia will be right in the middle of the busiest CV Bracket:  Tier V-VIII.  From Zuiho all the way to Graf Zeppelin, Enterprise, Shokaku.  WG has not given WV's AA stats even in the Devblog, but I think it's fair to assume it will be mediocre and will not be Colorado-B Hull quality.  Like AZ, Mutsu, Fuso, etc, CVs will hard counter WV.  Even worse, is the pending CV Revamp.  If the CV Revamp even partially succeeds in bringing some extra interest in CVs, more CVs in a game will impact the comfort of WV the same way it does AZ, Mutsu, etc.  Meanwhile, Colorado with her AA Suite will be sailing along not worried at all.

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On 9/22/2018 at 1:37 AM, crzyhawk said:

It can have a word, then Arizona'll push it's backdoor in.  Warspite wins less, and it does less damage per game.  It averages less frags/game and has a worse k/d ratio.  It's better at shooting down planes than Arizona is though.  I guess that counts for something.

Arizona's going to be dethroned by West Virginia/Maryland though.  16-inchers with better armor and better stealth is going to be a nasty customer.

Most of Warspite's stats is carried over from her old form.

She has been buffed a few times. She is a different kind of beast with fewer guns but she has better overmatch capability. I like both ships but right now I prefer Warspite.

As for West Virginia, she will just be another Mutsu with big guns but not very accurate.

Edited by Exciton8964

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On 9/22/2018 at 12:31 AM, _Marines said:

So much so that Arizona is the single highest xp earning ship in that tier, while New Mexico is the single worst. I browsed through their stats and armour and couldn't truly identify any material differences. Are Arizona's guns dealing so much more damage because they are more accurate?

Untitled.png

More accurate guns, otherwise pretty much the same ship.

Arizona has permanent camouflage that gives +50% to XP like any other premium, not everyone has that for the New Mexico.

There are no "stock" Arizona's grinding though to the next ship and dragging the stats down. For some, the New Mexico is another painfully slow stumbling block on the way to the North Carolina and the Iowa.

Players have purchased the Arizona with real money, and are therefor motivated to make the most out of their investment.

Players that have Arizona's probably learned how to play the slow unforgiving US Navy Standard type Battleship style with the New Mexico, the Arizona's stats don't show the scars from the learning curve, the New Mexico does.

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Truth is the New Mexico needs a bit of a buff. The Arizona is a robust ship but nothing particularly outstanding, much like Warspite in my opinion. She just has the accuracy New Mexico should have.

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On 2018-09-25 at 6:33 PM, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

Truth is the New Mexico needs a bit of a buff. The Arizona is a robust ship but nothing particularly outstanding, much like Warspite in my opinion. She just has the accuracy New Mexico should have.

I agree, i think the new mex needs a bit of love. Of all of the tier 6 bb i can fight, its the least worrisome simply because of how terrible its accuracy is.

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