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Norsehound

Subs might underperform

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I'm one of those guys whose really stoked for Submarines. But as I think about it, they're going to have deficiencies that WG will have to handwave away in order to make them work successfully. Based on the gameplay snippets that we see, I have some concerns if the class will underperform, rather than be these invisible all-killing monsters that never allow anyone to be safe again. Because I assure you, they won't.

The Primary Armament is restrictive
Based on what we've seen in the Halloween gameplay video, you're dropping at most 3 torpedoes before the whole salvo needs to reload. You have a very narrow firing arc, and ZERO secondary weapons. I don't think they're going to give us deck guns guys, or maybe even AA guns (though we do see those at least, so perhaps?)

When I run my IJN DDs, (Specifically Minekaze) I rely on my torp armament first, but I like the reassurances I have with my gun batteries. They aren't the greatest, but I can at least snipe at enemy DDs, or hit near-death BBs when I know my Torpedoes would take too long to get there. A battery of deck guns can be a nice finisher and comfort weapon in case your torpedoes miss, aren't fast enough, or your against a more nimble enemy that can dodge the torpedoes. Submarines do not have this option. Their entire gameplay wins or fails based on if they can get their Torpedoes to hit a target. Expect many frustrating misses you can't do anything about because that Battleship decided to veer juuuust slightly to the left. That's, what, an entire minute of reload time spent?

You may not have enough Air Time to stay under as long as you'd like.

The mechanic makes sense to me, preventing Submarines from, say, staying underwater for most of the game's duration and being the invisible killers players are terrified!! of facing. I see it as much of a fallback mechanic as smoke is for DD players- they need it if they get in trouble and want to sneak around someone. But all it takes is one determined DD player to just... hang out... above the water, circling at full speed, waiting for the DD to run out of air. Even without any countermeasures an enemy DD is fast enough to avoid torps, can quick-fire their own Torps in response, and typically has the fast-cycling guns that will make short work of a surfaced sub.

The only way I see Subs escaping this is to stay hidden and trying to duck behind an island to put some cover between them and the hunter to surface and get some air.

That seems like really restrictive gameplay to me and being very much in favor of the surface ships with quicker guns. If you surface wrong and end up facing something like four boats of the enemy's team, you're going to be an even bigger fire magnet than any destroyer that accidently dips below their concealment range. And if you're slow with no air, it's going to end for you very quickly.

Incidental Rams will kill you

If you're not paying attention in a Submarine, or you try getting underneath your opponent to speed away (at your probaly slow knots), if you're not paying attention the enemy BB will ram you, you will die, and not take away a good portion of their health as-is with nearly every other class collision. You're banking a lot on your stealth and ability to drop torpedoes hidden because, literally, that's all you have. You're trading away everything else that's great about being a boat for that one ability, and you may find it wanting.

 

Good news is all of these issues are without trying the halloween event, which I'm eager to be a part of next month. But I really don't think submarines are the doom-and-gloom the naysayers are portraying. When released, they'll be a hyper-specialized slot catering to sneaky, crafty players who like positioning for that right torp drop and getting away from your opponent- like every IJN player hugging islands are now. And of these expectations, WG doesn't have to go to this bottom limit either; they can have deck guns, their torp reloads might be faster, they may stay hidden for longer, etx.

They're not going to be the apocalypse for WoWs, that honor is probably going to carrier's squadron planes, which can kite and harass you to death then just come back for more with their unlimited planes (If you thought carriers were bad before...)

No, at worst, sub drivers are probably going to find the class frustrating and inefficient to play without WG making essential tweaks. If we read about them, we'd say they're unbalanced, but if we were there on the testing side and watching them struggle to make these things >work< well, you'd understand. Or not, since it's easy to complain on the internet without having any practical knowledge of what you're discussing. Like this very post you finished reading.

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I'm optimistic.

the naysayers are just BBaby's who need to actually learn to play their ship. so their opinons don't matter.

plus Subs with the amount of work they put in, are pretty much confirmed already. WG just wants to ease people into them. expect most of the players who play the game(not the 0.5% of the people on the WOWS reddit/here on the forums) to enjoy the event. WG is really good at leading people on, in order to get them to enjoy something.

 

Their will be some kinks to work out, but nothing like Alpha test was for WOWS in comparison. as their will be adding a new class to the game.

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Yes they have limitations that will be hard to compenstate for in game, but how can it underperform when it or its gameplay is not even released yet? Underporfmance is just a few numbers and stats in the code that need changed, and wargaming will do so accordingly if and when submarines come out

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They might start UP (or OP). 

Probably will be one or the other, at least a little.

Until players get a chance to play and counter them, no way to tell.

I predict some balancing.

WG might want to hold off on selling premiums at the beginning, or invest in pitchforks and torches.

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I do agree with the OP to some extent; however, as already pointed out we are still to see the Halloween event.

Still I do think subs will be capable enough, but I also believe they will not be the almighty damage machines everyone (well not everyone) think they will be; I actually think they’ll go low damage (balancing pending of course), we’ll see.

I also believe WG will not ignore deck guns or AA, but if you run into a situation where you need those... you are already dead.

Edited by CO_Valle

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I for one hope to see good asw being implemented for every class not just dds

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48 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Based on what we've seen in the Halloween gameplay video,

Important to remember, all we've seen is gameplay concept video so far with very little concrete explanation from the developers to accompany it.  Also, as Jingles pointed out in his video on the subject, the Halloween event as shown will only allow WG to gather information on how playable the type is from the perspective of driving one.  Unless they are also added to the OpFor, and players are also allowed to drive surface ships for the event, testing ASW in game is going to require a whole additional process.

Lastly, one of the sub models shown did sport a deck gun - though we didn't see any use of it in the video.  Or even any indication that it would be useable.  I don't think anyone can conclude that it won't be, though.

43 minutes ago, Xplato said:

the naysayers are just BBaby's who need to actually learn to play their ship. so their opinons don't matter.

Assuming that people who disagree with you are stupid and inconsequential merely because they disagree with you is both lazy and dangerous.  Wars have been lost this way.

There have been many arguments against the inclusion of submarines in game that are both intelligent and applicable.  A good number of them have come from WG.

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51 minutes ago, Xplato said:

the naysayers are just BBaby's who need to actually learn to play their ship. so their opinons don't matter.

Oh, go bleep yourself.

I am a BB player.  I'd love to see them on the enemy team.  I just don't want any of the wastes of space on my team.

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Here's the thing, they will underperform.....and be OP all at the same time.

Sub games will come in one of two flavours......tear it up or fall asleep from boredom. A successful attack will mean an instant kill, perhaps two kills if you can line up your bow and stern tubes. Or, you could spend most of your time trying to get into position only to have your target sunk or worse, have him/her turn away and leave you with 0 attack.

This IS the real issue with subs in a naval combat game, those of us who played NavyField have seen it happen. Sure, you can say 'but this isnt NF' and you'd be right, it isnt, but the similarities are there.

Another issue is sub hunting....will DD players even bother?

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2 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

Another issue is sub hunting....will DD players even bother?

If dropping depth charges or launching hedgehogs causes gun bloom, I would guess "No."

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2 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

If dropping depth charges or launching hedgehogs causes gun bloom, I would guess "No."

Or the rewards aren't worth it.

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THIS required TWO posts?

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Perfectly feasible to make subs work, the real question is if it's good for the overall game to have a sub class or not. My guess is we'll be seeing more and more subs in these event/scenario modes just so WG can mess around with them and see what is possible.

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3 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Or the rewards aren't worth it.

The biggest issue is that DD's are already overloaded with tasks, and very fragile once spotted.  Asking them to take on another job that requires them to be well forward and risking being spotted (or lit up by radar at those Tiers) while distracted performing a task that requires them to move, and thus risk being seriously out of position to run/avoid damage is, I am betting, a bridge too far.

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1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

I'm one of those guys whose really stoked for Submarines. But as I think about it, they're going to have deficiencies that WG will have to handwave away in order to make them work successfully.

Halloween is its own weird thing. Between your suspicion they might not be monsters and other people's panic that they are the end of the world as we know it, I suspect we might be in for a pleasant surprise when or if they are ever introduced into regular play.

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18 minutes ago, Fishrokk said:

Important to remember, all we've seen is gameplay concept video so far with very little concrete explanation from the developers to accompany it.  Also, as Jingles pointed out in his video on the subject, the Halloween event as shown will only allow WG to gather information on how playable the type is from the perspective of driving one.  Unless they are also added to the OpFor, and players are also allowed to drive surface ships for the event, testing ASW in game is going to require a whole additional process.

Lastly, one of the sub models shown did sport a deck gun - though we didn't see any use of it in the video.  Or even any indication that it would be useable.  I don't think anyone can conclude that it won't be, though.

Assuming that people who disagree with you are stupid and inconsequential merely because they disagree with you is both lazy and dangerous.  Wars have been lost this way.

There have been many arguments against the inclusion of submarines in game that are both intelligent and applicable.  A good number of them have come from WG.

And hust as many arguments for submarines; people who are invested more than the paper dollar or anime show. 

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9 minutes ago, Sethanas said:

Perfectly feasible to make subs work, the real question is if it's good for the overall game to have a sub class or not. My guess is we'll be seeing more and more subs in these event/scenario modes just so WG can mess around with them and see what is possible.

Given their significance to naval warfare, tbeir exclusion fuels an imbalance.

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No way to guess until after WG balances them, and they will balance them.

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32 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

And hust as many arguments for submarines; people who are invested more than the paper dollar or anime show.

Absolutely.  I wasn't necessarily arguing against submarines.  I'm just saying that none of the intelligent arguments on the subject - either for or against - has ever been, "If you disagree with me, you're a doo-doo head!".

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51 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

Another issue is sub hunting....will DD players even bother?

I have no doubts that a DD could absolutely stomp a submarine in a 1v1 fight. The issue is that battles aren't usually 1v1 fights, that submarine is going to have backup. That backup is going to see the DD rushing in and is going to send it to the bottom faster than the submarine can dive there.

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all i know is im going to take the destroyer or the light cruiser with the best sonar and the most depth charges, and I'll be hunting submarines to extinction. i'll forgo bigger damage numbers just to put the run on them so they're removed forever.

 

NEVER GONNA STOP. NEVER STOPPING.

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Subs go under everything else so underperform is just a continuation.

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What is funny is the sub babies will cry and throw temper tantrums if they can't stay underwater forever, travel at 30 knots underwater, be undetectable, and torpedo every ship in the game. They will cry I only average 8 kills a game subs are under performing.

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46 minutes ago, Flashtirade said:

I have no doubts that a DD could absolutely stomp a submarine in a 1v1 fight. The issue is that battles aren't usually 1v1 fights, that submarine is going to have backup. That backup is going to see the DD rushing in and is going to send it to the bottom faster than the submarine can dive there.

Having bow and stern mounted torpedoes makes most  submarines more than an inconvenience to anyone chasing her submerged. At the same time, slow submerge speeds, even Nautilus would have a very hard time if a DD or CL with hydro pops up around an island.

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49 minutes ago, SinisterSe7en said:

all i know is im going to take the destroyer or the light cruiser with the best sonar and the most depth charges, and I'll be hunting submarines to extinction. i'll forgo bigger damage numbers just to put the run on them so they're removed forever.

 

NEVER GONNA STOP. NEVER STOPPING.

See! You just became the #1 submarine fan and you didn't even know it...

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