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Sir_Orrin

Which nations would get Subs first?

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I'm thinking we'll see the USN and IJN subs first, simply because that's how the tech trees started out.

Plus it will give some time to polish things submarine-wise, so when they do roll out the next line - - U-boats -  they will be everything they should be in the game.

I can't wait to polish off a crippled ship with my deck gun. :cap_rambo:

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2 hours ago, Ghost_Raven75 said:

None of them

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.- Aristotle

I agree with you that they don't have a place in the game, but I could still answer the hypothetical ordering without referencing my overall position because the question does not depend on my opinion of submarines in WoWS.

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27 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.- Aristotle

I agree with you that they don't have a place in the game, but I could still answer the hypothetical ordering without referencing my overall position because the question does not depend on my opinion of submarines in WoWS.

I never referenced my opinion at all.  Its silly that you make assumptions as to what I might or might not have been thinking.  You truly want my opinion?  I'd love to see it happen and think it would be quite interesting.  However, I have also been around long enough to see how this would or would not work and from everything that has been read and observed through demonstrations it won't work in the grand scheme of things......not to mention to overall discouraging opinions of the majority of players who also think it would be a bad idea.  

You quoting Aristotle is laughable at best based on your ASSUMPTION.  You might want to live by the philosophy to which you so proudly quote.

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6 minutes ago, Xplato said:

Cream of the crop....

and yet their most advanced Uboat is outperformed by a 1933 designed USN Class sub, other than underwater speed.

They most certainly were not the cream of the crop. USN, and IJN both outperformed them completely. They were also pretty terrible performance wise in terms of tones sunk, considering how many of them were built.

That is incorrect. U-Boats were the biggest threat in the Atlantic. They were excellent blockade ships and utilized heavily against merchant traffic 175 warships, and 2,825 merchant vessels were sunk because of U-Boats. It was our advances in Anti-Submarine Warfare, that eventually brought an end to the U-Boat Threat. Cracking the Enigma Code Also helped tremendously.

U-Boats weren't outperformed, they were, to put it in gamer's terminology, out played. Big difference.

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5 minutes ago, Ghost_Raven75 said:

I never referenced my opinion at all.

Um... yes you did. It is your opinion that no nation should have submarines. There are others who hold the opinion, that submarines do belong in the game.

Then there are others, in which I myself am on this portion of the submarine in game argument, where our opinion "let's balance what we have first, before we even think about adding any new ship type."

Anyway, point is: You saying "none of them" is your opinion. There is no truth in that statement at all, just an opinion.

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44 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.- Aristotle

I agree with you that they don't have a place in the game, but I could still answer the hypothetical ordering without referencing my overall position because the question does not depend on my opinion of submarines in WoWS.

Ok... Pepperland then!

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Just now, Counter_Gambit said:

Um... yes you did. It is your opinion that no nation should have submarines. There are others who hold the opinion, that submarines do belong in the game.

Then there are others, in which I myself am on this portion of the submarine in game argument, where our opinion "let's balance what we have first, before we even think about adding any new ship type."

Anyway, point is: You saying "none of them" is your opinion. There is no truth in that statement at all, just an opinion.

And you know what the funniest thing about all this is?  Its a post asking for opinions.  But as soon as someone has one that isn't agreed upon they get attacked lol.  You people amuse the heck out of me.  Now back to my original post, No it was not my opinion to be honest, I'll just let you ponder that.  As I said, my true opinion is I would like to see them, however lets be real here.  It won't work just based on the mechanics alone.  SO don't get all upset now because I didn't agree with you.

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11 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

That is incorrect. U-Boats were the biggest threat in the Atlantic. They were excellent blockade ships and utilized heavily against merchant traffic 175 warships, and 2,825 merchant vessels were sunk because of U-Boats. It was our advances in Anti-Submarine Warfare, that eventually brought an end to the U-Boat Threat. Cracking the Enigma Code Also helped tremendously.

U-Boats weren't outperformed, they were, to put it in gamer's terminology, out played. Big difference.

U boats were a threat until Technology made them irrelevant. ever wonder why Germany tonnage drops off the map after 1942? Sonar says high. Radar says high, actual protected ships says high.

They were decent Subs, but in comparison were completely inferior to USN Subs.Barring the XXI. but since only 4 were really completed it's not really in the equation. Uboats were outclassed in Armament, speed, dive depths,technology. and probably the most important survivability.

but you are right they were completely outplayed. Same way the Japanese were outplayed when the USN Subs basically destroyed the entire Japanese shipping, and crippled the IJN by themselves. But American skippers had access to radar attached to their periscopes so that's no real surprise, and well the Japanese couldn't conduct ASW to save their life.

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7 minutes ago, Xplato said:

U boats were a threat until Technology made them irrelevant. ever wonder why Germany tonnage drops off the map after 1942? Sonar says high. Radar says high, actual protected ships says high.

They were decent Subs, but in comparison were completely inferior to USN Subs.Barring the XXI. but since only 4 were really completed it's not really in the equation. Uboats were outclassed in Armament, speed, dive depths,technology. and probably the most important survivability.

but you are right they were completely outplayed. Same way the Japanese were outplayed when the USN Subs basically destroyed the entire Japanese shipping, and crippled the IJN by themselves. But American skippers had access to radar attached to their periscopes so that's no real surprise, and well the Japanese couldn't conduct ASW to save their life.

This is not true, actually, but the examples where they did well at it are few and far in between, and usually those instances took place in shallow harbors, where depth charges are super accurate and super effective against subs anyway. The Emily was actually a decent ASW plane, there just weren't enough of them, and those that there were were usually out on scouting/recon missions.

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6 minutes ago, legoboy0401 said:

This is not true, actually, but the examples where they did well at it are few and far in between, and usually those instances took place in shallow harbors, where depth charges are super accurate and super effective against subs anyway. The Emily was actually a decent ASW plane, there just weren't enough of them, and those that there were were usually out on scouting/recon missions.

Exactly my point. compare the amount of ASW, of the Allied  nations to the Japanese. USN Subs had to deal with far less ASW, less effective ASW, and had more experienced Skippers. meaning they massacred the Japanese Shipping, and Naval capacity.

Germany had to deal with updated ASW, protected convoys, new technology that made convoys spot them extremely easy, making night attacks almost mandatory, which GG when Radar became commonplace on DD later on in the war. and the amount of shipping sunk couldn't put a dent in the speed that the allies replaced ships, and their crews.

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IF subs come to PvP, i imagine the Germans because the U-boats are probably the most well known submarines of WW2

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11 minutes ago, Xplato said:

U boats were a threat until Technology made them irrelevant. ever wonder why Germany tonnage drops off the map after 1942? Sonar says high. Radar says high, actual protected ships says high.

They were decent Subs, but in comparison were completely inferior to USN Subs.Barring the XXI. but since only 4 were really completed it's not really in the equation. Uboats were outclassed in Armament, speed, dive depths,technology. and probably the most important survivability.

but you are right they were completely outplayed. Same way the Japanese were outplayed when the USN Subs basically destroyed the entire Japanese shipping, and crippled the IJN by themselves. But American skippers had access to radar attached to their periscopes so that's no real surprise, and well the Japanese couldn't conduct ASW to save their life.

The breaking point in the Atlantic was March 1943.

While there were different countermeasures by the Germans, they lacked imagination. They couldn't belive that the RN developed a better radar then they self (centimeter wavelenght)and they thought Enigma was unbreakable. Also: the convoy system, planes with enough range to cover the important sealanes, carriers and the creation of the hunter/killer groups. While Churchill could be a real blockhead sometimes he listen to his commanders. 

USN subs were build for a different enviroment then the Germans. The idea behind them was long range operations within the Pacific. Submarines weren't a weapon Hitler belived in before the war. Considering the constant German shortage of materials and no real maritim warfare tradition the real excellent boates came to late. 

The IJN didn't belive in ASW. This was something not worth wasting resources on. And it wasn't a job for a real warrior. This was also the reason why they didn't send out their subs to sink Allied freighters at the start of the Pacific war. Just not their doctrine. 

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4 minutes ago, Shinnidan said:

DAS BOAT!!!! :Smile_teethhappy: need i say more? 

The full TV version ofc. Was released also 2004 as one movie as the "Original Uncut Version" with nearly 5 hours runtime.

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1 minute ago, Erebthoron said:

The full TV version ofc. Was released also 2004 as one movie as the "Original Uncut Version" with nearly 5 hours runtime.

ja, und alles auf Deutsch...no? :Smile_teethhappy:

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1 minute ago, Shinnidan said:

ja, und alles auf Deutsch...no? :Smile_teethhappy:

Wie auch sonst. Ich schaue mir ja englische Serien auch im Original an.

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53 minutes ago, Ghost_Raven75 said:

And you know what the funniest thing about all this is?  Its a post asking for opinions.  But as soon as someone has one that isn't agreed upon they get attacked lol.  You people amuse the heck out of me.  Now back to my original post, No it was not my opinion to be honest, I'll just let you ponder that.  As I said, my true opinion is I would like to see them, however lets be real here.  It won't work just based on the mechanics alone.  SO don't get all upset now because I didn't agree with you.

Then why did you say "I never referenced my opinion at all," if you're responding to a thread that explicitly asked for your opinion, knowing full well, that you were giving your opinion?

I want to go on record: I don't have a problem with your opinion that none of them should have submarines. I was only correcting you, on your statement that you made, that stated, "I never referenced my opinion at all."

 

48 minutes ago, Xplato said:

U boats were a threat until Technology made them irrelevant. ever wonder why Germany tonnage drops off the map after 1942? Sonar says high. Radar says high, actual protected ships says high.

They were decent Subs, but in comparison were completely inferior to USN Subs.Barring the XXI. but since only 4 were really completed it's not really in the equation. Uboats were outclassed in Armament, speed, dive depths,technology. and probably the most important survivability.

but you are right they were completely outplayed. Same way the Japanese were outplayed when the USN Subs basically destroyed the entire Japanese shipping, and crippled the IJN by themselves. But American skippers had access to radar attached to their periscopes so that's no real surprise, and well the Japanese couldn't conduct ASW to save their life.

I'm sure bombing U-Boat Shipyards didn't play a role at all... It helped that the US entered the war in 1942...

U-Boats were tested at deeper depths than the USN counter-parts... so I don't know why you think the USN beats the U-Boats in dive depths... Seriously, U-Boats tested at 787ft (240m) versus USN subs tested at 300ft... so... bugger off there.

We didn't start mounting radar onto submarines, until the Japanese started their Kamikaze attacks, in which a need for long-range radar umbrella was an absolute must. Putting the radar on the ships themselves, proved too vulnerable to the attack, so they experimented with submarines, and converted 6 Gato-Class Submarines, for Radar Sweeps. Kamikaze strikes didn't start until 1944, specifically June 15th... so bugger off with the radar on submarines malarkey... That and they were used to detect aircraft, NOT submarines.

The Largest factor to the drop in U-Boats, was the increase in tonnage of shipment being carried across the Atlantic, after the US entered the war. More shipment meant more protection. More protection means less activity of submarines. We threw a lot of ships into both the Atlantic and Pacific. However, no Navy has a track record of 175 warships and 3,500 merchant vessels (found more accurate numbers), that the Germans do. SHEER NUMBERS, is what defeated the Germans, on all three counts of Air, Land and Sea. That is what happens when an Industrial Powerhouse enters a war. US went Quantity over quality, while Germans focused on Quality over Quantity.

We were only able to beat them, because of numbers, not because our submarines were better. U-Boats were practically defeated in 1943. From mid-1943 to Germany's surrender, U-Boats still managed to sink our ships. It was defeating the U-Boats, that was most important for winning the battle of the Atlantic. THAT'S how big of a threat they were. So big, that they were more important than sinking surface ships. THAT'S why they are the cream of the crop. Battle of Atlantic was a tonnage war, not a war about quality, and that's why the U-Boats eventually failed, because Germany focused too much on Quality, rather than quantity.

Edited by Counter_Gambit

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29 minutes ago, Shinnidan said:

DAS BOAT!!!! :Smile_teethhappy: need i say more? 

Das Boot* - Literal translation: This The Boat. <---whoops

Edited by Counter_Gambit
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2 minutes ago, Erebthoron said:

Wie auch sonst. Ich schaue mir ja englische Serien auch im Original an.

:Smile_amazed:ja wirklich?! gibt es eine englische version? 

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But the IJN boats have a higher surface speed (in general) and could end up having scout aircraft. You end up with sub that can spot for itself (assuming WG goes with a submerged sub being pretty much blind).

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but honestly, i want i-401!!! ^_^  so i can put Iona in as Capt...lol 

i think Germany, Japan, und US will be released together.  

Edited by Shinnidan

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3 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

Das Boot* - Literal translation: This Boat.

No. Just The Boat. We have three different genders in the German language. As for English it's in all three cases "The"

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5 minutes ago, Shinnidan said:

:Smile_amazed:ja wirklich?! gibt es eine englische version? 

I'm not completly sure but I think all releases in English were German with subtitles. 

If you ever visit Germany: at Laboe on the Baltic coast you can visit a Typ VIIc boat. And in Munich at the Bavaria Filmstudios you can see the original set from the movie. And for both cases: those subs were much smaller then they looked in the movie.

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