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kgh52

BB's pushing

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In No Zoup for You thread on subs the very 1st comment had something to say about BB hugging the back line. In my 3000+ battles I have yet to see BB's use hugging the "back line" as a tactic. I've seen players driving ships of all types dodge combat by hugging the back line, not just BB's. From what I see players are calling for BB's to rush in blindly and then complain about BB drivers being potatoes.

Yes, there are legitimate complaints about BB drivers and their play style but this can be said about all players in any class of ship. Pushing is situational and deadly when done at the wrong time. I can't count the times I've been hung out to dry by my teammate turning & running away because a couple of red team ships show up but we still had the advantage in ships and fire power.

BTW, I have driven BB's more often than all other classes of ships in randoms but that is soon to change. At this time I am spending most of my time in scenarios to honing my cruiser skills. While UF is the most difficult scenario to win it offers good training because the bots are better than almost all players if not all.

 

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Well, I must not play the same game than you. How many time did I saw some German BB snipping at near max range, or BB doing circle at 16 km of the objective? Sure, there is some that will push and support the team. But many prefer to stay in the back: you will survive longer and, if lucky with the RNG, will be able to kill a ship and gain good exp even if you were useless to the team.

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1 hour ago, kgh52 said:

In my 3000+ battles I have yet to see BB's use hugging the "back line" as a tactic.

There is a dude named Aesop, and you should send him this story; he publishes Fairy Tales!

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The backline huggers have evolved and are now hugging islands instead, so not only can the enemy not shoot at them, but they can't shoot back.

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Why shouldn't they hug the back line? A BB isn't a death star it needs close support from DD's and cruisers, something that is woefully lacking these days. On the odd occasion where support is available a concerted  push is unstoppable, but it happens rarely these days. DD's don't want to move in to screen because of radar, cruisers aren't moving in because island hugging is the new meta and that just leaves battleships who have no desire to be mega torped 

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2 minutes ago, kamelion66 said:

Why shouldn't they hug the back line? A BB isn't a death star it needs close support from DD's and cruisers, something that is woefully lacking these days. On the odd occasion where support is available a concerted  push is unstoppable, but it happens rarely these days. DD's don't want to move in to screen because of radar, cruisers aren't moving in because island hugging is the new meta and that just leaves battleships who have no desire to be mega torped 

Sounds dysfunctional. Also oversimplified. Also one-sided.

Battleships should go where they need to be to project power with their guns (NOTE: not with their faces). "Moving in" is inferior to "moving into position".

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Few realize this game is just like chess in that if you control the center of the board/map you will usually win the game. I have done this over and over in ranked on the map with the overlaying AB control points. Drive a Montana right in there and park it begging for people to push in....as they do they pay for it. I have lost a few times but many more successes because as is said people are conditioned to take up defensive positions so when you get in there you disrupt the norm and people don't know quite how to deal with it. Easy Money...what ends up happening is they have to head out for open sea which leaves them vulnerable to attack from the entire fleet.

Edited by C_D
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There's a time to push and a time to be de facto artillary.  Largely depends on what the collective team(s) is doing. 

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No one asks the BBs to be the spearhead, but sometimes when at match start I see a BB going full broadside to engage with all their guns at max range...

Of course, some BBs also move to mid range, to wait for the right time to push.

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I suspect the main issue is players not being familiar with their ships - the optimal engagement range for a Yamato is nowhere near the optimal range for a GK, for example. A lot of players err on the side of passivity simply to stay afloat longer. 

Bad aggressive players die fast, try to survive by over-correcting to passive play, and eventually might figure out how to properly pick their spots.

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2 hours ago, kgh52 said:

In No Zoup for You thread on subs the very 1st comment had something to say about BB hugging the back line. In my 3000+ battles I have yet to see BB's use hugging the "back line" as a tactic. I've seen players driving ships of all types dodge combat by hugging the back line, not just BB's. From what I see players are calling for BB's to rush in blindly and then complain about BB drivers being potatoes.

Yes, there are legitimate complaints about BB drivers and their play style but this can be said about all players in any class of ship. Pushing is situational and deadly when done at the wrong time. I can't count the times I've been hung out to dry by my teammate turning & running away because a couple of red team ships show up but we still had the advantage in ships and fire power.

BTW, I have driven BB's more often than all other classes of ships in randoms but that is soon to change. At this time I am spending most of my time in scenarios to honing my cruiser skills. While UF is the most difficult scenario to win it offers good training because the bots are better than almost all players if not all.

 

You need to start playing T9/T10.

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1 hour ago, Y_Nagato said:

Well, I must not play the same game than you. How many time did I saw some German BB snipping at near max range, or BB doing circle at 16 km of the objective? Sure, there is some that will push and support the team. But many prefer to stay in the back: you will survive longer and, if lucky with the RNG, will be able to kill a ship and gain good exp even if you were useless to the team.

Just to play devil's advocate here, I've been raged at for being what another player considered "too far away" and "camping" (despite me moving), but at a range of 8km from them, they were in a Destroyer. Moreover, I don't think people quite understand a few things.

First, pushing a the very beginning of the match in higher tiers in a BB, typically results in a quick trip back to port. 

Second, "secondaries" can reach up to 11km+ depending on the ship. That, in and of itself comes at a price, no "stealth builds" for that BB. In turn, that BB becomes a focal point for the enemy team. Which again circles back to the early push comment.

 

Bottom line is, people are going to play how they want to play, period. However, if as a Destroyer or a Cruiser one cannot grasp the concept of the long game of high tier Battleship play, then perhaps people should not just level one, but perform well in them (solo). I say solo so that people will be forced to rely on unknown teammates for help AND more importantly, get berated, hurried, pinged to death for something that they are quite aware of and already enroute to but are restricted by speed/ manueverability of the ship.

Don't take this as me defending the G.K. snipers, but there are just as many G.K. snipers as there are Shimikaze "gun boats" that refuse to spot, Gearing's that are "torp boats" and refuse to contest a cap, Cruisers that well, just do w/e...

How do I know this? Because they are the same players, all you need to do is look some people up now and again and you'll see that "x" player who plays a Montana, also play ls a Shimikaze and he averages 3.1k damage in each ship....

 

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Guess that’s were the +1 karma came from. Had a match with Zuop in a Kita earlier. Pushed behind him with my Missouri and used radar to find those who want to hide in smoke in front of us.

But yeah, it happens. Was short of extrem salty two days ago. In both matches I sailed up to the enemy with my GK, did more then 140k damage but we lost because in every match was one T10 BB that sailed at max distance and run from the enemy. Both (one a GL, the other a Yamato) were nearly undamaged at the end, were at the bottom of the exp list and could have tipped the balance for us if the just got into the fight. That Yamato even hide behind the CV the whole match.

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In my 3000+ battles I have yet to see BB's use hugging the "back line" as a tactic.

I'm presuming all your games are scenarios and co-op?

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4 minutes ago, BURN_Miner said:

Just to play devil's advocate here, I've been raged at for being what another player considered "too far away" and "camping" (despite me moving), but at a range of 8km from them, they were in a Destroyer. Moreover, I don't think people quite understand a few things.

First, pushing a the very beginning of the match in higher tiers in a BB, typically results in a quick trip back to port. 

Second, "secondaries" can reach up to 11km+ depending on the ship. That, in and of itself comes at a price, no "stealth builds" for that BB. In turn, that BB becomes a focal point for the enemy team. Which again circles back to the early push comment.

 

Bottom line is, people are going to play how they want to play, period. However, if as a Destroyer or a Cruiser one cannot grasp the concept of the long game of high tier Battleship play, then perhaps people should not just level one, but perform well in them (solo). I say solo so that people will be forced to rely on unknown teammates for help AND more importantly, get berated, hurried, pinged to death for something that they are quite aware of and already enroute to but are restricted by speed/ manueverability of the ship.

Don't take this as me defending the G.K. snipers, but there are just as many G.K. snipers as there are Shimikaze "gun boats" that refuse to spot, Gearing's that are "torp boats" and refuse to contest a cap, Cruisers that well, just do w/e...

How do I know this? Because they are the same players, all you need to do is look some people up now and again and you'll see that "x" player who plays a Montana, also play ls a Shimikaze and he averages 3.1k damage in each ship....

 

Well, I would argue that pushing at the beginning in any kind of ship is a quick trip to port. It's a case of ''high risk, high reward'': sure you may become focus and sink, but if in the end your team win it's all good. Playing conservative at max range may make you live longer, but the impact in the game will be quite smaller (again, it isn't about rushing blindly. There is way to push with a BB without becoming the target of all the red team).

 

And your example about the Shimakaze and the gearing are the same case: sure they cannot make their team win, but they stay alive and stack damage. And since this game give lots for credit/ exp for damage it becomes the individualistic way to play. You risk almost nothing but are sure to finish the game in the green, while the poor DD trying to cap at tier 10 may well finish in debt.

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4 minutes ago, evilleMonkeigh said:

I'm presuming all your games are scenarios and co-op?

Can't be.  I've seen it there too.

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26 minutes ago, MaxL_1023 said:

Bad aggressive players die fast, try to survive by over-correcting to passive play, and eventually might figure out how to properly pick their spots.

I was the opposite, and it took me a couple thousand games just to be able to say that I'm starting to get the hang of things.

Edited by Skpstr

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51 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

Sounds dysfunctional. Also oversimplified. Also one-sided.

Battleships should go where they need to be to project power with their guns (NOTE: not with their faces). "Moving in" is inferior to "moving into position".

Well that's the thing, most BB's don't know when to move into a good position at the right time.

Us 2 DDs and a worce took C at the start of the battle , our shima died so me and the worce rushed back to A to help our ZAO who was there defending the whole time while the yammy comes running across with full HP  to C and parked behind a rock with no shots, he came second from last on a win and that's only because our shima died first.

The amount of yammy's playing like DES cruisers seems to be increasing.

 

2mVE4c.png

Edited by Final8ty

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I've been playing Nassau lately, just for fun.  I've had pretty good luck being aggressive with it, often acting as the scout, since no one else wants to go forward.  It can take a beating, and you can keep your bow toward the enemy and still bring most of your main guns to bear by alternating starboard and port.  Decent secondaries, and as long as you keep your eyes open and anticipate torpedo launches, you can dodge most of them.  And once a BB leads, most of the time the team will follow.  Now, you can't do this in higher tiers, since torpedoes have greater range and speed, and you'll get burned to the waterline by cruisers spamming HE.  But at tier 3 it works.

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When a cruiser hangs out at the back line, that's irritating. Gets in the way of hunting the 3 battleships that are along with him. 

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14 minutes ago, Final8ty said:

Well that's the thing, most BB's don't know when to move into a good position at the right time.

Us 2 DDs and a worce took C at the start of the battle , our shima died so me and the worce rushed back to A to help our ZAO who was there defending the whole time while the yammy comes running across with full HP  to C and parked behind a rock with no shots, he came second from last on a win and that's only because our shima died first.

The amount of yammy's playing like DES cruisers seems to be increasing.

 

2mVE4c.png

I'm not sure what you expect the yammy to do in the above. Now this pic doesn't show health pools but assuming some of those enemy ships are healthy, what do you want?  You have two caps, and should play defensive and not try to push into B or engage the enemy.  Do you want him to push out of C so that the mino smokes up and starts eating him while the DM and Conq burn him to death? I don't blame him for hanging back in the circumstance. Let them come to you. 

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Wut? Dude. "Baddieships" are freakin notorious in their hesitation, just like poorly played DD are notorious for yoloing.

 

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2 hours ago, kgh52 said:

In No Zoup for You thread on subs the very 1st comment had something to say about BB hugging the back line. In my 3000+ battles I have yet to see BB's use hugging the "back line" as a tactic. I've seen players driving ships of all types dodge combat by hugging the back line, not just BB's. From what I see players are calling for BB's to rush in blindly and then complain about BB drivers being potatoes.

Yes, there are legitimate complaints about BB drivers and their play style but this can be said about all players in any class of ship. Pushing is situational and deadly when done at the wrong time. I can't count the times I've been hung out to dry by my teammate turning & running away because a couple of red team ships show up but we still had the advantage in ships and fire power.

BTW, I have driven BB's more often than all other classes of ships in randoms but that is soon to change. At this time I am spending most of my time in scenarios to honing my cruiser skills. While UF is the most difficult scenario to win it offers good training because the bots are better than almost all players if not all.

 

If you have never seen a BB player hug the back of the map, camp, and snipe in over 3,000 battles, then you have been very lucky or just didn't notice it because it does happen. I've seen it in Co-Op, Random and Ranked battle modes. Not all BB players do so and it doesn't happen in every battle, but it has been a type of gameplay that has been a bone of contention among the player base since day one of WoWs and has gotten worse each year. It happens frequently enough and is prolific enough for there to be numerous threads on the subject in the forums here.

49 minutes ago, kamelion66 said:

Why shouldn't they hug the back line? A BB isn't a death star it needs close support from DD's and cruisers, something that is woefully lacking these days. On the odd occasion where support is available a concerted  push is unstoppable, but it happens rarely these days. DD's don't want to move in to screen because of radar, cruisers aren't moving in because island hugging is the new meta and that just leaves battleships who have no desire to be mega torped 

 

40 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

Sounds dysfunctional. Also oversimplified. Also one-sided.

Battleships should go where they need to be to project power with their guns (NOTE: not with their faces). "Moving in" is inferior to "moving into position".

While it seems dysfunctional, it is not oversimplified or one-sided, @kamelion66 raises a valid point which too many players are too quick to dismiss.

Teamwork has been a problem in WoWs since the game dropped and has gotten worse each year it seems. It would be nice if most every game DD players and cruisers would ease back on the throttle and screen for enemy DDs and provide AA for BBs and heavy cruisers and the team would play like a well-coordinated fleet, but this level of teamwork rarely occurs in Co-Op, Random, or Ranked battle modes. While there are some BB players who will camp and snipe at maximum range regardless of whether there is teamwork or not, the lack of said cooperative team play is a big reason that many a BB commander said "F-it" and just sit in the back.

That being said in reply @Y_Nagato, I would say that there are more BB players like myself who will use our armor and HP to tank potential damage and get our guns at a range where we can do as much damage as possible than most posters give credit to that play the game. Unfortunately, the BB campers that snipe and shoot from the back of the map overshadow those BB commanders who try to push with and support their team. At the same time, I'm not going to commit virtual communal suicide with a DD or light cruiser that YOLO's and LeRoy Jenkins full speed into a domination point being capped by the enemy without the rest of the team to support. Some players seem to think that the only throttle speed is full or stop.

And speaking to that, there is a time to push and a time not to push, which is a skill that probably takes the longest to learn in a BB... IMO, especially as you advance up to the higher tiers. 

I know for me, at tier 8-10, I am just beginning to get a feel of when to push and when not to push, which is part of the reason I have put off buying a tier 9 BB even though I've had it unlocked for several months.

1 hour ago, Y_Nagato said:

Well, I must not play the same game than you. How many time did I saw some German BB snipping at near max range, or BB doing circle at 16 km of the objective? Sure, there is some that will push and support the team. But many prefer to stay in the back: you will survive longer and, if lucky with the RNG, will be able to kill a ship and gain good exp even if you were useless to the team.

 

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34 minutes ago, Slumlord_Cheeto said:

I'm not sure what you expect the yammy to do in the above. Now this pic doesn't show health pools but assuming some of those enemy ships are healthy, what do you want?  You have two caps, and should play defensive and not try to push into B or engage the enemy.  Do you want him to push out of C so that the mino smokes up and starts eating him while the DM and Conq burn him to death? I don't blame him for hanging back in the circumstance. Let them come to you. 

I want him to be where he can shoot his guns, he is of no more use than a CV with no planes.

If the rest of us doing all the work had died then yeah they would come to him, then see how useful he would be.

And to add, me and the worce chased off the mino from C, if he knew that me and the worse were going back to A he would of stayed near C and threaded single torps through the gap at the front of C.

Edited by Final8ty

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1 minute ago, daVinci761st said:

That being said in reply @Y_Nagato, I would say that there are more BB players like myself who will use our armor and HP to tank potential damage and get our guns at a range where we can do as much damage as possible than most posters give credit to that play the game. Unfortunately, the BB campers that snipe and shoot from the back of the map overshadow those BB commanders who try to push with and support their team. At the same time, I'm not going to commit virtual communal suicide with a DD or light cruiser that YOLO's and LeRoy Jenkins full speed into a domination point being capped by the enemy without the rest of the team to support. Some players seem to think that the only throttle speed is full or stop.

And speaking to that, there is a time to push and a time not to push, which is a skill that probably takes the longest to learn in a BB... IMO, especially as you advance up to the higher tiers. 

I know for me, at tier 8-10, I am just beginning to get a feel of when to push and when not to push, which is part of the reason I have put off buying a tier 9 BB even though I've had it unlocked for several months.

 

Well, the main reason why the ''back liner BB'' get attention is because they stay alive. Cruiser and DD captain, once sink, will check their teammate and nothing is more frustrating than seeing some BB on the border full health after 10 minutes. Also, rank did promote this kind of game play: BB tended to stay back in order to finish first of their team in case of a defeat. 

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