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NoZoupForYou

Subs - Why We Might Get Them in Game, and Why We Likely Won't

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1 hour ago, FirestormMk3 said:

I am looking forward to it personally.  I think it will be a good change to the meta and further discourage battleships that camp alone in the back, plus it will give destroyers and light cruisers something to eat.  I think that this is something that can be balance for this game but I hope like the carrier rework they take their time with the testing and get it right.  When I first heard about the halloween event I thought it would probably just be for that but this article seems to suggest this, like the carrier rework, isn't if, but when and in what final form.

 

https://venturebeat.com/2018/09/18/why-wargaming-is-disrupting-world-of-warships-with-submarines-and-revamped-aircraft-carriers/

So exactly how is it going to discourage battleships that camp in the back? With a slow underwater speed and a slow surface speed of 20 knots Subs are not going to be able to catch ANY battleships without spending the entire game working into a firing solution on a single ship and thereby ignoring the actual game objectives. 

In reality subs are probably going to be hovering around the caps trying to ambush ships there which will further solidify ranged stagnant game play. 

As a battleship main if there is another class of ship that I have no way to counter, I won't be pushing the caps until all the subs are dead. Until than I will be sitting at max range firing away. Not by choice but because I will be forced to in order to stay alive. I will be watching the mini map. the second a subs position gets reported I will be headed in the opposite direction in my BB. Good luck trying to catch me.

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12 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Subs aren't about lethality or danger to BBs or whatever.  The key is balance.  And not necessarily balance for the sub counter.  Subs "could" be implemented in a manner that makes them nigh worthless.  Slow.  Poor fire arcs.  Poor range.  Poor visibility.  yada yada.  Then the scream would be "subs are too week".  "Subs are too nerf'd".  "Anyone queueing with a sub is a detriment to the team".  yada yada.  If subs are implemented, they must be implemented in a manner that makes them worth the team slot.

The problem is balance.  How to make them "worth it", without making them "too good", without throwing a wrench into the current balance.  Oh...and making them "fun" in a 20 minute battle.  Balance. Fun.  It's a tall order.

Reduced speed.  Even more reduced speed underwater.  Poor firing arcs.  Limited submerge time.  All sorts of things that will nerf a sub.  So...it's not about how OP the sub will be.  It's whether or not it can be incorporated in manner that makes subs worth it to play and fun to play, while not overturning the current (somewhat precarious) apple cart.

Balance.  Playability.  Fun.  A tall order.

Actually I want to see subs implemented with 100% historical accuracy. 7-9 knot submerged speeds 20 knots surface speed, a couple of 5 inch rounds destroy them. The ultimate glass cannon. Why would I want that, just to see all the sub babies throw them selves to the ground and roll around in a temper tantrum....whaaaaa whaaaa whaaaaa....these are not the subs I wanted. It would be epic lol. 

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54 minutes ago, Komrade_Rylo said:

 

Pretty sure bbs are going to be even less likely to push if subs are in the game.

I would listen to Komrade a friend of mine told me he was the best player on the server.

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Just now, TheDreadnought said:

LOL, they're not building ACTUAL subs.  They're just paying a couple developers to work on this project for six months or so using 80% deveoped game assets.  They've spent a couple hundred thousand at most.

I think they're going to roll out a Halloween mode and see what people think.   It's quite possible that subs get confined to special modes and/or events and don't get included in the core PvP game.

I don't know, WG has been thinking about subs for a long (as per the stream).  You remember the sub they gave us you couldn't play for the April fool's event?  How much do you think that cost to model and put it in the port?  Putting together the halloween event alone costs several hundred thousand, without the development cost of the sub game play.

It would take six months to have usable game play developed after you decided on what it is you're going to move forward with.  There was at least six months before that coming up with game play concepts to pitch, test, reject, and finally decided on one that could work.  I believe WG is in deeper on this than you think. 

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I honestly believe this was needed, they needed to shift away the RPS elements of DD's vs BB's because it would never get to the proper level of balance. 

Now Destroyers will hard counter Subs, and soft counter BBs. 

I am looking forward to subs, and using my squid / hedgehog launchers and depth charges 

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7 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I don't know, WG has been thinking about subs for a long (as per the stream).  You remember the sub they gave us you couldn't play for the April fool's event?  How much do you think that cost to model and put it in the port?  Putting together the halloween event alone costs several hundred thousand, without the development cost of the sub game play.

It would take six months to have usable game play developed after you decided on what it is you're going to move forward with.  There was at least six months before that coming up with game play concepts to pitch, test, reject, and finally decided on one that could work.  I believe WG is in deeper on this than you think. 

A couple hundred thousand dollars is a lot to spend on submarines just a Halloween mode.  Maybe profit gained form the hype and Halloween crates will make up for it...  but Sasha did lay out some pretty interesting nuggets in his interview.  I see this going either way... BUT, we still need the carrier rework first.  

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8 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

  I believe WG is in deeper on this than you think. 

My only gripe about your original post was the cost estimate. You said they had spent several million already. This is Russia after all, several million could buy the country hehehehehe

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1 minute ago, Cobraclutch said:

I honestly believe this was needed, they needed to shift away the RPS elements of DD's vs BB's because it would never get to the proper level of balance. 

Now Destroyers will hard counter Subs, and soft counter BBs. 

I am looking forward to subs, and using my squid / hedgehog launchers and depth charges 

My questions include things like how would subs cap and spot...  I mean, this would make it a cluster for DDs trying to cap.  Could they even do it anymore?  Its hard with radar... imagine a sub on cap.  Though subs are so slow under water could they even get there in time?

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1 minute ago, NoZoupForYou said:

My questions include things like how would subs cap and spot...  I mean, this would make it a cluster for DDs trying to cap.  Could they even do it anymore?  Its hard with radar... imagine a sub on cap.  Though subs are so slow under water could they even get there in time?

From some of the info we saw yesterday, it looks like the speed of subs will be artificially inflated to make them more enjoyable.  And it seems in terms of spotting they will be very limited and relying on their team mates.

Nikolaev: A submarine will primarily rely on spotting and visibility provided by their teammates. Their own visibility will be very limited, though, especially if they’re submerged. They can either rely on the team, or they have to surface.

 

GamesBeat: They don’t move that fast, right?

Nikolaev: Yes. Historically, submarines, especially when submerged, were rather slow. Not super slow, but about the speed of a carrier. When surfaced a submarine will be pretty fast, though. It’ll be 20 to 25 knots when surfaced.

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2 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

From some of the info we saw yesterday, it looks like the speed of subs will be artificially inflated to make them more enjoyable.  And it seems in terms of spotting they will be very limited and relying on their team mates.

Nikolaev: A submarine will primarily rely on spotting and visibility provided by their teammates. Their own visibility will be very limited, though, especially if they’re submerged. They can either rely on the team, or they have to surface.

 

GamesBeat: They don’t move that fast, right?

Nikolaev: Yes. Historically, submarines, especially when submerged, were rather slow. Not super slow, but about the speed of a carrier. When surfaced a submarine will be pretty fast, though. It’ll be 20 to 25 knots when surfaced.

Yep...  saw that.  didn't know if he was referring to Halloween only or overall...

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3 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

From some of the info we saw yesterday, it looks like the speed of subs will be artificially inflated to make them more enjoyable.  And it seems in terms of spotting they will be very limited and relying on their team mates.

Nikolaev: A submarine will primarily rely on spotting and visibility provided by their teammates. Their own visibility will be very limited, though, especially if they’re submerged. They can either rely on the team, or they have to surface.

 

GamesBeat: They don’t move that fast, right?

Nikolaev: Yes. Historically, submarines, especially when submerged, were rather slow. Not super slow, but about the speed of a carrier. When surfaced a submarine will be pretty fast, though. It’ll be 20 to 25 knots when surfaced.

USN tier 1-7 probally will have their speed inflated for game balanced, tier 8-10 most likely won't need that treatment.

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Balao class submarines were 20 knots on the surface, 9 knots submerged.  So adding 5 knots isnt too bad of a stretch... but they also weren't that maneuverable. 

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2 hours ago, puxflacet said:

Further discourage battleships to push...a good change you say?

Not so much discourage them from pushing, but from sitting still/backing up.

Besides, I think we all know by now that there are BB players who push, and those who don't. The only players' behaviour you're going to change with incentives/disincentives are the relatively minor number of fence-sitters.

A player who hasn't been pushing isn't going to magically learn a new playstyle because it has become a bit more favorable. Same with a player who does push, they aren't going to abandon their playstyle lightly.

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2 minutes ago, UssIowaSailor said:

As a battleship main if there is another class of ship that I have no way to counter, I won't be pushing the caps until all the subs are dead. Until than I will be sitting at max range firing away. Not by choice but because I will be forced to in order to stay alive. I will be watching the mini map. the second a subs position gets reported I will be headed in the opposite direction in my BB. Good luck trying to catch me.

Don't get too worked up, you won't be defenseless against subs.  As for running away from subs as fast as you can, it'll be your funeral.  Remember that CV rework?  Yep, those CVs will eat you alive if you try to hide in the back, or run off alone.  You'll need to run with the pack for the best protection.

Just now, UssIowaSailor said:

My only gripe about your original post was the cost estimate. You said they had spent several million already. This is Russia after all, several million could buy the country hehehehehe

Well, you could be right there.  I could be way off on my estimate but I don't think so.  I think "project introduce subs" has been on going for a long time now.  Remember the CV rework was supposed to happen in 2017.  I think subs were planned for 2018 but the delay in the CV rework has the release of subs moved to (earlier in) 2019.  I think the work on subs have been going on behind the scenes as if the rework was never delayed and WG is now sitting on subs waiting until the time is right for release (after the dust settles with CV rework).      

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1 minute ago, Skpstr said:

Not so much discourage them from pushing, but from sitting still/backing up.

Besides, I think we all know by now that there are BB players who push, and those who don't. The only players' behaviour you're going to change with incentives/disincentives are the relatively minor number of fence-sitters.

A player who hasn't been pushing isn't going to magically learn a new playstyle because it has become a bit more favorable. Same with a player who does push, they aren't going to abandon their playstyle lightly.

I don't think they will dissuade good BB players form pushing.  I don't think other players will change habits regardless of subs.  You nailed it.  Old habits die hard.

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1 minute ago, Slimeball91 said:

Don't get too worked up, you won't be defenseless against subs.  As for running away from subs as fast as you can, it'll be your funeral.  Remember that CV rework?  Yep, those CVs will eat you alive if you try to hide in the back, or run off alone.  You'll need to run with the pack for the best protection.

Well, you could be right there.  I could be way off on my estimate but I don't think so.  I think "project introduce subs" has been on going for a long time now.  Remember the CV rework was supposed to happen in 2017.  I think subs were planned for 2018 but the delay in the CV rework has the release of subs moved to (earlier in) 2019.  I think the work on subs have been going on behind the scenes as if the rework was never delayed and WG is now sitting on subs waiting until the time is right for release (after the dust settles with CV rework).      

This.... we still dont know much about how subs would be employed.  If they need to surface to fire, BB secondaries will rip them.  Main guns will break them.  

I think they will become mainly high risk high reward ships.  

 

Of course this is all guessing.

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I like the art and the concept for the Halloween mode, but I do not have an interest in subs for the game. 

Besides, WG could not seem to manage the CV class very well, so why compound the issue?

 

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2 hours ago, FirestormMk3 said:

No, it will discourage camping alone in the back.  Without being near your destroyers and light cruisers and their depth charges you will just be food for submarines.

Is a submarine going <8 knots underwater is going to get back there in time to make any difference? 

Heaven help the sub going ~16 knots on the surface and trying to make it through the front and into the rear on most maps.

Take some of the small low-tier cruisers, remove all but one or two of those deck guns, strip down most of the armor, and give them a handful of bow tubes -- and make them a bit slower.  Give them super-smoke (submerging).  That's what most subs from the timeframe of this game will be.

 

Unless the way spawns are handled is completely changed, adding more invisible torpedo launchers to the battles is only going to encourage more static gameplay, more hiding, more island and map-edge humping, etc. 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

 If they need to surface to fire, BB secondaries will rip them.

The stupidity in that sentience is hilarious....

 

Why would a submersible Boat, need to surface to fire...

Jesus I think 25 of my braincells just commited sudoku just reading that.

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1 minute ago, Xplato said:

The stupidity in that sentience is hilarious....

 

Why would a submersible Boat, need to surface to fire...

Jesus I think 25 of my braincells just commited sudoku just reading that.

Maybe game mechanics?? Just a thought.

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Just now, MCBURL said:

Maybe game mechanics?? Just a thought.

No, not even game mechanics. we already know they can fire at periscope depth... to even think they would need to surface to fire with that knoweldge is a pretty moronic thing to even suggest. not to mention it would make zero sense given the technology. Subs only ever fired torps on the surface either at night, or early war period where merchant convoys were very poorly protected. they wouldn't ever intentionally surface to fire on a military warship, for obvious reasons they would be annihilated.

 

It's a mindbogglingly stupid statement.

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9 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Don't get too worked up, you won't be defenseless against subs.  As for running away from subs as fast as you can, it'll be your funeral.  Remember that CV rework?  Yep, those CVs will eat you alive if you try to hide in the back, or run off alone.  You'll need to run with the pack for the best protection.

Well, you could be right there.  I could be way off on my estimate but I don't think so.  I think "project introduce subs" has been on going for a long time now.  Remember the CV rework was supposed to happen in 2017.  I think subs were planned for 2018 but the delay in the CV rework has the release of subs moved to (earlier in) 2019.  I think the work on subs have been going on behind the scenes as if the rework was never delayed and WG is now sitting on subs waiting until the time is right for release (after the dust settles with CV rework).      

I think with the carrier rework you will see battleships bunching up to maximize AA. What concerns me most is if the carrier rework makes sitting out of range of the machine gun HE spam cruisers suicide so battleships have to move within range of the machine gun cruisers. That will be suicide as well. I do believe Wargaming is trying to get rid of Battleships at high tier and turn the game into a much faster paced and much shorter game. I don't know if this is a response to WarThunders Naval combat beta, the battles over there are pure quick twitch blink and your dead type of game. Even the Destroyers can kill each other in 3 or 4 salvos. 

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Guess my thought was if they implement limited oxygen and the player was running out and had to surface or sink. Anyway, I'm looking forward to tinkering with them during the Halloween Event.

Almost lunch time, see you in game.   :Smile_glasses:

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53 minutes ago, UssIowaSailor said:

So exactly how is it going to discourage battleships that camp in the back? With a slow underwater speed and a slow surface speed of 20 knots Subs are not going to be able to catch ANY battleships without spending the entire game working into a firing solution on a single ship and thereby ignoring the actual game objectives. 

I would agree, except I don't know where the subs will spawn. For all we know, they could end up spawning mid map, (N/S wise) giving them an appreciable head start.

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In reality subs are probably going to be hovering around the caps trying to ambush ships there which will further solidify ranged stagnant game play. 

Can it be further solidified? I already see most ships pulling 180s if smoke appears in a cap. 

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As a battleship main if there is another class of ship that I have no way to counter, I won't be pushing the caps until all the subs are dead.

You're one of the few fence sitters then. Most will continue not to push caps, or continue to do so, and rage at subs and DDs. (or div with DDs)

Quote

 

Until than I will be sitting at max range firing away. Not by choice but because I will be forced to in order to stay alive. I will be watching the mini map. the second a subs position gets reported I will be headed in the opposite direction in my BB. Good luck trying to catch me.

That sounds petulant, and not what a player of your calibre will do at all.

You'll plan around sightings just like you do when anything else is spotted. You'll analyse the threat level, and act accordingly, while being as effective as possible.

If a sub is spotted on the other side of the map, you'll estimate how long it will take to get within firing range of where you plan to be at the time, and if it can't get to you in a reasonable amount of time, you'll de-prioritise it and carry on.

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I think the addition of subs is great. It will create more interesting gameplay. DD's and Cl's/Ca's will get an extra role in hunting these subs and subs will be able to cap as well taking part of that role from DD's. Another interesting point subs will bring is the fact that CA's and BB's will be more vulnerable, especially when they camp behind islands.

But all depends on how WG balances this. Subs could be a great thing, they could also break the game depending on balance.

I don't think dismissing subs just because you don't like them is a good thing. It's the same with CV's already. People seem to hate them. I love them to be honest. Lets see how WG implements these subs and then we can talk about it. Currently everyone is just speculating.

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