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NoZoupForYou

Subs - Why We Might Get Them in Game, and Why We Likely Won't

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People are going nuts about the Halloween addition of submarines.  Maybe we are reading into it too much, maybe not.  I think it is definitely a test bed.  Sasha (WG NA) in an interview with gamesbeat said that player feedback will be very important and they are running out of content.  I still think there are huge development hurdles including submarines, and there use in warfare is not really conducive to warships.  Slow, vulnerable and limited.  Every map would need an underwater rework and we don't even have the carrier rework yet.

Do you even want submarines in game?

 

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I am looking forward to it personally.  I think it will be a good change to the meta and further discourage battleships that camp alone in the back, plus it will give destroyers and light cruisers something to eat.  I think that this is something that can be balance for this game but I hope like the carrier rework they take their time with the testing and get it right.  When I first heard about the halloween event I thought it would probably just be for that but this article seems to suggest this, like the carrier rework, isn't if, but when and in what final form.

 

https://venturebeat.com/2018/09/18/why-wargaming-is-disrupting-world-of-warships-with-submarines-and-revamped-aircraft-carriers/

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3 minutes ago, FirestormMk3 said:

I think it will be a good change to the meta and further discourage battleships that camp alone in the back

Further discourage battleships to push...a good change you say?

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I would welcome them and play them, but its either make or break. Wg screws this one up and bad things will happen.

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13 minutes ago, puxflacet said:

Further discourage battleships to push...a good change you say?

No, it will discourage camping alone in the back.  Without being near your destroyers and light cruisers and their depth charges you will just be food for submarines.

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This is going to be a disaster if they add them.  DD's are usually the first spotted and the first ones shot at. If you kill the other teams DD's and you have a sub, guess what, you now have an invincible undetectable vessel. I'm going to wait and see how they will overcome THAT... 

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It will be a separate game mode like the bath tub boats would be my estimate

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19 minutes ago, puxflacet said:

Further discourage battleships to push...a good change you say?

A completely irrelevant argument at this point. There is nothing that is going to compel BBs to push when you give them fantastic accuracy from long range, the best tank ability, and healing. Each and every crumb of the ships capability can be abused from long range and always will be until you make hit rates from long range next to nil. The days of BB players stranglehold on the development of the game is coming to an end and it has been needed for a very long time. Subs are coming. End of discussion.

Edited by _Caliph_
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31 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Every map would need an underwater rework and we don't even have the carrier rework yet.

devs have already stated, underwater content already exists and is modelled. sure map adjustements will need to be made, but i doubt that would be terribly difficult.

They have also been quite clear, CV rework comes first, submarines later (2019/20)

Once more, misleading commentary Nozoup, from a community "influencer". 

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1 minute ago, Sampsonite said:

This is going to be a disaster if they add them.  DD's are usually the first spotted and the first ones shot at. If you kill the other teams DD's and you have a sub, guess what, you now have an invincible undetectable vessel. I'm going to wait and see how they will overcome THAT... 

They've already said subs will have reduced vision and be dependent on what other ships see, so they won't take a destroyers spotting role.  Furthermore light cruisers and other vessels with hydro will probably be best at finding them.  Finally they can only stay submerged for short durations at a time.  I'd suggest we actually wait until they are at least in the testing phase before we start trying to draw such conclusions on how they work.

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Zoup, brings up a good point, the current maps would have to be "tweeked" to support underwater and 3D? mechanics. As for game play, take into consideration the max speed of a sub and the range of torps, the sub skipper is going to have to spend time deciding on a path to the battle and this make take some time.

Lots of "what if" scenarios.

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Just now, MCBURL said:

Zoup, brings up a good point, the current maps would have to be "tweeked" to support underwater and 3D? mechanics. As for game play, take into consideration the max speed of a sub and the range of torps, the sub skipper is going to have to spend time deciding on a path to the battle and this make take some time.

Lots of "what if" scenarios.

No, Nozoup is talking nonsense, devs have been quite clear, 3d underwater modelling (terrain included) already exists.

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47 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Do you even want submarines in game?

I want them in PvE first, for several patches at least; or if PvP, in their own little mode a la Arms Race where players can take or leave them as they wish. 

I don't want them in general PvP at all until a mode-restricted implementation has been in game for a while, and balance changes can be based on large-scale experience with the general player base. Alpha and Beta testing and PTS attract too limited, and possibly too unrepresentative, a sample of the WOWS population for testing of such a major change to be reliable. Everyone has to be given the option to give it a no-obligation try-out.

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Just keep them in a separate game mode and/or Operation, and I have no problem with them.  Successfully implementing them into current PvP/Competitive game mechanics would be monumental in terms of balancing.  I think the scale leans on the side of small possible upside/large possible downside.

Edited by Ace_04

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Thanks, @nozoupforyou_ , for being the Voice of Reason.

Neptune only knows where we're headed what with all this submarine, CV, and outer space stuff.

If this turns out to be the Charlie Foxtrot it's shaping up to be, I won't be around to survey the damage. I have USS Cowell (DD-547) sitting in another port already.

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1 hour ago, FirestormMk3 said:

I am looking forward to it personally.  I think it will be a good change to the meta and further discourage battleships that camp alone in the back, plus it will give destroyers and light cruisers something to eat.  I think that this is something that can be balance for this game but I hope like the carrier rework they take their time with the testing and get it right.  When I first heard about the halloween event I thought it would probably just be for that but this article seems to suggest this, like the carrier rework, isn't if, but when and in what final form.

 

https://venturebeat.com/2018/09/18/why-wargaming-is-disrupting-world-of-warships-with-submarines-and-revamped-aircraft-carriers/

 

Pretty sure bbs are going to be even less likely to push if subs are in the game.

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A little bit of tough love for all the nay sayers.  Subs are coming unless there is a mass exodus specifically because of subs (and there won't be).  The way WG is going about the slow introduction is stacking the deck in their favor.  The halloween event will be made fun and that will give people a very good first impression on subs.  I wouldn't be surprised if the next phase will be another PvE op, this time you'll hunt subs.  Again, WG will make this op fun.  Overall people will get the impression that subs will be a good addition to the game. 

There is no need to panic, WG will balance subs, you don't have to worry about that.  You don't have to worry about subs being a big disruption to the game as we know it now.  They aren't likely to be able to nuke BBs with their one or two single fired torps with a very limited firing arc.  You won't have to worry about losing your DDs and not being able to counter subs because cruisers will be just as capable and so will CVs.  You won't have to worry about subs being wildly popular and flooding the games with 5 subs per team.  The relatively slow pace of sub game play will mean not everyone will be attracted to that style of play.

I'm guessing subs are a lot farther along WG is letting on.  They've probably invested several million dollars already on the development, and they aren't going to just let that money be wasted.  Subs are coming, you should probably get used to the idea.  Personally, I'm looking forward to them. 

Edited by Slimeball91
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Just now, Komrade_Rylo said:

 

Pretty sure bbs are going to be even less likely to push if subs are in the game.

Then they will be food.  If they don't have an escort from something with actual anti-submarine capabilities they will be defenseless.  Battleships that push with their cruisers though will have an ally to help deal with subs.

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34 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

No, Nozoup is talking nonsense, devs have been quite clear, 3d underwater modelling (terrain included) already exists.

This makes sense, probably why we have seen a lot of map reworks in the last few patches.  And this will probably continue if they ultimately go forward with this new addition to the game.

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Just now, HayabusaZ said:

This makes sense, probably why we have seen a lot of map reworks in the last few patches.  And this will probably continue if they ultimately go forward with this new addition to the game.

Good point on the maps.  I wouldn't be surprised if these changes were in part for the future inclusion of subs.  #SubsAreComing :Smile_hiding:

Edited by Slimeball91

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1 hour ago, puxflacet said:

Further discourage battleships to push...a good change you say?

My thoughts exactly.

57 minutes ago, _Caliph_ said:

A completely irrelevant argument at this point. There is nothing that is going to compel BBs to push when you give them fantastic accuracy from long range, the best tank ability, and healing. Each and every crumb of the ships capability can be abused from long range and always will be until you make hit rates from long range next to nil. The days of BB players stranglehold on the development of the game is coming to an end and it has been needed for a very long time. Subs are coming. End of discussion.

u wut mate? you mean like cruisers that have better concealment, speed, agility, accuracy, heal at 9/10 some even at 8, carry the best consumable in the game (radar), higher dpm, need i go on? BB's camping in the back is the symptom not the problem, if you don't understand this then you have no idea about the current radar / he spam meta.

16 minutes ago, FirestormMk3 said:

Then they will be food.  If they don't have an escort from something with actual anti-submarine capabilities they will be defenseless.  Battleships that push with their cruisers though will have an ally to help deal with subs.

Right....up until the point the friendly cruisers come under fire, then they bail, then the dds come under fire, they bail, now I'm stuck in the open getting torped / he spammed to death, no thanks. I'll take my chances with a slow AF sub any day.

 

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Zoup severely underestimates the ease of using procedural terrain generation.  The only parts of the maps that have to look interesting and be carefully conducted as gameplay spaces already do.  They can coat every map in "basic underwater hills" in minutes after settling on terrain features.  You just tweak a few areas after to add some visual flare.

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29 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I'm guessing subs are a lot farther along WG is letting on.  They've probably invested several million dollars already on the development, and they aren't going to just let that money be wasted.  Subs are coming, you should probably get used to the idea.  Personally, I'm looking forward to them. 

LOL, they're not building ACTUAL subs.  They're just paying a couple developers to work on this project for six months or so using 80% deveoped game assets.  They've spent a couple hundred thousand at most.

I think they're going to roll out a Halloween mode and see what people think.   It's quite possible that subs get confined to special modes and/or events and don't get included in the core PvP game.

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2 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

LOL, they're not building ACTUAL subs.  They're just paying a couple developers to work on this project for six months or so using 80% deveoped game assets.  They've spent a couple hundred thousand at most.

I think they're going to roll out a Halloween mode and see what people think.   It's quite possible that subs get confined to special modes and/or events and don't get included in the core PvP game.

I'd be really surprised if this isn't the case, it makes the most sense to roll this out in waves, allowing feedback and time for the player base to become familiar with the new concepts.  Then again this is WOWS we are talking about.  :Smile_sceptic:

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Subs aren't about lethality or danger to BBs or whatever.  The key is balance.  And not necessarily balance for the sub counter.  Subs "could" be implemented in a manner that makes them nigh worthless.  Slow.  Poor fire arcs.  Poor range.  Poor visibility.  yada yada.  Then the scream would be "subs are too week".  "Subs are too nerf'd".  "Anyone queueing with a sub is a detriment to the team".  yada yada.  If subs are implemented, they must be implemented in a manner that makes them worth the team slot.

The problem is balance.  How to make them "worth it", without making them "too good", without throwing a wrench into the current balance.  Oh...and making them "fun" in a 20 minute battle.  Balance. Fun.  It's a tall order.

Reduced speed.  Even more reduced speed underwater.  Poor firing arcs.  Limited submerge time.  All sorts of things that will nerf a sub.  So...it's not about how OP the sub will be.  It's whether or not it can be incorporated in manner that makes subs worth it to play and fun to play, while not overturning the current (somewhat precarious) apple cart.

Balance.  Playability.  Fun.  A tall order.

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