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Judadiao

Correct way of close combat against DM in Conqueror?

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So I ran into a close combat with a Des Moines in my Conqueror. We were about 6km and bow on each other. I loaded AP (419mm) because it can overmatch DM 27mm bow armor but it really disappointed me. The DM tried to reverse and he overturned a bit giving me about 45 angle. I turned a bit to shoot all turrets at his side armor. No citadels but many ricochets. Next round he was perfect bow on and I shot into his bow. Lucky 10k but still no citadel. The DM downed to 10k hp. I am afraid of giving too much broad side to the heavy US AP so I reversed into bow on position. I expected that one or two salvo could easily finish him. However, the next round only 1 hit some 2k; next round no hit. At that time the DM decided to speed up and ram me. I fired my last salvo, some 4k or 5k. The DM was still alive and rammed me.

My question is, in such situation, should I charge in or reverse? Should I keep bow on or an angle to fire all turrets? Can 419mm RN AP citadel DM from the bow? If I had got even one citadel in the three salvo I would've killed the DM before he rammed me. When I was in my DM, I had ton of experience eating citadels from BB AP into my bow, even from 18km away. While I cannot citadel him in 5km. Feel so bad.

I am pretty sure if I was in Monty or Yamato the first salvo to the 45 degree angled DM would have killed him already.

Edited by Judadiao

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55 minutes ago, Judadiao said:

When I was in my DM, I had ton of experience eating citadels from BB AP into my bow, even from 18km away. While I cannot citadel him in 5km.

I do believe it is actually easier to citadel from range due to the plunging arc of shells from a distance as opposed to the straight on arc of shells that results from closer range...the plunging shells drop down on the thinner deck armor whereas the closer shells are deflected off the thicker bow armor.

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You never mentioned how much hp you had but generally I would have gone for using all your guns. Your issue was a mix of bad luck/just not being able use all your guns to make up for RNG. Also given that you bounced of his side, I suspect it looked like 45 from wherever your pov was but wasn't 45 for your back turrets. Hard to say without a picture.

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He probably wanted to bait you into shooting his belt armor, which at sufficient angles can bounce Yamato shells. If you do need to shoot midships in that situation aim higher for the softer upper belt armor.

You can citadel the DM through the nose, though the shorter RN fuse can make it harder.

As for unmasking your rear turrets I'm afraid it is all context, do you have the HP? Do you have support? Does he have support?

As far charging in vs reversing that depends on how you think he will respond, if you think a ram will be attempted do not charge, slow/reverse or if you can afford it do a U turn and kite, it can be worth a short exposure of broadside if it allows you to live.

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Reasons I don't trust overmatch mechanics unless it's areal light cruiser. The 419 mm guns have a 7200 damage HE shell with 48% fire chance, that regardless of angle as long as the target has less than 104.25 mm of armour where it gets hit, auto pens the target. That's over 2000 damage per hit, 1000 on saturated areas if I recall. Even if a round doesn't pen, a good chance it starts fires. 6 full hits at 2k basically gets you your 1 citadel hit. Less if you hit a spot that HE can pen the citadel. Not to mention the blast radius which can knock out steering or propulsion, preventing a ram, and damage secondary guns and the turrets, and even the HP pool that leads to detonation. 

Sometimes it's about several decent hits, not just one or two amazing ones. Ask the Myoko that reported me in either Hood or KGV because at 3 km with him spotted on the other side I hit pretty much every HE round into his side as he came around the island and took away all the health he had, with was pretty significant still.

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A DM is pretty incapable of citadeling a conqueror at any angle, especially at extremely close range. It might be theoretically possible if he can get through your bow using those improved angles, but even then you have an underwater citadel that shells will most likely just pass over without entering. Your real fear should be exposing the flat of your upper hull and your superstructure. At close range, a DM can easily do 10k damage per AP salvo to those parts, and with a bit of adrenaline rush those salvos are gonna be coming every 4 seconds. This is rarely enough to kill a BB who has most of his health, especially one with a zombie heal like the conqueror, but it can make dealing with him very expensive, as losing that much health will likely cramp your play for the rest of the match. Still, unmasking your rear turrets is generally a good idea, as long as you don't remain broadside long enough for him to get more than one or two AP volleys off. As long as the DM feels forced by your angling to continue using HE, the damage he will inflict on you will be manageable and repairable.

As for where to shoot, that is very context dependent. With all your guns in action you can definitely just pen damage him to death through the bow. If you're close enough you can also try smashing some of his turrets, since these are his only source of damaging you. However, if all you want is to kill the DM as quickly as possible, my advice would be to push forward either until he is forced to show you broadside, or until your teammates start getting shots around the other side of the island. DMs live their lives in the little triangle that is the shell shadow of an island. By pushing forward (although not necessarily towards the DM), you reduce the size of that triangle, progressively making his life harder and making it more likely that he screws up at some point.

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4 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

I do believe it is actually easier to citadel from range due to the plunging arc of shells from a distance as opposed to the straight on arc of shells that results from closer range...the plunging shells drop down on the thinner deck armor whereas the closer shells are deflected off the thicker bow armor.

Yes, I guess it is the reason (I assuming you were talking about citadel armor coz DM deck armor is 30mm which is thicker than its bow armor 27mm. I will check the citadel armor in game). Still at 6km and based on overmatch mechanic other BBs can citadel DM through the bow while Conqueror AP stuggles and only gets normal pens. It is very disappointing.

2 hours ago, Reaperfang said:

You never mentioned how much hp you had but generally I would have gone for using all your guns. Your issue was a mix of bad luck/just not being able use all your guns to make up for RNG. Also given that you bounced of his side, I suspect it looked like 45 from wherever your pov was but wasn't 45 for your back turrets. Hard to say without a picture.

I was pretty good maybe 50k IIRC. Maybe shooting all guns will kill the DM faster by trading more hp, therefore avoid the ramming. Probabaly...just could not think of so much in that short time.

1 hour ago, Meatshield_No13 said:

He probably wanted to bait you into shooting his belt armor, which at sufficient angles can bounce Yamato shells. If you do need to shoot midships in that situation aim higher for the softer upper belt armor.

You can citadel the DM through the nose, though the shorter RN fuse can make it harder.

As for unmasking your rear turrets I'm afraid it is all context, do you have the HP? Do you have support? Does he have support?

As far charging in vs reversing that depends on how you think he will respond, if you think a ram will be attempted do not charge, slow/reverse or if you can afford it do a U turn and kite, it can be worth a short exposure of broadside if it allows you to live.

I now think that if it is not perfect broadside I will never shoot waterline at DM. Aiming higher and getting enough overpens is much better than ricochets. There were 2 BBs in front of me from over 15km away so I dare not turn away. My original plan was kill the DM in 2 or 3 salvo and then I can get unspotted. However, it turned out I failed to sink the DM before he rammed into me.

45 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

Reasons I don't trust overmatch mechanics unless it's areal light cruiser. The 419 mm guns have a 7200 damage HE shell with 48% fire chance, that regardless of angle as long as the target has less than 104.25 mm of armour where it gets hit, auto pens the target. That's over 2000 damage per hit, 1000 on saturated areas if I recall. Even if a round doesn't pen, a good chance it starts fires. 6 full hits at 2k basically gets you your 1 citadel hit. Less if you hit a spot that HE can pen the citadel. Not to mention the blast radius which can knock out steering or propulsion, preventing a ram, and damage secondary guns and the turrets, and even the HP pool that leads to detonation. 

Sometimes it's about several decent hits, not just one or two amazing ones. Ask the Myoko that reported me in either Hood or KGV because at 3 km with him spotted on the other side I hit pretty much every HE round into his side as he came around the island and took away all the health he had, with was pretty significant still.

It is what I was thinking after the game. Should I switch to HE? If I cannot get citadel, HE may kill the DM faster.

35 minutes ago, senseNOTmade said:

A DM is pretty incapable of citadeling a conqueror at any angle, especially at extremely close range. It might be theoretically possible if he can get through your bow using those improved angles, but even then you have an underwater citadel that shells will most likely just pass over without entering. Your real fear should be exposing the flat of your upper hull and your superstructure. At close range, a DM can easily do 10k damage per AP salvo to those parts, and with a bit of adrenaline rush those salvos are gonna be coming every 4 seconds. This is rarely enough to kill a BB who has most of his health, especially one with a zombie heal like the conqueror, but it can make dealing with him very expensive, as losing that much health will likely cramp your play for the rest of the match. Still, unmasking your rear turrets is generally a good idea, as long as you don't remain broadside long enough for him to get more than one or two AP volleys off. As long as the DM feels forced by your angling to continue using HE, the damage he will inflict on you will be manageable and repairable.

As for where to shoot, that is very context dependent. With all your guns in action you can definitely just pen damage him to death through the bow. If you're close enough you can also try smashing some of his turrets, since these are his only source of damaging you. However, if all you want is to kill the DM as quickly as possible, my advice would be to push forward either until he is forced to show you broadside, or until your teammates start getting shots around the other side of the island. DMs live their lives in the little triangle that is the shell shadow of an island. By pushing forward (although not necessarily towards the DM), you reduce the size of that triangle, progressively making his life harder and making it more likely that he screws up at some point.

DM can never citadel Conqueror in any angle I believe. I know he cannot deal much damage to me if I keep bow on, but If I show too much side he can do massive normal pen damage to me. I was afraid if I bring all turrets to fire this could happen. On the other hand, firing all turrets could helped me kill him faster so that he would not stand a chance ramming me. It was a dilemma.

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14 minutes ago, Judadiao said:

t is what I was thinking after the game. Should I switch to HE? If I cannot get citadel, HE may kill the DM faster.

Depends on the situation. HE should not be the default answer, part of my issue right now with IFHE rapid fire ships, lesser extent something like Conq mainly cause the lower RoF and accuracy usually not an issue. There may be scenarios where it's better to stick with AP. Unlike some players that will tell you "AP24/74life" as a BB - HE is a tool to be used. Scharnhorst making an obvious torp charge, HE to try and knock out his torp tubes. Spotted DD, fire the AP if you got it but if you might get another shot HE will do more damage than an overpenning AP hit. That UK or USN CL got so close AP rounds sail through the citadel for minimum damage - HE won't punch through the entire ship, best case scenario you have enough pen you citadel with HE, worst case, likely just regular pens or module destruction. 

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15 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

Depends on the situation. HE should not be the default answer, part of my issue right now with IFHE rapid fire ships, lesser extent something like Conq mainly cause the lower RoF and accuracy usually not an issue. There may be scenarios where it's better to stick with AP. Unlike some players that will tell you "AP24/74life" as a BB - HE is a tool to be used. Scharnhorst making an obvious torp charge, HE to try and knock out his torp tubes. Spotted DD, fire the AP if you got it but if you might get another shot HE will do more damage than an overpenning AP hit. That UK or USN CL got so close AP rounds sail through the citadel for minimum damage - HE won't punch through the entire ship, best case scenario you have enough pen you citadel with HE, worst case, likely just regular pens or module destruction. 

I agree. AP is much like gambling while HE is more consistant. You shoot AP expecting a DS or citadels to cripple the target but if the game does not favor you, you got overpens with little damage. Sometimes it is really hard for me to choose between AP and HE. RNG comes into effective for the result as well.

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I did the same thing in Tirpitz a while back. I'd never ever brawled against a DM before. DM hiding behind an island unspotted, next thing he pops up. He was bow on to me, I was broadside. I think I managed to fire 3 salvos at his bow. I'd say all but one shell bounced each time whilst he was going in reverse, at the same time his rate of fire was melting me.

Didn't help that I potatoed my torps and he went between the torp spread.

Actually surprised me how much they can tank at close range when played well. I gotta say, that was actually the toughest brawl I've been in as silly as that sounds. It was only a DM after all.

I've brawled many BBs, 1v1, 2v1 and for the most part I live through it. You get so much breathing room BB vs. BB because of our slow reloads. You stay angled and wait for them to fire, bounce incoming then bring guns to bear and do huge damage. The ROF I couldn't compete with, 4-5 salvos to my single. As soon as I showed him any angle he switched back to AP.  He played well, who ever it was that day.

Got to be careful in RN BBs, HE really will just eat you up.

Different story at 10-15km though. You can wipe 3/4 of their health off. Easy citadels.

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If you for some reason have your Conqueror in a brawl / knife fight scenario with a DM, do not close range.  Separate if at all possible.

 

DM is my favorite Tier X Cruiser.  A BB getting into short ranges with me opens up aggressive options to use.  Against a Conqueror, I'd ideally angle and charge.  The point is to get to Conqueror's flanks in short range where BBs tend to handle like sh*t, and then switch to AP and obliterate the BB, all while the turrets struggle to track me.  Sitting in a "shell trading" scenario with Conqueror, even with DM's rate of fire, is a fight I will eventually lose.  If the Conqueror player isn't stupid and is bow on or angled against my DM, then I am forced to use HE + Fires, and Conqueror shrugs off that kind of attack long enough that their guns obliterate me.  Conqueror will win that attrition fight due to her Super Repair Party and that RNG will eventually bless that BB salvo.  The DM player is going to get super aggressive if it has no cover to retreat behind.  Just as a Hindenburg will try to desperately charge you to drop torps, DM will try the same to put AP into your sides.  If DM gets to a BB's sides like that, I am warning you, the damage DM will do is absolutely insane.  She'll rack up massive AP damage and the 5.5 second base reload makes this dangerous.  Add in if the DM user slotted MBM3 and has AR kicking in, Des Memes will wreck any BB quickly if she gets to the flanks like that.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Hey

The Conqueror is garbage at brawling anything; you will lose to that DM everytime; very disappointed to went down the RN BB line.  Just don't find them to be all that strong (although I do like my Nelson) and with the Conqueror, I tent to take damage and it seems I never live long enough to use my last heal charge.  The guns are woefully inaccurate at dealing any real damage (unless full broadside and then good luck RNG) and the HE doesn't even set that many fires considering the high percentage fire chance (with flags even).  Just a disappointment for me; much prefer the Republique or better yet my GK.

I remember my first experience with fighting a Conqueror with my Hindy; he tried everything to kill me, I rushed hi stayed angled and kept pumping AP into him and darn  near killed him from full health, was going to torp him but someone else got an easy kill secure.  That was back before it got nerf'd.  I don't fear a Conqueror when I see them, avoid their shells since most just stay at the rear of the map and rarely push in, get to their flank and AP them the to death.

 

Pete

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Don't aim at the belt armor of a sharply angled heavy cruiser. You'll likely bounce or shatter everything. Instead, aim low at the bow.

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On 11/20/2018 at 1:51 PM, KaptainKaybe said:

Don't aim at the belt armor of a sharply angled heavy cruiser. You'll likely bounce or shatter everything. Instead, aim low at the bow.

Overmatch FTW.

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Here's my take:

  1. If the DM is low on HP, and you've got time/HP, then do it safely:  HE him to death while bow-on. Should take 2 salvos or so.
  2. If you're not critically low on HP, and need him gone NOW, then turn enough to unmask the rear turrets, and AP straight through the bow.
  3. If he's got a good amount of HP left, and you're afraid of losing too much in an extended fight, then do this:  HE him with the first salvo. Reload with AP. He'll then reveal if he's bow-tanking or willing to engage in a running fight.  If the former, do #2 until he's dead.  If the latter, switch back to HE. Rinse, repeat.

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