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Ramsalot

Just noticed an interesting thing about Conqueror turrets

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Played bunch of Conqueror games recently, along side with other T10 BBs.  I noticed Conqueror turrets get knocked out much more often than turrets on other BBs, and that's with Main Armaments Modification 1 and Preventative Maintenance.  So I checked the armor profile, and:

  • 419mm setup with 12 rifles has 381mm face, 254mm cheeks with 152mm roof with 178mm back and sides.
  • 457mm setup with 8 rifles has 456mm face, 305mm cheeks with 254/229mm roof and  229mm sides with 305mm back.

I tried using 457mm turrets, and they do feel much more robust, did not do any number crunching for the difference in DPM in randoms.  Was it always like that, or the armor was nerfed on stock turrets?

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12 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

Played bunch of Conqueror games recently, along side with other T10 BBs.  I noticed Conqueror turrets get knocked out much more often than turrets on other BBs, and that's with Main Armaments Modification 1 and Preventative Maintenance.  So I checked the armor profile, and:

  • 419mm setup with 12 rifles has 381mm face, 254mm cheeks with 152mm roof with 178mm back and sides.
  • 457mm setup with 8 rifles has 456mm face, 305mm cheeks with 254/229mm roof and  229mm sides with 305mm back.

I tried using 457mm turrets, and they do feel much more robust, did not do any number crunching for the difference in DPM in randoms.  Was it always like that, or the armor was nerfed on stock turrets?

Not sure but consensus still recommends using stock guns.

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12 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

Was it always like that, or the armor was nerfed on stock turrets?

It was always like that.

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Always been like that with the 419s, they’re prone to incaps when things get up close. They’re also vertical rather than sloped on the faces making them more prone to KO’s again.

Another reason to avoid close in fights. It’s a factor often overlooked when people discuss RN BBs, granted it is minor but RN BBs get their turrets knocked easily compared to other factions. 

The extra durability on the 457’s is nice but in no way makes up for all the other things you lose. I can posture to avoid close in fights and preserve my turrets, and I will happily take the odd random incap because of all the other benefits the 419’s bring over the 457’s.

I have tried to make the 457’s work, but even from a position of someone who will regularly employ AP they just do not have anything notable to offset the loss of barrel numbers.

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6 minutes ago, Meatshield_No13 said:

The extra durability on the 457’s is nice but in no way makes up for all the other things you lose. I can posture to avoid close in fights and preserve my turrets, and I will happily take the odd random incap because of all the other benefits the 419’s bring over the 457’s.

I have tried to make the 457’s work, but even from a position of someone who will regularly employ AP they just do not have anything notable to offset the loss of barrel numbers.

My own observations mirror this assessment.  On another note, I am finding BBs like Yamato (with legendary) and Republique much more effective in nuke em dead role than Conqueror with 12 rifle Zao setup.

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Oh, is this why the Conquerors in-game are so standoffish until the red BBs fall? Valid reason then. I'll remember be a mid-range HE/AP sniper when reach my Conk.

Must admit, this is a good weakness to the insane stealth build.

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5 minutes ago, Reymu said:

Oh, is this why the Conquerors in-game are so standoffish until the red BBs fall? Valid reason then. I'll remember be a mid-range HE/AP sniper when reach my Conk.

Must admit, this is a good weakness to the insane stealth build.

Yes, its not so bad when you face it off with 1 other BB, but if you are under barrage of fire (Worcester or Minotaur) from multiple vectors your turrets will keep shutting down faster than you can bring them online.  

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3 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

My own observations mirror this assessment.  On another note, I am finding BBs like Yamato (with legendary) and Republique much more effective in nuke em dead role than Conqueror with 12 rifle Zao setup.

Depends on what you are nuking I guess. 

I can nuke DDs with either HE or AP though that usually requires the DD screwing up. 

Cruisers get blapped easily with AP still so I can’t really call a difference there. 

Enemy BBs, yeah I can acknowledge the difference here, it’s easier to absolutely 1 salvo crush with other BBs, but I find the Conq has superior options to maintain a good consistent baseline. I suppose you could describe something like the Yamato as a series of peaks and valleys in terms of output. Whereas a Conq is more akin to a flatter plain with the odd variance up and down. So in a short span the Yamato can dramatically spike, but take it over 10mins and they’re probably achieving similar numbers, they just reach it differently. Of course I am speaking very generally here.

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3 minutes ago, Meatshield_No13 said:

Enemy BBs, yeah I can acknowledge the difference here, it’s easier to absolutely 1 salvo crush with other BBs, but I find the Conq has superior options to maintain a good consistent baseline. I suppose you could describe something like the Yamato as a series of peaks and valleys in terms of output. Whereas a Conq is more akin to a flatter plain with the odd variance up and down. So in a short span the Yamato can dramatically spike, but take it over 10mins and they’re probably achieving similar numbers, they just reach it differently. Of course I am speaking very generally here.

Things have changed for Conq.  Fires burn less on non-BB, most BB captains will sport FP skill now, Montana and Hinden with legendary upgrades negate your fire damage even more, you have to compete with the likes of Worcester and Harugumo for bonefire spots, and what's making things even worse is that most of your fire damage is repairable.  Whereas good volley with Yamato leaves a lasting impression for the rest of the game.

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its not just the conq that has this weakness.  I remember quite a few times around RN BB release where they would get close to brawl, and i would shoot their turrets knocking them all out without much trouble.  They aren't that well angled from what i seen.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

no one is going to mention the 30mm overmatch on the 457s????

is that really worth losing 4 guns over?  You can already overmatch the important 27mm mark on a lot of cruisers have on their bows.  Generally in this game, the more guns the better.  Reduces the impact of poor dispersion.  plus more shells in the air to set fire, or get cits. 

 

IF it could over match 32mm like the Yammy, then they would be worth getting imo.

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13 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

no one is going to mention the 30mm overmatch on the 457s????

30mm overmatch is nice. But the simple truth is 32mm overmatch is the one that makes people notice. 

419 defeats 27mm, so you are covered vs Cruisers bow and stern. 30mm off the top of my head is what the Zao upper belt armor? The simple fact is 30mm overmatch means very little vs 32mm overmatch. 32mm equals BB bow and stern, that’s significant, just look at Yamato as to why. But the divide between 27mm overmatch and 30mm overmatch simply doesn’t cover enough to justify the 457’s. I can still punch a Zao’s nose in with the 419’s. 30mm overmatch I find simply to be too niche to actually be something I can quantify and say “30mm overmatch got me that hit”, whereas I can quantify the difference between 8 shells vs 12 shells.

Edited by Meatshield_No13

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7 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

no one is going to mention the 30mm overmatch on the 457s????

There are not enough 30mm plates around to justify the loss of almost 33% of your DPM.

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6 minutes ago, Meatshield_No13 said:

30mm overmatch is nice. But the simple truth is 32mm overmatch is the one that makes people notice. 

419 defeats 27mm, so you are covered vs Cruisers bow and stern. 30mm off the top of my head is what the Zao upper belt armor? The simple fact is 30mm overmatch means very little vs 32mm overmatch. 32mm equals BB bow and stern, that’s significant, just look at Yamato as to why. But the divide between 27mm overmatch and 30mm overmatch simply doesn’t cover enough to justify the 457’s. I can still punch a Zao’s nose in with the 419’s. 30mm overmatch I find simply to be too niche to actually be something I can quantify and say “30mm overmatch got me that hit”, whereas I can quantify the difference between 8 shells vs 12 shells.

a few cruisers have 30mm upper belts. the 457s also have better sigma by .2 putting them well above average.

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8 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

a few cruisers have 30mm upper belts. the 457s also have better sigma by .2 putting them well above average.

.2 sigma, which is the probability of shells clustering in the centre of the dispersion ellipse does not outweigh throwing 4 extra shells into said ellipse. There simply isn’t a feature of the 457’s to justify losing barrel count, .2 sigma doesn’t cut it, remember sigma is only a minor part and frequently gets overblown in importance vs other gun characteristics. The 457’s aren’t akin to a T10 Warspite armament where you trade off salvo weight for a quantifiable advantage over the other T6 BBs who bring that quantity. You don’t gain any measurable advantage.

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1 hour ago, Meatshield_No13 said:

Another reason to avoid close in fights. It’s a factor often overlooked when people discuss RN BBs, granted it is minor but RN BBs get their turrets knocked easily compared to other factions. 

Sorta similar with Richelieu. Learned the hardway when in a last act of spite an NC about to sink used his last 2 salvo's to destroy both turrets. 

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52 minutes ago, Meatshield_No13 said:

.2 sigma, which is the probability of shells clustering in the centre of the dispersion ellipse does not outweigh throwing 4 extra shells into said ellipse. There simply isn’t a feature of the 457’s to justify losing barrel count, .2 sigma doesn’t cut it, remember sigma is only a minor part and frequently gets overblown in importance vs other gun characteristics. The 457’s aren’t akin to a T10 Warspite armament where you trade off salvo weight for a quantifiable advantage over the other T6 BBs who bring that quantity. You don’t gain any measurable advantage.

a measurable advantage would be overmatching 30mm plates, as well as an increase in sigma. now is that worht the 4 lost shells. probably not, but it does have its advantages.

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I faced several Conqueror with my Yamato and their turret doesn't seems to get knocked out that easily. Well compared to some ship like Izumo for instance where almost all nose in fight against another BB end up in one turret being disabled.  

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6 hours ago, Ramsalot said:

Played bunch of Conqueror games recently, along side with other T10 BBs.  I noticed Conqueror turrets get knocked out much more often than turrets on other BBs, and that's with Main Armaments Modification 1 and Preventative Maintenance.  So I checked the armor profile, and:

  • 419mm setup with 12 rifles has 381mm face, 254mm cheeks with 152mm roof with 178mm back and sides.
  • 457mm setup with 8 rifles has 456mm face, 305mm cheeks with 254/229mm roof and  229mm sides with 305mm back.

I tried using 457mm turrets, and they do feel much more robust, did not do any number crunching for the difference in DPM in randoms.  Was it always like that, or the armor was nerfed on stock turrets?

People don't like facts.  This has been brought up but it's usually buried by  OMG CONQUEROR HE OMG PLJZ NERF WG1qh1o;1jkh5n;1l!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

19 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

I faced several Conqueror with my Yamato and their turret doesn't seems to get knocked out that easily. Well compared to some ship like Izumo for instance where almost all nose in fight against another BB end up in one turret being disabled.  

When I deal with 419mm armed RN BBs and the French 380mm armed BBs, I specifically go for the turrets.  They're pretty easy to KO.

 

The French 380mm turrets are interesting in their ease to get KO'd.  If you look in the armor viewer, the turret face is respectably thick, about as thick as North Carolina's and nobody complains about them.  The turret faces on the French 380mm turrets also have an angled face, unlike RN & German BBs in many tiers.  What I think makes the French 380mm turrets vulnerable are 3 things.

1.  They are wide.  There's a lot of turret face to hit, especially once we creep into brawling ranges where precision BB salvos is possible.

2.  The barbettes they sit on are yoooge.

3.  Combine this with the very tall barbette of the 2nd forward gun as found on Richelieu and Alsace, aiming right in the middle of the 2 fwd turrets gets great results.  It's very easy to KO the 2nd fwd turret, then take out the remaining, forward most one.

 

When you take out Richelieu's 2 turrets, or both of Alsace's fwd turrets, it's a hilarious accomplishment!

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

When I deal with 419mm armed RN BBs and the French 380mm armed BBs, I specifically go for the turrets.  They're pretty easy to KO.

 

The French 380mm turrets are interesting in their ease to get KO'd.  If you look in the armor viewer, the turret face is respectably thick, about as thick as North Carolina's and nobody complains about them.  The turret faces on the French 380mm turrets also have an angled face, unlike RN & German BBs in many tiers.  What I think makes the French 380mm turrets vulnerable are 3 things.

1.  They are wide.  There's a lot of turret face to hit, especially once we creep into brawling ranges where precision BB salvos is possible.

2.  The barbettes they sit on are yoooge.

3.  Combine this with the very tall barbette of the 2nd forward gun as found on Richelieu and Alsace, aiming right in the middle of the 2 fwd turrets gets great results.  It's very easy to KO the 2nd fwd turret, then take out the remaining, forward most one.

 

When you take out Richelieu's 2 turrets, or both of Alsace's fwd turrets, it's a hilarious accomplishment!

 

I guess I'll try that next time I face a Conqueror. 

 

Yes I also noticed French turret could easily get knocked out but when I look at them they looks quite flat so I guess AP can easily pen. In one of my last Yamato game, the cyclone was hitting hard then a Richelieu pop up. I had no HP and he was 50% HP. I aimed at the turret and shot, instant delete. Not even a single disable lol.

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I have both the Conq and the Republique.   While it is indeed true the Conq guns get knocked out fairly regularly, I've found it to happen far more with the Republique.   That's just my own subjective opinion, and may be more dramtic because if the front guns get blapped, you are left with backing up the rest of the game.   But I do think the French BB has it worse.

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2 hours ago, nagasakee said:

I have both the Conq and the Republique.   While it is indeed true the Conq guns get knocked out fairly regularly, I've found it to happen far more with the Republique.   That's just my own subjective opinion, and may be more dramtic because if the front guns get blapped, you are left with backing up the rest of the game.   But I do think the French BB has it worse.

I run Republique fairly often, it recently became one of my favorite ships due to its ability to citadel cruisers at moderate to long ranges with relative ease.  Anyway, I never get turrets knocked out, trust me I would have noticed if I lost 50% of firepower.  I do have both Preventative Maintenance skill on the captain, and the MAM1 upgrade, perhaps without one of those turrets are more vulnerable?  Also I do try to stay out of brawling range for most of the game, due to thin armor on top that makes the ship vulnerable to focus fire.

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I seem to do the same damage with either set of guns so I generally use the 457s for the armour as I tend to use the insane stealth to get in close and brawl.

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1 hour ago, Ramsalot said:

I run Republique fairly often, it recently became one of my favorite ships due to its ability to citadel cruisers at moderate to long ranges with relative ease.  Anyway, I never get turrets knocked out, trust me I would have noticed if I lost 50% of firepower.  I do have both Preventative Maintenance skill on the captain, and the MAM1 upgrade, perhaps without one of those turrets are more vulnerable?  Also I do try to stay out of brawling range for most of the game, due to thin armor on top that makes the ship vulnerable to focus fire.

those 3 things could be the differences: I especially use the Republique as a brawler, so perhaps being close up is the major issue?

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