Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
red_crested_ibis

A Modest West Virginia Proposal...

9 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

57
[KAPPA]
Members
126 posts
5,152 battles

I had a comment last night that I wanted to flesh out more.  Concerning the addition of the (early 1920s and less desirable) West Virginia, I looked at the ship and immediately lost all desire to purchase it.  I've not been one of those players around since beta or active on the forums, but additional US standard type battleships have been one of the classes I've been looking forward to the most (it was the topic that even brought me to the forum).  I really do desire most a T7 version of either Tennessee or California post refit the most (as I do love my Arizona and I enjoyed New Mex in the grind), but the addition of the last and greatest of standards was a highly anticipated moment.  West Virginia should be the apex of the line, the cream of the crop, and the Standard that can best stand against the newer battleships.

However, at the same time, I realize that WG is going to go out of its way to turn a profit, and a quick turn around on an A hull is, depressingly, one of the ways to go.  And I can't hold that against them; while I do not own them myself, one of my clan mates does have Mutsu and Kii and she finds both of them to be some of her favorite ships to play in general.  I did consider Ashitaka in the past, but reviews that I read about her led me away from purchasing the vessel at the time.  That's the sum total of my experience of the down-tiered battleships.  As such, I don't doubt that they could be balanced around and could even be decent ships at the tier.

However, I believe this is not the way to go about that situation, especially as it deprives WG the chance to turn additional profit down the line with a good post-refit West Virginia.  As such, I figured I would lay out my own recommendation on how to handle the change so WG can have its cake and eat it too:

T6 Premium Colorado

Yes, make the T6 vessel Colorado.  This was the only unmodernized battleship of the three Colorado class,  and it would be most fitting down at T6 in its old A hull form.  This also clears the way for its replacement, which allows for potential further changes.

T7 Tech Tree Maryland

I say make Maryland the tech tree variant, as this provides a potential Hull C refit in the future, which would modernize the AA weaponry and not much else. With the upcoming CV work, to the best of my understanding, AA will be made important again, so the buff brought about by a Hull C should be countered by that. From what I have read, Colorado as a tech tree ship is in need of a buff as it stands.  This may be sufficient enough to buff the vessel without altering other statistics, such as improving Sigma again.

T8 Premium - West Virginia

This is where it is difficult - fitting WV in at T7 would mean likely sacrificing her accuracy.  Making her a secondary ship only at T7 would be hard, as she lacks the speed to dictate engagement range, and it would be opposite of her actual status of having the best fire control of the sisters.  It would either be that, nerfing her AA stats past what they should be, nerfing her reload speed akin to Arizona, just something in that regard.

Or, one could put her at T8.  Have accuracy as good as the old Colorado and better range, coming close to the NC in those terms (perhaps better Sigma but worse dispersion per km, as the latter I believe is the case).  Her hull is short and her turrets are closer, so you have more similar firing angles in comparison to the newer vessels.  Have torpedo protection likely better than Alabama.  Have 4/5s the AA and secondaries of Massachusetts.  And the biggest cost is being limited to 20-21 knots without a speed flag.  It also is incredibly beamy, so it makes a big juicy target for HE spammers.

If she needs additional buffs to actually be competitive at T8, those could be a number of things.  Adjust the heal amount to compensate.  It doesn't have to be Nelson's ship printer, but it can be higher than normal.  Sigma, as mentioned, could be adjusted upwards - 2.05, perhaps even 2.1.  You'd have a slow firing ship using old ammunition and that doesn't pierce as well as newer ammunition, so every shot would have to count more.  Perhaps you could give her the Slot 5 Steering Gears Mod 3 - it'd fit with her ability to drive her shafts in opposite directions (Being turboelectric), and it'd grant her that extra bit of maneuverability to dodge incoming fire.  Perhaps that combined with better accel through turns would allow her to maintain most of her speed in a turn, allowing better performance throughout.

I had mentioned in other comments even a custom flavor consumable for any turboelectric vessel, Evasive Maneuvering, to simulate that - a consumable to reduce rudder shift, tactical diameter, and accel/deccel for 15-20 seconds while active.  This could even take the place of the spotter plane, so those who would be sniping anyway would have to give up that extra maneuverability to do so.

-

Either way, it'd be a premium that is not necessarily easy to play, requires conscious awareness of the battlefield and a plan on how to engage it as you cannot react quickly to changes on the battlefield.  It'd be a premium that would introduce a new playstyle to T8 (there are lots of fast and medium fast battleship, but no slow battleships) and it would reward patient play while punishing overextension.  I don't see how it could be overpowering, just a tough hyperaccurate brick that can be outrun fairly successfully.

-

Oh, and if a US T7 premium battleship is needed, then there is a near immediate solution.

T7 Premium California/Tennessee

It would basically be putting New Mexico's turrets on West Virginia's hull, to be crude.  It would have more guns of smaller caliber, and perhaps better accuracy, than the T7 tech tree Maryland, and it would have better torpedo protection, but it would also be one knot slower and only have roughly equivalent AA.  It would also have the particular flaws of a 14" gun vs the 16" guns used on Maryland.  It wouldn't have the secondary range of WV just because it would be the rough equivalent of Maryland rather than filling out a whole new niche on its own.

 

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,795
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
4,300 posts
16 minutes ago, red_crested_ibis said:

I had a comment last night that I wanted to flesh out more.  Concerning the addition of the (early 1920s and less desirable) West Virginia, I looked at the ship and immediately lost all desire to purchase it.  I've not been one of those players around since beta or active on the forums, but additional US standard type battleships have been one of the classes I've been looking forward to the most (it was the topic that even brought me to the forum).  I really do desire most a T7 version of either Tennessee or California post refit the most (as I do love my Arizona and I enjoyed New Mex in the grind), but the addition of the last and greatest of standards was a highly anticipated moment.  West Virginia should be the apex of the line, the cream of the crop, and the Standard that can best stand against the newer battleships.

However, at the same time, I realize that WG is going to go out of its way to turn a profit, and a quick turn around on an A hull is, depressingly, one of the ways to go.  And I can't hold that against them; while I do not own them myself, one of my clan mates does have Mutsu and Kii and she finds both of them to be some of her favorite ships to play in general.  I did consider Ashitaka in the past, but reviews that I read about her led me away from purchasing the vessel at the time.  That's the sum total of my experience of the down-tiered battleships.  As such, I don't doubt that they could be balanced around and could even be decent ships at the tier.

However, I believe this is not the way to go about that situation, especially as it deprives WG the chance to turn additional profit down the line with a good post-refit West Virginia.  As such, I figured I would lay out my own recommendation on how to handle the change so WG can have its cake and eat it too:

T6 Premium Colorado

Yes, make the T6 vessel Colorado.  This was the only unmodernized battleship of the three Colorado class,  and it would be most fitting down at T6 in its old A hull form.  This also clears the way for its replacement, which allows for potential further changes.

T7 Tech Tree Maryland

I say make Maryland the tech tree variant, as this provides a potential Hull C refit in the future, which would modernize the AA weaponry and not much else. With the upcoming CV work, to the best of my understanding, AA will be made important again, so the buff brought about by a Hull C should be countered by that. From what I have read, Colorado as a tech tree ship is in need of a buff as it stands.  This may be sufficient enough to buff the vessel without altering other statistics, such as improving Sigma again.

T8 Premium - West Virginia

This is where it is difficult - fitting WV in at T7 would mean likely sacrificing her accuracy.  Making her a secondary ship only at T7 would be hard, as she lacks the speed to dictate engagement range, and it would be opposite of her actual status of having the best fire control of the sisters.  It would either be that, nerfing her AA stats past what they should be, nerfing her reload speed akin to Arizona, just something in that regard.

Or, one could put her at T8.  Have accuracy as good as the old Colorado and better range, coming close to the NC in those terms (perhaps better Sigma but worse dispersion per km, as the latter I believe is the case).  Her hull is short and her turrets are closer, so you have more similar firing angles in comparison to the newer vessels.  Have torpedo protection likely better than Alabama.  Have 4/5s the AA and secondaries of Massachusetts.  And the biggest cost is being limited to 20-21 knots without a speed flag.  It also is incredibly beamy, so it makes a big juicy target for HE spammers.

If she needs additional buffs to actually be competitive at T8, those could be a number of things.  Adjust the heal amount to compensate.  It doesn't have to be Nelson's ship printer, but it can be higher than normal.  Sigma, as mentioned, could be adjusted upwards - 2.05, perhaps even 2.1.  You'd have a slow firing ship using old ammunition and that doesn't pierce as well as newer ammunition, so every shot would have to count more.  Perhaps you could give her the Slot 5 Steering Gears Mod 3 - it'd fit with her ability to drive her shafts in opposite directions (Being turboelectric), and it'd grant her that extra bit of maneuverability to dodge incoming fire.  Perhaps that combined with better accel through turns would allow her to maintain most of her speed in a turn, allowing better performance throughout.

I had mentioned in other comments even a custom flavor consumable for any turboelectric vessel, Evasive Maneuvering, to simulate that - a consumable to reduce rudder shift, tactical diameter, and accel/deccel for 15-20 seconds while active.  This could even take the place of the spotter plane, so those who would be sniping anyway would have to give up that extra maneuverability to do so.

-

Either way, it'd be a premium that is not necessarily easy to play, requires conscious awareness of the battlefield and a plan on how to engage it as you cannot react quickly to changes on the battlefield.  It'd be a premium that would introduce a new playstyle to T8 (there are lots of fast and medium fast battleship, but no slow battleships) and it would reward patient play while punishing overextension.  I don't see how it could be overpowering, just a tough hyperaccurate brick that can be outrun fairly successfully.

-

Oh, and if a US T7 premium battleship is needed, then there is a near immediate solution.

T7 Premium California/Tennessee

It would basically be putting New Mexico's turrets on West Virginia's hull, to be crude.  It would have more guns of smaller caliber, and perhaps better accuracy, than the T7 tech tree Maryland, and it would have better torpedo protection, but it would also be one knot slower and only have roughly equivalent AA.  It would also have the particular flaws of a 14" gun vs the 16" guns used on Maryland.  It wouldn't have the secondary range of WV just because it would be the rough equivalent of Maryland rather than filling out a whole new niche on its own.

 

A 21kt BB is just not competitive at Tier 8, even with the upgrades you mention.

We already have plenty of Tier 8 premium BBs.

 

What they need to do is just rename this new ship the Maryland, and give us the refit WV at Tier 7.

  • Bad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57
[KAPPA]
Members
126 posts
5,152 battles
16 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

A 21kt BB is just not competitive at Tier 8, even with the upgrades you mention.

We already have plenty of Tier 8 premium BBs.

 

What they need to do is just rename this new ship the Maryland, and give us the refit WV at Tier 7.

 

Colorado has 21 knots at T7.  Next slowest ship is a Nagato, which would have +4 knots on Colorado.  Next slowest is Lyon, which would have +6 knots on Colorado.  Next slowest ship is KGV, which is +7 on ColoradoGneisenau is the oddball with +11 knots.  That's not counting premiums; if we do that, then you do have Nelson, which has +3 on Colorado.

For a West Virginia at T8, the tech tree opponents would be Rich (32 knots), Monarch (28 knots), Amagi (30 knots), Bismarck (31 knots) and NC (27.5 knots).  The lowest of those would be +6.5 knots on a West Virginia rated at 21.  The average speed ticks up at 3.1 knots faster from T7 to T8 for the tech tree vessels (not weighing for actual populations).  That's not even accounting for vessels not actual obtaining full speed at all times throughout a battle, meaning the speed differential is less meaningful.  

That's not to mention that as a bottom tier vessel, Colorado would be facing up against T9, which are not qualitatively faster than a West Virginia would be facing as a T10.  The only issue is that West Virginia would face T9 more often, being a T8, but it is also more suited to actually handle T9 compared to Colorado.  It just doesn't face bottom tier T5, which is perfectly fine.  

The point is to actual encourage maneuvering by not punishing the player with as much of a speed reduction, so you're not sailing in a straight line all the time (unlike some battleships, which I know can take huge speed penalties as well).  So, I don't believe that the speed issue is as major of one.  Yes, it could lead to situations which are awkward, where one can be out of position and not be able to flee, but that's what I mean about it encouraging smart play, rather than being just another fast battleship at a tier.

-

Since you've stated this multiple times, will you please explain why you believe 21 knots is too slow, and give your opinion as to what is the minimum speed required to function at T8?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
212
[O_O]
Members
797 posts
5,125 battles
19 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

A 21kt BB is just not competitive at Tier 8, even with the upgrades you mention.

I agree it wouldn't necessarily be competitive, but I've got to agree with LWM on it being ridiculous fun for Random games.  I've never really had a problem burning speed flags and keeping up with things in Standards.  Just think ahead and make sure you're in the right place at the right time and 23kts is plenty. 

Accurate, authentic-ROF secondaries and accurate 406mm guns that will still reach out and touch you from 18km away seems plenty effective to me, especially if she maneuvers well to get all eight rounds off and then hide the broadside between shots.

You do have a significant point about there being plenty of Tier VIII premium BBs, not much about that I can argue.  Also +1 for Maryland, especially if she comes with the white camo.

-R

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57
[KAPPA]
Members
126 posts
5,152 battles
14 minutes ago, Mister_Rawr said:

You do have a significant point about there being plenty of Tier VIII premium BBs, not much about that I can argue.  Also +1 for Maryland, especially if she comes with the white camo.

There are plenty of US T8 premiums, but they're basically two ships that are slightly different from each other and NC, otherwise functioning similar.  At least a T8 West Virginia would be functionally different and have a completely different play style.

But yeah.  It's why I would suggest also doing a T7 Tennesee/California.  That way you can reuse many of your assets and get two premiums at two tiers with minimal nerfs to each vessel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,795
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
4,300 posts
53 minutes ago, red_crested_ibis said:

 

Colorado has 21 knots at T7.  Next slowest ship is a Nagato, which would have +4 knots on Colorado.  Next slowest is Lyon, which would have +6 knots on Colorado.  Next slowest ship is KGV, which is +7 on ColoradoGneisenau is the oddball with +11 knots.  That's not counting premiums; if we do that, then you do have Nelson, which has +3 on Colorado.

For a West Virginia at T8, the tech tree opponents would be Rich (32 knots), Monarch (28 knots), Amagi (30 knots), Bismarck (31 knots) and NC (27.5 knots).  The lowest of those would be +6.5 knots on a West Virginia rated at 21.  The average speed ticks up at 3.1 knots faster from T7 to T8 for the tech tree vessels (not weighing for actual populations).  That's not even accounting for vessels not actual obtaining full speed at all times throughout a battle, meaning the speed differential is less meaningful.  

That's not to mention that as a bottom tier vessel, Colorado would be facing up against T9, which are not qualitatively faster than a West Virginia would be facing as a T10.  The only issue is that West Virginia would face T9 more often, being a T8, but it is also more suited to actually handle T9 compared to Colorado.  It just doesn't face bottom tier T5, which is perfectly fine.  

The point is to actual encourage maneuvering by not punishing the player with as much of a speed reduction, so you're not sailing in a straight line all the time (unlike some battleships, which I know can take huge speed penalties as well).  So, I don't believe that the speed issue is as major of one.  Yes, it could lead to situations which are awkward, where one can be out of position and not be able to flee, but that's what I mean about it encouraging smart play, rather than being just another fast battleship at a tier.

-

Since you've stated this multiple times, will you please explain why you believe 21 knots is too slow, and give your opinion as to what is the minimum speed required to function at T8?  

So your argument for a Tier 8 21kt battleship is to immediately cite Tier 7.... where Colorado is already the slowest battleship and commonly seen as disadvantaged due to her speed.

Now you want to go up a tier where this hypothetical WV would be too slow to catch anything in the game that didn’t want to be caught, to slow to run from anything that wanted to catch her, Too slow to react to anything going on tactically in terms of repositioning.... AND in a position to be up against Tier X competition about 40% of the time.

If you can’t see a problem with that, you’d better spend some time thinking about it.

  • Bad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57
[KAPPA]
Members
126 posts
5,152 battles
1 minute ago, TheDreadnought said:

So your argument for a Tier 8 21kt battleship is to immediately cite Tier 7.... where Colorado is already the slowest battleship and commonly seen as disadvantaged due to her speed.

Now you want to go up a tier where this hypothetical WV would be too slow to catch anything in the game that didn’t want to be caught, to slow to run from anything that wanted to catch her, Too slow to react to anything going on tactically in terms of repositioning.... AND in a position to be up against Tier X competition about 40% of the time.

If you can’t see a problem with that, you’d better spend some time thinking about it.

And then we see where it actually would take planning and forethought to take that into account.  Not overextending or running around the edges as far from the battle as possible, where one can't react if they went the wrong direction.

If you are in a position where the enemy can gang up and outrun you, you're probably in a bad spot anyway as you've overextended yourself.  You have to hedge your bets and actually stay with the team.  (Kinda like how the Standard class was designed to fight - in a battle line, not as a solo warrior).  

If you're in a position where the enemy can outrun you, then they outrun you.  It's not like they can outrun you and return fire, as then the enemy will be spotted and unless it's something firing at you from 20km+, then you can return fire.  So, the only thing they can do is run from you and use torpedoes and not fire their guns... which is where the ship having the best torpedo protection at tier would come into play, as then you an either take the hits or dodge them as you'd also be the best ship at dodging torpedoes.

US Standards are too slow to catch anything in the game at their respective tier.  That's not exactly a new phenomenon as far as I know.  But how often is a vessel constantly going at flank speed 

And the power differential of T9 vs T10 doesn't seem quite as frightening anymore, what with the Musashi being at T9 and being just as big a threat to Colorado as Yamato would be to WV.  Conqueror is still a fire spewing death machine.  So is Harugumo vs Kitakaze, Des and Worcester vs Seattle and Buffalo, etc.  It's mostly incremental upgrades anymore, compared to it being a pure wall.  That's when you take advantage of your slow speed and good maneuverability to actively dodge shots, rather than just depend on your speed which you lose anyway when you make a hard turn, like in other battleships.

I don't play competitive at all, not one bit.  So I can't speak if that's what you're referring to when you say it's uncompetitive.  It sounds perfectly reasonable for random.

And, honestly, I'd be far more interesting in a ship with a different playstyle at a different tier with lots of potential than "a Colorado clone at T7 that trades accuracy for better AA" 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
114
[KAPPA]
Members
505 posts
5,227 battles
4 hours ago, red_crested_ibis said:

And, honestly, I'd be far more interesting in a ship with a different playstyle at a different tier with lots of potential than "a Colorado clone at T7 that trades accuracy for better AA" 

Ohh god, please no. Not another nerf... I miss the old sigma enough as it is! Just imagine it sinking down to 1.5 sigma or something!

Still, the thing about being slow is that it gives you time to think. Old Colorado is my most played ship. Katori is one of my other most played ships, too. Yes, T8+ is a whole other ballgame when it comes to BBs, but that isn't about being one. It's about seeing T8+ BBs. A T6 BB is going to have a hard time trying to bounce those shells without auto-bounce being brought into play due to the bow plating being so thin. T7 likewise can't generally bow tank well. Colorado may be one of my worse BBs I've played in excess, but she was also the BB I learned the basics of BBs in. Originally I went up the IJN BB line, but I hated Kongou. Then I went up the US BB line and hated NC A. Even today I still hate NC A, but I have grown to at least understand her now that I've reached NC B, and found out that I'm honestly kinda a monster when put in Nagato.

That said, the reason I hated NC was because she felt like she was made of paper. This was pre-buff, when her cit was towering a few km above the water, or at least it felt like it. Back then, I was a bit of a sniper in Col, and it affected my WR as you'd expect, settling me at about a 48% WR. However, I didn't try to force things like a lot of newer players seem to do, and I dropped NC like a bad habit, as I knew I wasn't ready for her. I was so used to being slow that being fast was painful, as it meant I'd over extend constantly.

That said, while what was said about my love for Mutsu is true, that doesn't mean I actually like her guns per se. The AP shatters constantly, and it's honestly frustrating, no matter how . Having guns that size at T6 should lead to sacrifices in other areas you'd think, not in the guns, but good lord... If the T6 colorado actually had reliable guns, I might consider her, but when her competition is Warspite and Arizona, it just feels like you have to ask if it's even worth it to give up so much to have that.

Still, back on topic...

At tier 8, I actually think she could work... but she'd need to feel more like Katori if she were a BB than like your average standard. She'd have horrible speed, but tremendous accuracy, as I imagine it. Not Yamato levels of accuracy, but perhaps Iowa's fully buffed accuracy, but with the mod baked in? As, when you give up something so great, you need something in order to not fall behind so as to apease the meta gamers. The old Colorado's accuracy allowed me to get some nasty cits in from 20km+ off, even outright obliterating ships in a single salve. Sure, she couldn't do it every time, but any time a battle would start, I could get a cit in with some level of consistency. With her sigma now so much lower, I've sadly used her far, far, far less.

Actually, that Iowa idea gave me a thought. Give her access to the T9 slot, which would give her the choice. That way she can be accurate if you want, or you can give her other buffs. For instance, you could buff her RoF or even range. If there's one thing about Col it's that her guns become devestating at longer ranges. Yes it's not the most effective way to play a BB, but the ballistics of the shells just turn her into a monster at those ranges, citting through decks with ease.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×