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Ducky_shot

WG is jumping the shark by adding submarines

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So yesterday they said that they don't look at player feedback when doing things... That was obvious, look how far they dug in their heels with the GZ debacle until the public outcry was too much and their CC's revolted. So glad they fixed that debacle.......... /s

So what stats told them that subs were needed in game and that the player base would be overjoyed to see them? They obviously have to pay attention to their customers sometime then.... Will we be getting an explanation from sub Octavian on why the about face in this?

What stats told them they needed to raise the ceiling on an already strong dd like the haida? The buff they have announced (3.5km ship spotting and 2.5km Torp spotting with the hydro) will not make it much better for the general player base but instead raises the ceiling fairly dramatically for the higher end players. What stats are they basing thus garbage off of? Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly take a buff to one of my favorite ships. But like giving ijn 100s 1/4 pen, I think this is a mistake that mostly benefits the higher end players. 

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Adding subs is an incredibly dumb idea. They will be almost impossible to properly balance, and historically speaking it doesn’t make sense either. Subs were rarely used against capital ships, an expection being the Pacific, as far as I know. They were mainly used against slow moving merchant and supply ships, their main mission being to cripple the enemy’s logistical system, hence why the battle of the Atlantic was so important in WW2. But subs in WoWs would be up against ships they were never really designed to fight. Based on how they are balanced subs will be either insanely broken or complete garbage. They just won’t work properly in my opinion. 

I could be wrong, maybe subs will be a great addition. But from what I can see so far this looks like a bad idea and waste of time. There’s so many more major balance issues that need to be fixed before we add even more of them. There are plenty of great submarine games out there WoWs doesn’t need to be one of them to stay relevant.

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Stats are provided by the actions of all players.  Opinions typically only come from vocal people who have a problem with the game.  Which would you primarily base your economic decisions on?

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But my point is, what stats do they have to look at to decide to add subs to the game? 

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They used to listen to feedback quite a bit... Now they polished the game enough that they can ignore most of the feedback. Most people don't want the new launcher... And they don't care.

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It isn't that sub weren't designed to counter capital ship. In fact, it is even the opposite (first subs were created to attacks warship). Its just that Germany was never in a position to control the sea and fall back into attacking convoy. But they did attack some RN Capital Ship (Royal Oak was sunk that way). And in the Pacific area (were the majority of naval warfare happened) subs attacked frequently Allied or IJN warship. Were they use in battle? not at the same time than ship, true. But they were frequently before or after the main fleet, be it to finish off enemy survivor or spot.

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4 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

But my point is, what stats do they have to look at to decide to add subs to the game? 

The number of ships of the existing types (DD, CA, CV, BB) that they can release in the future.

Someone linked an article stating the devs are running out of tech tree ship lines.

Left:

British CA's

British CV's

Russian BB's (I know).

Limited Pan-Asian, Pan-American, and Pan-European lines.

That isn't a lot left, especially since the British CV's are in the works.

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9 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

But my point is, what stats do they have to look at to decide to add subs to the game? 

My opinion is that stats didn't dictate this decision, but rather their competitors. Having subs in the game provides WoWs with something that Warthunder so far hasn't shown.  WoWs will be able to proclaim itself as the only naval MMO that has most forms of WW2 naval weapons.

Personally it's still early to decide on how subs will influence the game. Now there is a nice paradox here. On the one hand WG doesn't care about feedback, on the other hand feedback on the Halloween event will help them decide whether to introduce subs into the main game. This tells me that there is no uniform policy on stuff such as this.

In the meantime we are having the same maps cycling over and over, bugs, crashes and various other little things that are silly for a game such as this, like for example using an external browser for inventory.

I am afraid all the big announcements of this and that is sand in our eyes.

Edited by warheart1992
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I have more faith in WG than you do. I think they will pull it off and most of us are going to like it.

submarine GIF
 

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When it gets to a certain size, they have to look at what the aggregate data says, not the 'forum fraction' says, most of the time.  There are exceptions, of course.

Also, strategic direction is sometimes just that.  They feel that it is in their best interest to do X, even if the forums don't like it.   Again, we see this all the time.  There are documented instances of companies actually killing a game doing this, but that's very much the exception, not the rule.  There are several instances where they listened to feedback *too much* and killed a game.  So, back to the way I operate: the game offers what they offer; I either play, or I don't.  I may give feedback when leaving, or I may not.  In the end, it's my choice to play, or not, but it's their game to run.  

Keep in mind that they know from logs and such:

Who plays what ships

In what modes

What they say in chat while doing it

How good (or bad) they are at playing them.

And several other things that they can see.

 

So, they can judge just how important 'latest furor X' on the forum is.  Is it just a few people, or is it the whole game?  They can tell.  We can't.  We on the forums don't see the whole picture.

 

 

 

 

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They still have French dds, Italian dds, Italian bbs, Italian cruisers, Russian bbs, pan euro dds, pan euro cruisers, British CVs, British cruiser split, American bb split, cw dds, possibly cw cruisers, pan American dds, pan American cruisers, probably some other dd splits.

3 lines a year is still 4 years of content

Edited by Ducky_shot

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I see no problem placing them in for Halloween operations. Placing them in the main game? Too many issues for balance.

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The subs now are pretty much a tech demo your looking at something like a year for them to even get close to having them ready for anything other then ops. Subs also open up wows to having Frigates/destroyer escorts lines being added. 

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1 minute ago, Ducky_shot said:

They still have French dds, Italian dds, Italian bbs, Italian cruisers, Russian bbs, pan euro dds, pan euro cruisers, British CVs, American bb split, cw dds, possibly cw cruisers, pan American dds, pan American cruisers, probably some other dd splits. 

They already mentioned for the next year: Dutch cruisers, French DDs, and Brit CVs after the rework.

 

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Times change!

Looking forward to it :D

EDIT: So why would someone downvote this? Are you that guy that still rides horses instead of a car? Suprised you found your way to a computer tbh.

Edited by LemonadeWarrior
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5 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

I see no problem placing them in for Halloween operations. Placing them in the main game? Too many issues for balance.

I think from a PvE standpoint... it is BRILLIANT.  From a PvP standpoint, "Oh Hell Naw."

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In a game without merchant convoys.................ah, their purpose is..........

Subs can't really exist in this game without huge changes.  I doubt WG can even get close to what subs are, let alone figure out how to use them without it becoming an extinction level event....

Maps are too small.  Water is too shallow.  Aircraft were the number one sub spotting tool.  Radar was #2 and that means a lot more radar.  ASW doesn't exist in the game mechanics and because ASW is always within a kilometer of the sub, that won't work because of the radar and HE spam meta's........there isn't a freaking chance in hell that a DD will drive in circles around two grid squares pinging away as the entire enemy team is shooting at him!!!!

Naw, a gimmick because WG is out of ideas and can see the writing on the wall: they've exhausted the time line and as I've been saying for months, the radar meta was an era expansion marketing gimmick to measure era expansion into the 1960's and Aluminum ships and missiles.....  WG is a brown ocean small niche market and the only way forward is era and new tech........  Of course, if they made this a competition to innovate the game play, they'd have several neat ideas from those of us that "do this kind of work" and it'd save them millions in R&D and be a lot more accurate since it comes from the customers......  Oh well, that won't happen........  (WG, you should take the hint.......)

Edited by Asym_KS
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LOL.

WG initially wanted subs

They could not make them work

No subs

Other game like WOWS made subs work

WG figured out how to potentially make them work

WG uses Halloween event as a sand box test to see how it goes.

And that is as far as we have gotten. No guarantee subs are coming to PVP. I hope they are and I have always thought they would eventually. 

Cheers.

 

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2 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

In a game without merchant convoys.................ah, their purpose is..........

Subs can't really exist in this game without huge changes.  I doubt WG can even get close to what subs are, let alone figure out how to use them without it becoming an extinction level event....

Maps are too small.  Water is too shallow.  Aircraft were the number one sub spotting tool.  Radar was #2 and that means a lot more radar.  ASW doesn't exist in the game mechanics and because ASW is always within a kilometer of the sub, that won't work because of the radar and HE spam meta's........there isn't a freaking chance in hell that a DD will drive in circles around two grid squares pinging away as the entire enemy team is shooting at him!!!!

Naw, a gimmick because WG is out of ideas and can see the writing on the wall: they've exhausted the time line and as I've been saying for months, the radar meta was an era expansion marketing gimmick to measure era expansion into the 1960's and Aluminum ships and missiles.....  WG is a brown ocean small niche market and the only way forward is era and new tech........  Of course, if they made this a competition to innovate the game play, they'd have several neat ideas from those of us that "do this kind of work" and it'd save them millions in R&D and be a lot more accurate since it comes from the customers......  Oh well, that won't happen........  (WG, you should take the hint.......)

Perhaps WG is better at this than you are. They are going to try, lets see how good or bad it is.

world war i ocean GIF by US National Archives
 

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9 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

They already mentioned for the next year: Dutch cruisers, French DDs, and Brit CVs after the rework.

 

I would thing WG wouldn't want to wait until they have run out of existing ship lines before they implement submarines (if they do).

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Ill stay away from the historical use of subs and juts mention the balance issues.

 

Ww2 subs were essentially extremely fragile surface ships that used a combination of small caliber guns and torpedoes to ambush targets and that could use a unique mechanism unavailable to it's  pursuers to escape for relatively short periods of time, albeit with severe movement and manueverability limitations in the process.

 

Hmm... Sounds alot like a type of ship already in the game (just replace a subs crash dive with a dds smoke).

 

If there's a way to balance dds in bthe game then the only balance issue with subs will be how to differentiate them from dds and give them a unique playstyle.

 

 

Edited by Shadeylark

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The DD trolls complained loud enough that they were actually taking damage, so WG is adding in another stealth class with a mechanic that enables them to avoid 90% of any damage they could possibly take.

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2 minutes ago, JonnyFreedom said:

I think from a PvE standpoint... it is BRILLIANT.  From a PvP standpoint, "Oh Hell Naw."

Agree and agree.

That being said, I'm open to changing my mind based on what we see in the Halloween event. There are so many crazy special abilities which are OK in that but which would break the normal game, I think nobody would care if DD's get the permanent long-range hydro they are going to need. If they ever made their way into normal gameplay, we would have to have a distinction between hydroacoustic search (vs ships and torpedoes) and sonar (which ideally would reveal subs and maybe torpedoes, but not ships). I'm thinking sonar would probably work like radar underwater.

Slow submerged speed and torpedo reload, a fixed torpedo arc dead ahead/astern, an oxygen limiter to force them to come up eventually, and the ability to deny submergence with a solid hull penetration could all be balancing factors. I suspect the latter will be the submarine equivalent of a citadel.

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