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Admiral_Thrawn_1

Idea to fix MM and Karma

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In WOT Blitz they did something called the military honor system where at the end of each battle you get limited number of upvotes and limited for the day number of downvotes. Your name changes color in battle chat depending on your military honor level and if you take a break for weeks or months your level goes down to neutral. But you can view the overall “ lifetime  “ record for good and bad, and typically if you did decently well you get upvotes and very few downvotes. Has proven to be rather nice in WOT Blitz and WOWs is supposed to be less toxic than tanks so might work here.

Now what if in Ranked you matched the people will 5 star level in Military honor together and the guys that ended up with very poor level of it together? Does take something to drive the level up or down so would filter out players and since downvotes are limited fir the day either you get upvotes or don’t get them if you do well, only if you are genuinely causing trouble does the bad status get bestowed on you since limited number of them each day unlike upvotes.

I know we have quite a few WOT Blitz players around so decided to put worth this idea for WOWs PC since was just playing some tank battles to cool down from WOWs PC Ranked ( Feeling like you can better control outcome of entire battle in tanks and got me thinking.)

MM threads have gone round and round and round over the issue of good and bad players, and WOT Blitz uses the system to try and promote good play and allows you to better know who to listen to in battle chat. All the system would need is little tweaking I would think to act as MM filter for Ranked. It would keep the really bad players out of the good player’s battles, and if a player wishes to change their ways and clean up their act they could with proper behavior and player rise back up out of the gutter, but would take time. Like I said takes time to go either way so your not going to get sent down without being deserving it. I pick up the occasional down vote from unhappy players, but the nature of the system makes it so if you try to do the right thing then in general get rewarded for it.  Much better system than current Karna system and could work for WOWs and maybe for filtering the Ranked MM. 

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1
Fixed auto correct mistake
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I'm not sure I understand the proposal.

 

Are you suggesting that Match Maker take into account an arbitrary measure, created by the personal disposition of players, to select teams for ranked?

 

Since high Karma does not equate to game performance/competence, what are you suggesting? 

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The only thing about Karma that needs to be fixed is its entire existence.   Remove karma entirely!

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4 minutes ago, _Big_Lou_ said:

I'm not sure I understand the proposal.

 

Are you suggesting that Match Maker take into account an arbitrary measure, created by the personal disposition of players, to select teams for ranked?

 

Since high Karma does not equate to game performance/competence, what are you suggesting? 

What I am suggesting is players that continuously prove useless get put together and that the players that actually know how to play get put together. You actually play your military honor level will go up over the course of few battles, but you just sail around randomly, shooting allies, and just running your mouth entire battle then your military honor will end up going down over the course of battles.

Like I pointed out in WOT Blitz players will listen to people with the colored names of good honor level and know the ones that have colors below neutral are most likely not worth much.

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3 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

What I am suggesting is players that continuously prove useless get put together and that the players that actually know how to play get put together. You actually play your military honor level will go up over the course of few battles, but you just sail around randomly, shooting allies, and just running your mouth entire battle then your military honor will end up going down over the course of battles.

Like I pointed out in WOT Blitz players will listen to people with the colored names of good honor level and know the ones that have colors below neutral are most likely not worth much.

Here is the flaw in the logic I see. Please correct me if/where I am wrong.

"Players that actually know how to play" is more indicative of a person's winning percentage and associated stats versus the opinion of teammates. Perhaps teammates think a player is "sailing around randomly" when they actually have a firm grasp on the map and associated tactics to get into a flanking position. Perhaps teammates think a player is "running their mouth"  are mistaking actual tactical/strategic expertise as somebody being "bossy" or "rude".

 

FWIW: In my experience, skill/competence/ability in any field comes with some frustration when people don't understand why somebody is doing something or why they are doing something that appears "stupid" to a less skilled/competent/able person. Imagine a chess master being criticized over a move that is an apparent mistake. What may look like a mistake to an observer is actually checkmate in 9 moves.

 

The point that I agree with you is that "players that actually know how to play" do not shoot their teammates.

 

If you're more interested in grouping the "friendly in chat" people with the "rude in chat" people. I would put my money on the rude people to win most games as they will be the most competent (in my experience).

 

Any thoughts, where am I wrong? Thanks!

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The problem with something like this is you, if i understand correctly,  are basing the score off of what other players observe and vote for a given players performance, this is a horribly arbitrary and prejudicial way to do something. any matchmaking filter has to be fair and unbiased...adding a human factor automatically makes this suggestion biased.

bad idea

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52 minutes ago, Crucis said:

The only thing about Karma that needs to be fixed is its entire existence.   Remove karma entirely!

^^ This.

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Your name changes color in battle chat depending on your military honor level and if you take a break for weeks or months your level goes down to neutral.

Im kinda feeling this idea

1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

allows you to better know who to listen to in battle chat.

yes. that would be a useful use of Karma. 

 

1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Now what if in Ranked you matched the people will 5 star level in Military honor togethe

Not feeling this. Creative though. 

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

The only thing about Karma that needs to be fixed is its entire existence.   Remove karma entirely!

 

26 minutes ago, Kuckoo said:

^^ This.

While I am not really supportive of flaccid attempts at positive reinforcement, I am against the complete removal of any positivity in online games. If you only hate it because you behave badly, are a poor sport, always berating teammates, and other poor behaviors-- the problem isn't the Karma system.

 

I'm hardly a paragon of goodness and I've never had a chat ban or negative karma since it was added to the game. I want the system to improve to the point where it legit impacts the player experience. Because maybe when players are rewarded for being good people, they'll start acting like good people. Instead of, you know, rewarding garbage behaviors that would get them punched in the mouth or arrested in a public setting.

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22 minutes ago, LubzinNJ said:

How about just let people play and enjoy? The whole karma system is stupid.

Because you might enjoy acting like a raging tool, but other people don't. Why do they not deserve to play and enjoy, too? Why can't we have systems that encourage positive behavior?

 

Why are we so fixated on punishing bad behavior but so against rewarding good behavior?

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13 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Because you might enjoy acting like a raging tool, but other people don't. Why do they not deserve to play and enjoy, too? Why can't we have systems that encourage positive behavior?

 

Why are we so fixated on punishing bad behavior but so against rewarding good behavior?

What is the punishment? What is the reward? It's a number on your profile that as far as I know only you can see.

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2 minutes ago, LubzinNJ said:

What is the punishment? What is the reward? It's a number on your profile that as far as I know only you can see.

The flaccid attempt at rewarding is: Satisfaction at seeing the Karma number, and quarterly camouflage rewards

 

The punishments I've seen meanwhile range from temporary chat bans to permanent account bans.

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4 hours ago, nina_blain_73 said:

The problem with something like this is you, if i understand correctly,  are basing the score off of what other players observe and vote for a given players performance, this is a horribly arbitrary and prejudicial way to do something. any matchmaking filter has to be fair and unbiased...adding a human factor automatically makes this suggestion biased.

bad idea

Got a better idea?

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2 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Got a better idea?

 

Admiral, could you state the problem?

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The glaring issue that I see here is that you seem to conflate player skill with "politeness" or "toxicity". There's frankly very little to suggest that the two are strongly correlated. Furthermore, what you perceive as poor play is not necessarily valid, and even top players would react differently to the same scenario. Furthermore, attempting to assign players as "good" or "bad" based on some nebulous "honor" system is beyond ludicrous. There are already metrics such as average win rate and damage that can provide a reasonably reliable indication of a player's skill, regardless of whether or not you like that or not.

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18 minutes ago, _Big_Lou_ said:

 

Admiral, could you state the problem?

You will find out once I reach Rank 1 or after Ranked ends, but let’s just say Wargaming in current MM system is able to rig matches and I figured out now how the system can do and how to slip through it. I will revealing that once I have finished making use of it in current Ranked System, But lets just say many of you will be wanting the system changed lol. You see there are patterns to how Wargaming does their MM to give you good and bad teams and I pretty much have them figured out now. 

So tried putting forth a different system for consideration.

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5 hours ago, _Big_Lou_ said:

FWIW: In my experience, skill/competence/ability in any field comes with some frustration when people don't understand why somebody is doing something or why they are doing something that appears "stupid" to a less skilled/competent/able person. Imagine a chess master being criticized over a move that is an apparent mistake. What may look like a mistake to an observer is actually checkmate in 9 moves.

This is why any system that allows the public to vote is so flawed as anyone can strike you for various reasons that they think they're in the right. There's even times others use it in a way to spite someone just because you play a certain ship, as revenge if you killed that person, or blame you for their death (or team loss) when that other person has only themselves to blame for their error.

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Just now, DeliciousFart said:

The glaring issue that I see here is that you seem to conflate player skill with "politeness" or "toxicity". There's frankly very little to suggest that the two are strongly correlated. Furthermore, what you perceive as poor play is not necessarily valid, and even top players would react differently to the same scenario. Furthermore, attempting to assign players as "good" or "bad" based on some nebulous "honor" system is beyond ludicrous. There are already metrics such as average win rate and damage that can provide a reasonably reliable indication of a player's skill, regardless of whether or not you like that or not.

I have known proffesionals in various fields that act professional when on the job and they have the skills to go with it as well. I mean why not be calm. When you are some of the best right? On the other hand if you are poorly skilled and can’t figure something out then what do people commonly react with...

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1 minute ago, Termx said:

This is why any system that allows the public to vote is so flawed as anyone can strike you for various reasons that they think they're in the right. There's even times others use it in a way to spite someone just because you play a certain ship, as revenge if you killed that person, or blame you for their death (or team loss) when that other person has only themselves to blame for their error.

And yet it works in one of the most toxic games on the market.

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Just now, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I have known proffesionals in various fields that act professional when on the job and they have the skills to go with it as well. I mean why not be calm. When you are some of the best right? On the other hand if you are poorly skilled and can’t figure something out then what do people commonly react with...

You are again trying to conflate personal conduct and courtesy with skill in WOWS. There’s very little to demonstrate the strong correlation that you’re pushing, and all you’ve done is use anecdotes from completely different settings as evidence. Plenty of good players will express frustration in not-so-nice manners when another player in a match display incompetence. I don’t see how this is a problem; after all, this is just a game, not a profession. Furthermore, as I’ve said, what is considered poor play will vary between players. An incompetent player may not be good enough to actually understand that what he/she is doing is wrong. Even amongst competent players there may be disagreements about the best course of action to take given a situation.

I frankly find the entire premise of the topic objectionable. As flawed as matchmaking is, it is not rigged against any particular player, and attempting to introduce public voting into the equation will be ripe for the potential for abuse and create far more problems.

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6 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

You will find out once I reach Rank 1 or after Ranked ends, but let’s just say Wargaming in current MM system is able to rig matches and I figured out now how the system can do and how to slip through it. I will revealing that once I have finished making use of it in current Ranked System, But lets just say many of you will be wanting the system changed lol. You see there are patterns to how Wargaming does their MM to give you good and bad teams and I pretty much have them figured out now. 

So tried putting forth a different system for consideration.

It's only possible if you actually observed the main source code that's written that calculates how the teams get formed. But that requires accessing their server-side data which will be secured and unavailable from an outside connection.

It looks more you're just going by what you observed while playing and just writing down your results on a notepad. That data will be flawed as matching depends heavily on what ships are in the queue and how many players currently online in that bracket, and that various every hour during the day. So it's not going to be conclusive data since everyone's experience is going to be different.

 

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1 minute ago, Termx said:

It's only possible if you actually observed the main source code that's written that calculates how the teams get formed. But that requires accessing their server-side data which will be secured and unavailable from an outside connection.

It looks more you're just going by what you observed while playing and just writing down your results on a notepad. That data will be flawed as matching depends heavily on what ships are in the queue and how many players currently online in that bracket, and that various every hour during the day. So it's not going to be conclusive data since everyone's experience is going to be different.

 

There is another option, I play in International chess tourments and to make headway in those you have to be able to read subtle patterns innthe games or else get blindsided by a trap few moves ahead. And you don’t get the sourcecodes of people brains or of chess computers, nope you have to be able to read the patterns of the piece movements to figure that out. Also playing against Ai computers you can figure out their algorithms just by watching them. And Wargaming being Russian Company, they will have their style imprinted into their MM system as well. Was rather clever I must say, but so far my results and results of some of my friends have improved enough that if we keep going I think the results will be proven.

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37 minutes ago, DeliciousFart said:

You are again trying to conflate personal conduct and courtesy with skill in WOWS. There’s very little to demonstrate the strong correlation that you’re pushing, and all you’ve done is use anecdotes from completely different settings as evidence. Plenty of good players will express frustration in not-so-nice manners when another player in a match display incompetence. I don’t see how this is a problem; after all, this is just a game, not a profession. Furthermore, as I’ve said, what is considered poor play will vary between players. An incompetent player may not be good enough to actually understand that what he/she is doing is wrong. Even amongst competent players there may be disagreements about the best course of action to take given a situation.

I frankly find the entire premise of the topic objectionable. As flawed as matchmaking is, it is not rigged against any particular player, and attempting to introduce public voting into the equation will be ripe for the potential for abuse and create far more problems.

Only suggesting one of Wargaming’s own ideas since not like they will do anything the dev team does not come up with. But since Wargaming came up with, don’t be surprised if one day it shows up in WOWs...

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5 hours ago, KiyoSenkan said:

 

While I am not really supportive of flaccid attempts at positive reinforcement, I am against the complete removal of any positivity in online games. If you only hate it because you behave badly, are a poor sport, always berating teammates, and other poor behaviors-- the problem isn't the Karma system.

 

I'm hardly a paragon of goodness and I've never had a chat ban or negative karma since it was added to the game. I want the system to improve to the point where it legit impacts the player experience. Because maybe when players are rewarded for being good people, they'll start acting like good people. Instead of, you know, rewarding garbage behaviors that would get them punched in the mouth or arrested in a public setting.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.  I don't think that Pollyannas are good people.  I think that they're gutless marshmallows.  And I don't think that calling out bad play makes one a bad person either.  This is all a bunch of nonsense.

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