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HMS Cossack, t8 Tribal class dd premium

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HMS Cossack, has now been offically announced, and priced as part of the upcoming British dd mission arc. 9600 doublons/50 guineas.

price.PNG.477cfbcfa410fb63a17483c91fb103b5.PNG

She is to be released as a tier 8, which makes me curious on 2 counts.

a) How will they make Cossack a viable t8, when her improved sister ship, Haida, struggled to find a satisfactory spot in tier 7?

b) HMS Cossack is still absent from the Wiki (maybe the Wiki team can shed some light on this), even though, HMS Lightening, the tech tree t8  dd, is already present.

wiki.thumb.PNG.e0a89d7ab52d58eeae1521f7b578cd8a.PNG

We need answers!

 

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Since when did haida not find a satisfactory spot?? The thing is the best t7 dd in the game. 

Not everyone is going to get it to work, l'm sorry if you are bad in it. 

Edited by Ducky_shot

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7 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Since when did haida not find a satisfactory spot?? The thing is the best t7 dd in the game. 

Not everyone is going to get it to work, l'm sorry if you are bad in it. 

Haida is fine, as released, at t7, but she was the same ship class as Cossack (tribal), only (because boring historical arguments..), better. So how can they put the worse Cossack, at t8? 

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3 minutes ago, DarthZeppelin said:

Haida is fine, as released, at t7, but she was the same ship class as Cossack, only (because boring historical arguments..), better. So how can they put the worse Cossack, at t8? 

25% more firepower. Better concealment too, I think. 4 turrets>3 turrets. Better turret angles as well with that 3rd turret

Edited by Ducky_shot

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The development of the Haida was faar from smooth.  They really struggled to get it to where it is today at Tier 7.

If the Cossack was historically an inferior ship to Haida, lets add Radar..yay!

 

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Haida may be an "Improved" Tribal, but, as often happens in this game, real life improvements are in game nerfs, or vice versa.

A 25% increase over Haida's already excellent firepower is an excellent start, and there are other slight tweaks that can be made.

 

Matt

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Just now, mobryan said:

Haida may be an "Improved" Tribal, but, as often happens in this game, real life improvements are in game nerfs, or vice versa.

A 25% increase over Haida's already excellent firepower is an excellent start, and there are other slight tweaks that can be made.

 

Matt

That's a boringly reasonable reply, can't have that.

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20 minutes ago, RightYouAreKen said:

1408089061725

There are 50 there, I counted.  Gimme Cossack pls.

top kek for posting an image of two Guinea Pigs doing it. 10/10 :P

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16 minutes ago, Gerbertz said:

The development of the Haida was faar from smooth.  They really struggled to get it to where it is today at Tier 7.

If the Cossack was historically an inferior ship to Haida, lets add Radar..yay!

 

I wouldn't say it was an inferior ship, the RN Tribals were pure gun boats designed to take on other destroyers while the Canadian ships were more balanced vessels and were geared more towards ASW work.

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8 minutes ago, DarthZeppelin said:

in summary, they added a turret, from 3x2 to 4x2. (Which, historically speaking, is a downgrade - confusing right?)

turret traverse buff too.

 

Ummm Edinburgh is a t8 with an earlier fit than Belfast at t7.... 

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3 minutes ago, Monty9185 said:

I wouldn't say it was an inferior ship, the RN Tribals were pure gun boats designed to take on other destroyers while the Canadian ships were more balanced vessels and were geared more towards ASW work.

The early RN Tribals were most definitely inferior, in terms of build quality, general sea keeping, bathroom fittings and sensor suites. Nobody would argue otherwise, seriously.

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One of Cossack's primary advantages should have been the concealment module, making Haida's already over-buffed stealth even better.

Unfortunately (fortunately really) WG realized that a 5.1km concealment gunboat destroyer was a bit excessive given say, Kagero exists. Therefore she got slapped with an arbitrary stealth nerf and now manages 5.5 to Haida's 5.7. Not great for the same hull with concealment module.

Her 4th main battery turret is a big plus, especially with good angles. Her shells are also different doing 1,700/8% fire instead of 1,900/5% fire. At T8 - by which I mean T10 - that's probably an advantage. Even with IFHE Cossack can't penetrate the T8+ battleships or USN/KM heavy cruisers (the most popular cruisers at those tiers...) while IFHE doesn't help against RN CL either. You pen DD fine without IFHE.

Overall, better to have the fire chance than the alpha. The problem is in T10 games you'll end up unable to hurt half the ships with your main guns, it's world of radar too and you don't have the shell arcs or speed to long-range gunboat.

For reasons unknown Haida gets the T8 RN hydro, so Cossack has no advantage there.

Overall she seems a niche destroyer hunter.

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5 minutes ago, DarthZeppelin said:

The early RN Tribals were most definitely inferior, in terms of build quality, general sea keeping, bathroom fittings and sensor suites. Nobody would argue otherwise, seriously.

Most of which in game makes little difference in game, plus the surviving RN tribals received radar equipment on par with the RCN versions.

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10 minutes ago, mofton said:

One of Cossack's primary advantages should have been the concealment module, making Haida's already over-buffed stealth even better.

Unfortunately (fortunately really) WG realized that a 5.1km concealment gunboat destroyer was a bit excessive given say, Kagero exists. Therefore she got slapped with an arbitrary stealth nerf and now manages 5.5 to Haida's 5.7. Not great for the same hull with concealment module.

Her 4th main battery turret is a big plus, especially with good angles. Her shells are also different doing 1,700/8% fire instead of 1,900/5% fire. At T8 - by which I mean T10 - that's probably an advantage. Even with IFHE Cossack can't penetrate the T8+ battleships or USN/KM heavy cruisers (the most popular cruisers at those tiers...) while IFHE doesn't help against RN CL either. You pen DD fine without IFHE.

Overall, better to have the fire chance than the alpha. The problem is in T10 games you'll end up unable to hurt half the ships with your main guns, it's world of radar too and you don't have the shell arcs or speed to long-range gunboat.

For reasons unknown Haida gets the T8 RN hydro, so Cossack has no advantage there.

Overall she seems a niche destroyer hunter.

Quality explanation, thankyou. I have mixed feelings reading this.

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8 minutes ago, Monty9185 said:

Most of which in game makes little difference in game, plus the surviving RN tribals received radar equipment on par with the RCN versions.

And lost a turret for added AA=Haida. I assume weak AA will be one of the balancing points which MAY make a difference if CVs make a huge comeback.

 

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1 hour ago, DarthZeppelin said:

HMS Cossack, has now been offically announced, and priced as part of the upcoming British dd mission arc. 9600 doublons/50 guineas.

price.PNG.477cfbcfa410fb63a17483c91fb103b5.PNG

She is to be released as a tier 8, which makes me curious on 2 counts.

a) How will they make Cossack a viable t8, when her improved sister ship, Haida, struggled to find a satisfactory spot in tier 7?

b) HMS Cossack is still absent from the Wiki (maybe the Wiki team can shed some light on this), even though, HMS Lightening, the tech tree t8  dd, is already present.

We need answers!

 

a.)  Differences between Haida and Cossack (WiP):

  • Cossack has 8-guns to Haida's 6-guns.
  • Cossack's HE has an 8% fire chance to Haida's 5%
  • Cossack's HE does 1,700 damage per shell instead of Haida's 1,900 damage.
  • Cossack uses HMS Daring's tier X torpedoes (10km range, nearly 16k damage warhead) with the same reload timer.
  • Cossack has a British destroyer's engine power, losing only 2.5% of max speed in a turn compared to 17.5% for Haida. Cossack still has access to the Engine Boost consumable unlike other British DDs.
  • Cossack has a marginally improved surface detection over Haida, getting her concealment down to 5.48km vs Haida's 5.67km.
  • Cossack uses a Royal Navy destroyer Smoke Generator (short emission time, short duration, short reset timer, many charges).
  • Cossack has almost no AA power.

Cossack is more of a generalist destroyer compared to Haida which is a specialized destroyer hunter.

b.)  http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Cossack

Edit:  I'm sitting on an almost completed review of Cossack.  I'm waiting for Wargaming to confirm any changes that may have occurred since I last had access before publishing.  If changes have occurred, this will inevitably delay publication of my review.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
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22 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

a.)  Differences between Haida and Cossack (WiP):

  • Cossack has 8-guns to Haida's 6-guns.
  • Cossack's HE has an 8% fire chance to Haida's 5%
  • Cossack's HE does 1,700 damage per shell instead of Haida's 1,900 damage.
  • Cossack uses HMS Daring's tier X torpedoes (10km range, nearly 16k damage warhead) with the same reload timer.
  • Cossack has a British destroyer's engine power, losing only 2.5% of max speed in a turn compared to 17.5% for Haida. Cossack still has access to the Engine Boost consumable unlike other British DDs.
  • Cossack has a marginally improved surface detection over Haida, getting her concealment down to 5.48km vs Haida's 5.67km.
  • Cossack uses a Royal Navy destroyer Smoke Generator (short emission time, short duration, short reset timer, many charges).
  • Cossack has almost no AA power.

Cossack is more of a generalist destroyer compared to Haida which is a specialized destroyer hunter.

b.)  http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Cossack

Cossack's guns have had a HE nerf? At least we can have a nice little argument about that. The rest is once again far too reasonable and unexciting, nerfing my efforts at stoking the flames of speculation. 

as for b) Cossack may be in the wiki, but no way of finding it without a direct web address to the article, as it doesn't appear in the list of UK dds here http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Ships_of_U.K..

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51 minutes ago, mobryan said:

Haida may be an "Improved" Tribal, but, as often happens in this game, real life improvements are in game nerfs, or vice versa.

A 25% increase over Haida's already excellent firepower is an excellent start, and there are other slight tweaks that can be made.

 

Matt

One little thing though. The HE alpha on Haida is 1900 vs 1700 on Cossack. So that does make a huge difference in terms of gun power. 

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21 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Edit:  I'm sitting on an almost completed review of Cossack.  I'm waiting for Wargaming to confirm any changes that may have occurred since I last had access before publishing.  If changes have occurred, this will inevitably delay publication of my review.

 looking forward to the review, this will be the first t8 premium dd unlockable via a mission arc, won't it?

 

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14 minutes ago, DarthZeppelin said:

Cossack's guns have had a HE nerf? At least we can have a nice little argument about that.

1,700 is the baseline damage for the 120mm gun. Look at any other ship with 120mm guns and they'll all have 1,700 as the max HE shell damage. It was Haida that was buffed to 1,900 at the cost of reduced fire chance (5% Vs 8%).

14 minutes ago, DarthZeppelin said:

as for b) Cossack may be in the wiki, but no way of finding it without a direct web address to the article, as it doesn't appear in the list of UK dds here http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Ships_of_U.K..

I can literally see it right there between Lightning and Jutland.

 

 

Edited by Noble_Taipan

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12 minutes ago, DarthZeppelin said:

Cossack's guns have had a HE nerf? At least we can have a nice little argument about that. The rest is once again far too reasonable and unexciting, nerfing my efforts at stoking the flames of speculation. 

Cossack's guns didn't have an HE nerf.  Cossack's guns are identical to other Royal Navy 120mm/45s found in the game such as on Jervis (WiP) and Gadjah Mada.  Haida had her guns tweaked to make her better at doing direct damage to targets but worse at setting fires.

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