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Sammy_Small

List of Ships Vulnerable to AP Dive Bombers

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Original post ( Caution wall of text )

Spoiler


There is a bit of "mystery", "voodoo" and "tribal knowledge" involved with how AP Dive Bombers work. So after looking at a "couple" CV videos and armor schemes of the ships that got "deleted" in the said videos.
I have a theory, if a ship has less then 50mm deck armor and between 60~100mm of citadel roof armor and no intermediate deck it will get their citadel "Nuked".

IJN: Fuso, Nagato,  Amagi , Zao*, Aobaº, Myokoº,  Mogamiº

USN: New York, Colorado, Baltimore, Buffalo, Des Moines, Seattle, Worcester, Alaska**

VMF: Kronshtadt, Moskva, Stalingrad**.

KM: Gneisennau / Schanrnhorst, Bismarck / Tirpitz

RN: Queen Elisabeth / Warspite, Hood***, Nelson*

MN: Algerie, Charles Martel, Saint-Louis, Henri IV

RM: Roma***

It would be nice to have actual AP bomb mechanics posted somewhere on the official wiki page, instead of guesstimates, trial and error. 

* Zao and depends which part of the citadel the bombs land, same for Nelson.

** NY and CO are theoretical get "Deleted". Alaska's horizontal armor scheme will probably be similar to Buffalo, just like Stalingrad's horizontal armor is similar to Moskva's

*** Hood and Roma both have has over 100mm citadel roof, but they can get their citadel  "Nuked", so I am not entirely sure what is going on with AP bombs there. (Correction Hood has 51mm deck and parts of a Citadel roof 38-76mm)

º IJN T6-T8 are over pens or citadels and very few pens, T9 Ibuki seems to be immune to USN AP.

Tested:
Amagi is immune to AP bombs like the North Carolina.
Donskoi and Hindenburg, they do take an occasional citadel, but no consistently like the other T9-T10 cruisers.
Cleveland is practically impossible to citadel with AP .

(P.S. if i missed any ships, or made mistakes, please add to the limited pool of knowledge )


Revised post:

Spoiler

♦ "Rekt" (3~5 drops / squadrons to kill a target )
New York, Colorado, Baltimore, Zao, Kongo, Fuso, Nagato, Queen Elisabeth / Warspite, FDG, Kronshtadt*(see New York)

♦ "Not Rekt" / "Rekt" (Better pray to RNGessus for citadels otherwise you may run out of planes,)
Donskoi, Hindenburg, Aoba, Myoko, Mogami, Ibuki, Minotaur, Bayern.

♦ "Tyrannosaurus Rekt" (2~3 drops / squadrons )
Algerie, Charles Martel, Saint-Louis, Henri IV, Gneisennau / Schanrnhorst, Bismarck / Tirpitz,  Buffalo, Des Moines, Seattle, Worcester, Moskva, Stalingrad*(see Moskva)

♦ Probably "Rekt" ( Gestimates made looking at armor scheme )
Texas*(see New York?), Hood, Roma, Nelson?(see FDG or Izumo), Alaska*(see Buffalo?) Dunkirk?(haven't looked at the armor)


P.S.( If your ship is on that list, you better have Defensive AA or mash the F6 key "like it owns you money" when you see AP dive bombers )

Explanation and Testing:

Spoiler

To satisfy my curiosity, I used Free XP to get Lexington ( already had a Ranger, no big loss) to test and refine my theory. (I would like to figure this out before I take it to play in randoms)
USN AP bombs have minimum arming threshold of approximately 2.5 ~ 3  inches or 65 ~ 76mm.
Maximum penetration of approximately just under 6 inches or less then 150mm, with a very short fuse time of approximately 0.1 0.33 seconds.
How did I come up with those numbers?   In the training room I dropped on: Donskoi, Baltimore, Zao, New York, New Mexico, Colorado, F. Der Grosse,  and Grosse Kurfurst:

♦ Donskoi took mostly over pens, with random citadel hits that i suspect come from turret hits. It has 25mm deck and 60mm citadel roof
♦ Baltimore and Zao both have 65 mm on parts of citadel roof and 27 / 25 ~ 30mm deck respectivly. Typically 1 or 2 citadels on every drop
♦ New York and Colorado get their citadel "rekt" consistently on every drop. They have 89 to 120mm roof on casemate armor and that space is rather "short"/ "shallow". Citadel roof is a token 25 to 38 mm ( Kronshtadt has similar armor)
♦ New Mexico only takes penetration damage and no citadel damage. It has 140mm roof casemate armor and is slightly "taller" / "deeper" then Colorado. Citadel roof is 70 mm
♦ FDG takes a 1 or 2 citadles every drop, probably in a mid-section where it only has 50mm deck and 100mm citadel roof.
♦ GK doesn't take any citadel damage and has 50mm deck and 150mm citadel roof.

I did some more testing on Izumo, Kongo and Hiryu.
♦ Izumo has a "patch" of 127mm roof on its casemaet armor and 38mm citadel roof, but does NOT take citadel damage. I suspect it is due to its "turtle back" being ~254mm?
♦ Kongo... gets "rekt" by AP bombs. Why am I "testing" a T5 BB? What if one "division fails" into a T8 CV match?
♦ Hiryu has 67mm "strength deck" and 25~51mm citadel roof, but unlike the New York or Colorado, there is a lot of space between the two. Only 1 out of 6 bombs finds a citadel on every drop, the rest over penetrate.
That means my estimate on "fuse" time was incorrect, it is probably 0.33 seconds and if armor is between 65 and 80mm it is literally a "dice roll", on how many bombs will arm.

I did some more tests...... :cap_haloween:on Neptune, Minotaur, Cleveland, Ibuki.

♦ Neptune practically immune to citadels, out of 33 bombs hits only got 1 citadel and majority were over-penetrations. Not worth the time or planes.
♦ Cleveland practically immune to citadels, out of 18 bombs hits only got1 citadel and majority were over-penetrations. Not worth the time or planes.
♦ I would like to make correction to Ibuki, it is not immune to citadels, it just like the Aoba, Myoko and Mogami. I suspect the bombs arm on the forward citadel bulkhead
♦ Minotaur, no sane CV will have his planes within 7~9km of it, but it can be ciatdeled by AP bombs. :cap_wander_2:
Tested more the a few times, out of ~30 bomb hits got 2~4 citadel hits the rest were over penetrations.  :cap_wander:
Do the AP bombs arm on forward citadel bulkhead? Turret faces? Having premium time active gives you better RNG? :Smile_hiding:

I have witnessed a Bayern getting AP deleted by a Graf Zeppelin, which got me thinking... :cap_look:
Top of the turrets are only 100~120mm and we know what that means.:Smile_facepalm:

 

Edited by Sammy_Small
Post Script, Hood Armor, Nelson, IJN low tier cruisers, Revised for clarity, More Tests
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Funny how small the selection of battleships is. WG is really good at trying to curb BB pop and just screwing over cruisers more.

WG: We've created a mechanic for Aircraft to punish camping and overextended battleships by means of armor piercing dive bombers.

Also WG: Makes most cruisers extremely vulnerable to AP bombs.

Also also WG: We've made a mechanic that allows destroyers to kill battleships with more efficiency due to the low detection time of deep water torpedoes.

Also also also WG: Makes DWT hit cruisers.

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All ships are vulnerable to AP bombs, if they hit. But that is a big if, for many ships in that list. (Try getting a squadron of AP dive bopmbers through Worcester's DFAA, intact, and get sufficient bombs to hit the target, to obtain a useful result. outside of a training room, frankly rare.)

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8 hours ago, Sammy_Small said:

There is a bit of "mystery", "voodoo" and "tribal knowledge" involved with how AP Dive Bombers work. So after looking at a "couple" CV videos and armor schemes of the ships that got "deleted" in the said videos.
I have a theory, if a ship has less then 50mm deck armor and between 60~100mm of citadel roof armor and no intermediate deck it will get their citadel "Nuked".

IJN: Fuso, Nagato, Amagi, Zao*

USN: New York**, Colorado**, Baltimore, Buffalo, Des Moines, Seattle, Worcester, Alaska**

VMF: Kronshtadt, Moskva, Stalingrad**.

KM: Gneisennau / Schanrnhorst, Bismarck / Tirpitz

RN: Queen Elisabeth / Warspite, Hood***

MN: Algerie, Charles Martel, Saint-Louis, Henri IV

RM: Roma***

It would be nice to have actual AP bomb mechanics posted somewhere on the official wiki page, instead of guesstimates, trial and error. 

* Zao depends which part of the citadel the bombs land

** NY and CO are theoretical. Alaska's horizontal armor scheme will probably be similar to Buffalo, just like Stalingrad's horizontal armor is similar to Moskva's

*** Hood and Roma both have over 100mm citadel roof, but they can get their citadel  "Nuked", so I am not entirely sure what is going on with AP bombs there.

(P.S. if i missed any ships, or made mistakes, please add to the limited pool of knowledge )

Does this list take into account AA or simply hull armor design and strength? Because AA onnships like Missouri could easily enough intercept enough AP bombers to render to odds of scoring a hit through the deck rather low?

And thank you for working on such a list since it is rather useful. +1

Also I think Graf Spee may be vulnerable to AP bombs, but not entirely sure so that will need to be tested to confirm that.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

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7 hours ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Funny how small the selection of battleships is. WG is really good at trying to curb BB pop and just screwing over cruisers more.

WG: We've created a mechanic for Aircraft to punish camping and overextended battleships by means of armor piercing dive bombers.

Also WG: Makes most cruisers extremely vulnerable to AP bombs.

Also also WG: We've made a mechanic that allows destroyers to kill battleships with more efficiency due to the low detection time of deep water torpedoes.

Also also also WG: Makes DWT hit cruisers.

And actually if you have a German BB trying to be a team player and escort allied ships attempting to capture a base on the from lines and with good escorts, the AP Bombers on Graf Zeppelin on particular often punish the BB severely by managing to slide in through AA escorts. So good team play can get shattered by the loss of their escorting BB or BBs since even if the AP bombs don’t immediately kill the BBs, they are usually left barely alive and either die within the next minute or so so, or if they are lucky they are able to retreat and save the points of their death for their team, but will be out of the fight none the less.

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9 hours ago, monpetitloup said:

Add donsk to he list as well as hindy

I was under the impression that those 2 ships, especially Hindenburg, don't have enough horizontal armor to arm the fuses on AP bombs so they over pen most of the time. Unless the RNGessus wills it that you hit the tops of their turrets that have 80mm of armor and count as a part of a citadel.

 

2 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Does this list take into account AA or simply hull armor design and strength? Because AA onnships like Missouri could easily enough intercept enough AP bombers to render to odds of scoring a hit through the deck rather low?

And thank you for working on such a list since it is rather useful. +1

Also I think Graf Spee may be vulnerable to AP bombs, but not entirely sure so that will need to be tested to confirm that.


Simply armor model, and ships like the Iowa / Missouri and Montana that had their citadel lowered, still* retain their "old" citadel roof armor thickness of 120~150+mm**  that is counted as a "strength" / "splinter" deck that is not displayed. The strong points of USN BBs are AA and Horizontal Armor. 

Added  Nelson as a possible , that 95mm section of a citadel roof may be vulnerable to AP bombs, but that area is less then 1/4 of a ship, better pray to RNGessus.
Added correction to Hood.

still* -  one would hope that WG didn't give USN "well decks" instead of citadels.
120~150+mm** - i don't exactly remember, but it was "thick".

Edited by Sammy_Small
P.S.

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AP bombs can cit all t7- BBs except KGV and Lyon.

They can only cit T8,9,10 german BBs

They can cit ALL t10 and t9 cruisers.

They can cit most t8 cruisers(not edinburgh or chapayev, iirc)

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4 hours ago, Sammy_Small said:

I was under the impression that those 2 ships, especially Hindenburg, don't have enough horizontal armor to arm the fuses on AP bombs so they over pen most of the time. Unless the RNGessus wills it that you hit the tops of their turrets that have 80mm of armor and count as a part of a citadel.

 


Simply armor model, and ships like the Iowa / Missouri and Montana that had their citadel lowered, still* retain their "old" citadel roof armor thickness of 120~150+mm**  that is counted as a "strength" / "splinter" deck that is not displayed. The strong points of USN BBs are AA and Horizontal Armor. 

Added  Nelson as a possible , that 95mm section of a citadel roof may be vulnerable to AP bombs, but that area is less then 1/4 of a ship, better pray to RNGessus.
Added correction to Hood.

still* -  one would hope that WG didn't give USN "well decks" instead of citadels.
120~150+mm** - i don't exactly remember, but it was "thick".

Ive gotten/seen both get rekt by graffs wielding ap bombs.

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1 hour ago, monpetitloup said:

Ive gotten/seen both get rekt by graffs wielding ap bombs.


Graf Zeppelin dive bombers don't have to citadel a ship to wreck it. Their drop pattern is small enough to drop on bow or stern of a battleship for massive penetration damage,  or GZ AP bombs have even more pen then USN ones.

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7 hours ago, Sammy_Small said:


Graf Zeppelin dive bombers don't have to citadel a ship to wreck it. Their drop pattern is small enough to drop on bow or stern of a battleship for massive penetration damage,  or GZ AP bombs have even more pen then USN ones.

Exactly, yesterday i saw a graf dev strike a full health monarch (first blood) with ap bombers. If pen damage alone can do this who cares if it may not technically have been cits?

Edited by monpetitloup

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From personal experience of bombing ships with GZ AP, vulnerability depends on the following :

Passive AA defences

Active AA defences

Deck and citadel armour

Immobile/sailing straight or manouvreing target

Dmg saturation (perhaps)

My state of mind - can I concentrate and manual drop, or do I risk an auto drop?

----

Taking into account the above, ALL ships are vulnerable where target armour is sufficient to arm the AP bomb fuzes (65mm+).

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WoWs created these super bombs... and now wants to fix it by screwing with ALL the ships....

 

typical... they create the mess and the players suffer.

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I probably should have structured the list differently, some thing along the lines:
 

Spoiler

♦ "Rekt" (3~5 drops / squadrons to kill a target)
New York, Colorado, Baltimore, Zao, Fuso, Nagato, Queen Elisabeth / Warspite, FDG, Kronshtadt*(see New York)

♦ "Not Rekt" / "Rekt" (Better pray to RNGessus for citadels otherwise you may run out of planes)
Donskoi, Hindenburg, Aoba, Myoko, Mogami.

♦ "Tyrannosaurus Rekt" (2~3 drops / squadrons)
Algerie, Charles Martel, Saint-Louis, Henri IV, Gneisennau / Schanrnhorst, Bismarck / Tirpitz,  Buffalo, Des Moines, Seattle, Worcester, Moskva, Stalingrad*(see Moskva)

♦ Probably "Rekt" ( Gestimates made looking at armor scheme )
Texas*(see New York?), Hood, Roma, Nelson*(see FDG), Alaska*(see Buffalo?) Dunkirk*(haven't looked at the armor)


To satisfy my curiosity, I used Free XP to get Lexington ( already had a Ranger, no big loss) to test and refine my theory. (I would like to figure this out before I take it to play in randoms)
USN AP bombs have minimum arming threshold of approximately 2.5 ~ 3  inches or 65 ~ 76mm.
Maximum penetration of approximately just under 6 inches or less then 150mm, with a very short fuse time of approximately 0.1s.
How did I come up with those numbers?   In the training room I dropped on: Donskoi, Baltimore, Zao, New York, New Mexico, Colorado, F. Der Grosse,  and Grosse Kurfurst:

♦ Donskoi took mostly over pens, with random citadel hits that i suspect come from turret hits. It has 25mm deck and 60mm citadel roof
♦ Baltimore and Zao both have 65 mm on parts of citadel roof and 27 / 25 ~ 30mm deck respectivly. Typically 1 or 2 citadels on every drop
♦ New York and Colorado get their citadel "rekt" consistently on every drop. They have 89 to 120mm roof on casemate armor and that space is rather "short"/ "shallow". Citadel roof is a token 25 to 38 mm ( Kronshtadt has similar armor)
♦ New Mexico only takes penetration damage and no citadel damage. It has 140mm roof casemate armor and is slightly "taller" / "deeper" then Colorado. Citadel roof is 70 mm
♦ FDG takes a 1 or 2 citadles every drop, probably in a mid-section where it only has 50mm deck and 100mm citadel roof.
♦ GK doesn't take any citadel damage and has 50mm deck and 150mm citadel roof.

P.S.( If your ship is on that list, you better have Defensive AA or mash the F6 key "like it owns you money" when you see AP dive bombers )

Edited by Sammy_Small
P.S.

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I did some more testing on Izumo, Kongo and Hiryu.
♦ Izumo has a "patch" of 127mm roof on its casemaet armor and 38mm citadel roof, but does NOT take citadel damage. I suspect it is due to its "turtle back" being ~254mm?
♦ Kongo... gets "rekt" by AP bombs. Why am I "testing" a T5 BB? What if one "division fails" into a T8 CV match?
♦ Hiryu has 67mm "strength deck" and 25~51mm citadel roof, but unlike the New York or Colorado, there is a lot of space between the two. Only 1 out of 6 bombs finds a citadel on every drop, the rest over penetrate.
That means my estimate on "fuse" time was incorrect, it is probably 0.33 seconds and if armor is between 65 and 80mm it is literally  a "dice roll", on how many bombs will arm.

Annotations and corrections will be made to the 1st post.

Edited by Sammy_Small

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I did some more tests...... :cap_haloween:on Neptune, Minotaur, Cleveland, Ibuki.

♦ Neptune practically immune to citadels, out of 33 bombs hits only got 1 citadel and majority were over-penetrations. Not worth the time or planes.
♦ Cleveland practically immune to citadels, out of 18 bombs hits only got1 citadel and majority were over-penetrations. Not worth the time or planes.
♦ I would like to make correction to Ibuki, it is not immune to citadels, it just like the Aoba, Myoko and Mogami. I suspect the bombs arm on the forward citadel bulkhead
♦ Minotaur, no sane CV will have his planes within 7~9km of it, but it can be ciatdeled by AP bombs. :cap_wander_2:
Tested more the a few times, out of ~30 bomb hits got 2~4 citadel hits the rest were over penetrations.  :cap_wander:
Do the AP bombs arm on forward citadel bulkhead? Turret faces? Having premium time active gives you better RNG? :Smile_hiding:


Additions will be made to the 1st post.

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