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LittleWhiteMouse

Dmitri Donskoi's Turning Radius is WRONG

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This isn't the first time I've brought this up, but let's do it again:  Dmitri Donskoi has the wrong turning radius value listed in port.

The Soviet cruiser line has a history of having the incorrect turning radii listed in port.  They advertise as being far more agile than the ships actually are.  This was largely corrected in patch 0.7.6 released in late June of 2018.  Dmitri Donskoi originally had a turning radius listed in port as 760m.  It was patched to read 870m, but this value is still incorrect and still missing the mark of how wide this ship turns.  Here's how I know this:

8HIuAeg.gif
This is Chapayev (piloted by Lert) leading Dmitri Donskoi (me) in a turn.  We both began our turn on the navigation buoy second from the right.  You'll note that Dmitri Donskoi's turning circle overlaps that of Chapayev on the bottom right portion of the turn almost perfectly.  However, towards the left hand side, it stretches out noticeably.

DTE5N3u.jpg
This becomes clearer when you composite the animation frames.

J3dQL82.jpg
Respective turning circles highlighted with Chapayev in blue, Donskoi in red.

Now we can math out just how big these turning radius of each ship is by using information provided within the client.  The turning speed of each ship is constant after they finish decelerating.  Chapayev turns at 26.8kts out of her 33.5kt maximum speed.  Dmitri Donskoi turns at 28.7kts of her 36.0kt maximum speed.  You'll note that both cruisers turn at ~80% of their maximum speed -- this is normal for cruisers and it's repeated for almost every cruiser in the game with a few notable exceptions.  Getting these values is repeatable each time this experiment is run.

Next, we simply need to time how long it takes one of these ships to come about 360º.  Setting up the experiment is easy.  We run the ship up to its maximum speed.  Once this is achieved, we put the rudder hard over and let the ship decelerate to its stable turning speed.  From here, with a zoomed out view, aim your camera at some far off point, like so:

3n3dYl2.jpg
Mission Start.  Timer has begun on this 360º rotation.

1.)  Make sure your ship's turning speed has stabilized.  In Donskoi's case, that's 28.7 knots.  It can take a while for the ship to finish slowing down.
2.)  Ensure that your rudder stays hard over.  I use a double tap of the E key to keep mine hard over to starboard.
3.)  You're going to use centerline of your vision cone as your reference marker for starting & completing your 360º turn.
4.)  I use a stopwatch, but you can use the in game clock as a reference for timing your turn.  Recording software can make you even more precise.

ahgRR3s.jpg
Lap complete.  7:12 to 5:53 or approximately 79s by the in game clock.  Using a stopwatch, I have a current average of 78.36s after dozens of attempts at timing Donskoi's turn.

Math time.  We now have the ship's speed and the amount of time it spent turning.  This will give us the circumference of the turning circle.  From there, we can calculate the radius. 

  • Circumference = Ship Speed * Time
  • Circumference = (28.7kts) * (79s)

    Now let's convert knots to meters per second:
  • Circumference = (28.7kts / 1.943844) * 79s
  • Circumference =  (14.765) * 79s
  • Circumference = 1,166.4m

To get the radius, we divided this by 2π.

  • 1,166.4m / 2π = 185.6m

Whoa, hold the phone!  That's one tiny radius!  What's going on!?  Well, this is expected.  World of Warships has a compressed distance.  According to Sub_Octavian, this value is 5.22x.  This means that 1m visually in game represents 5.22m in real life for the purposes of distances traveled.  So we need to multiply our 185.6m by 5.22 to get the in port value.

  • 185.6m * 5.22 = 968.8m

Now let's account for errors in measurement.  Let's assume that the speedometer in game is off by +/- 0.1kts.  We'll also assume our ability to accurately record time is off by +/- 1.0s.  We can plug these all back into our formula and come up with a variance between 953.4m and 984.7m -- or 950m to 980m given how Wargaming rounds things up for the turning radius stat.  This means that when checking for accuracy of turning radii versus those found in port, a deviance of +/- 10m to as much as +/- 20m shouldn't be anything to concern ourselves with.  However, Dmitri Donskoi's lies far outside this.

In fact, we can reverse engineer how Dmitri Donskoi should be performing in order to conform to the 870m turning radius that Wargaming attributes to her.  We know her turning speed -- 28.7kts.  We know the radius she's supposed to have of 870m.  Now let's find the time:

  • Time = Circumference / Ship Speed
  • Time = (870m * 2π) / (28.7kts)

Let's not forget our conversions for compression and kts to m/s.

  • Time = [(870/5.22) * 2π] / [(28.7 / 1.943844)]
  • Time = (~523.6) / (~14.8)
  • Time = ~71s

Shaving off a full 8s worth of turn time is easily noticeable.  For Dmitri Donskoi to have the 870m turning radius in port, this would have to buff her rate of turn considerably from the current 4.6º/s up to 5.0º/s which is quite significant!  Note that Dmitri Donskoi is the only cruiser I've found (aside from the Royal Navy cruisers) that deviates in this manner.

Alternatively we can assume that the time is correct and so is the radius but the speed listed in game is wrong.

  • Speed = Circumference / Time
  • Speed = (870m * 2π) / (79s)
  • Speed = [(870m/5.22) * 2π] / 79s
  • Speed = 13.26m/s

Let's convert back to knots:

  • Speed = 13.26m/s * 1.943844
  • Speed = 25.8kts

Finally, we can divide this value by 0.8 (the nominal deceleration for a cruiser) to determine what Dmitri Donskoi's maximum speed would have to be for this value to be correct.

  • Top Speed = 25.8kts / 0.8
  • Top Speed = 32.25kts

This isn't a small margin of error.  It's possible that Wargaming is inputting a  top speed of 32.0 to 32.5kts into their formula when assuming Dmitri Donskoi's straight line top speed.    At 0.8x, this would give a speed of 25.6kts to 26kts which is close enough to generate the numbers they're insisting upon.  This what I assume to be the most likely case given that the Soviet Cruiser line was accosted by a bunch of earlier copy and paste errors which had Dmitri Donskoi and Moskva listed with a 760m (!) turning radius previously.

Here's some examples I've timed and measured, including some battleships, destroyers and aircraft carriers. I have literally well over a hundred results like this.  You can math them out yourself, if you'd like:

Ship Name Turn Speed 360º
Turn Time
Radius Listed
in Port
Calculated
Radius*
Gascogne 23.9kts 82.4s 850m 840m
Richelieu 24.1kts 82.3s 850m 850m
Alsace 24.1kts 88.0s 910m 910m
Yorck 25.5kts 60.3s 650m 660m
Myoko 27.8kts 65.7s 780m 780m
Shchors 28.3kts 73.4s 900m 890m
Chapayev 26.8kts 78.4s 890m 900m
Tachibana 25.5kts 41.5s 450m 450m
Minsk 36.2kts 44.5s 690m 690m
Shiratsuyu 28.5kts 47.3 590m 590m
St.Louis 17.8kts 58.9s 450m 450m
Kaga 18.8kts 134.6s 1080m 1080m

* Rounded to the nearest 10m.
See?  Chapayev conforms.  It's Donskoi that's weird.

Special thanks to Lert for helping collect some of the vast number of turn times I have archived.  We're almost halfway done timing the whole game now!

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
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Mouse... Get up walk to the kitchen get a wine glass pour a nice one sit down and relax with a good anime...You've done enough hard work on this for today! 

Edited by Jim_Byrnes
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Never post right after I do Miss Mouse, now no one will even look at mine. You put much more time into yours than I did, I guess it's only fair.

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1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

This isn't the first time I've brought this up, but let's do it again:  Dmitri Donskoi has the wrong turning radius value listed in port.

The Soviet cruiser line has a history of having the incorrect turning radii listed in port.  They advertise as being far more agile than the ships actually are.  This was largely corrected in patch 0.7.6 released in late June of 2018.  Dmitri Donskoi originally had a turning radius listed in port as 760m.  It was patched to read 870m, but this value is still incorrect and still missing the mark of how wide this ship turns.  Here's how I know this:

8HIuAeg.gif
This is Chapayev (piloted by Lert) leading Dmitri Donskoi (me) in a turn.  We both began our turn on the navigation buoy second from the right.  You'll note that Dmitri Donskoi's turning circle overlaps that of Chapayev on the bottom right portion of the turn almost perfectly.  However, towards the left hand side, it stretches out noticeably.

DTE5N3u.jpg
This becomes clearer when you composite the animation frames.

J3dQL82.jpg
Respective turning circles highlighted with Chapayev in blue, Donskoi in red.

Now we can math out just how big these turning radius of each ship is by using information provided within the client.  The turning speed of each ship is constant after they finish decelerating.  Chapayev turns at 26.8kts out of her 33.5kt maximum speed.  Dmitri Donskoi turns at 28.7kts of her 36.0kt maximum speed.  You'll note that both cruisers turn at ~80% of their maximum speed -- this is normal for cruisers and it's repeated for almost every cruiser in the game with a few notable exceptions.  Getting these values is repeatable each time this experiment is run.

Next, we simply need to time how long it takes one of these ships to come about 360º.  Setting up the experiment is easy.  We run the ship up to its maximum speed.  Once this is achieved, we put the rudder hard over and let the ship decelerate to its stable turning speed.  From here, with a zoomed out view, aim your camera at some far off point, like so:

3n3dYl2.jpg
Mission Start.  Timer has begun on this 360º rotation.

1.)  Make sure your ship's turning speed has stabilized.  In Donskoi's case, that's 28.7 knots.  It can take a while for the ship to finish slowing down.
2.)  Ensure that your rudder stays hard over.  I use a double tap of the E key to keep mine hard over to starboard.
3.)  You're going to use centerline of your vision cone as your reference marker for starting & completing your 360º turn.
4.)  I use a stopwatch, but you can use the in game clock as a reference for timing your turn.  Recording software can make you even more precise.

ahgRR3s.jpg
Lap complete.  7:12 to 5:53 or approximately 79s by the in game clock.  Using a stopwatch, I have a current average of 78.36s after dozens of attempts at timing Donskoi's turn.

Math time.  We now have the ship's speed and the amount of time it spent turning.  This will give us the circumference of the turning circle.  From there, we can calculate the radius. 

  • Circumference = Ship Speed * Time
  • Circumference = (28.7kts) * (79s)

    Now let's convert knots to meters per second:
  • Circumference = (28.7kts / 1.943844) * 79s
  • Circumference =  (14.765) * 79s
  • Circumference = 1,166.4m

To get the radius, we divided this by 2π.

  • 1,166.4m / 2π = 185.6m

Whoa, hold the phone!  That's one tiny radius!  What's going on!?  Well, this is expected.  World of Warships has a compressed distance.  According to Sub_Octavian, this value is 5.22x.  This means that 1m visually in game represents 5.22m in real life for the purposes of distances traveled.  So we need to multiply our 185.6m by 5.22 to get the in port value.

  • 185.6m * 5.22 = 968.8m

Now let's account for errors in measurement.  Let's assume that the speedometer in game is off by +/- 0.1kts.  We'll also assume our ability to accurately record time is off by +/- 1.0s.  We can plug these all back into our formula and come up with a variance between 953.4m and 984.7m -- or 950m to 980m given how Wargaming rounds things up for the turning radius stat.  This means that when checking for accuracy of turning radii versus those found in port, a deviance of +/- 10m to as much as +/- 20m shouldn't be anything to concern ourselves with.  However, Dmitri Donskoi's lies far outside this.

In fact, we can reverse engineer how Dmitri Donskoi should be performing in order to conform to the 870m turning radius that Wargaming attributes to her.  We know her turning speed -- 28.7kts.  We know the radius she's supposed to have of 870m.  Now let's find the time:

  • Time = Circumference / Ship Speed
  • Time = (870m * 2π) / (28.7kts)

Let's not forget our conversions for compression and kts to m/s.

  • Time = [(870/5.22) * 2π] / [(28.7 / 1.943844)]
  • Time = (~523.6) / (~14.8)
  • Time = ~71s

Shaving off a full 8s worth of turn time is easily noticeable.  For Dmitri Donskoi to have the 870m turning radius in port, this would have to buff her rate of turn considerably from the current 4.6º/s up to 5.0º/s which is quite significant!  Note that Dmitri Donskoi is the only cruiser I've found (aside from the Royal Navy cruisers) that deviates in this manner.

Alternatively we can assume that the time is correct and so is the radius but the speed listed in game is wrong.

  • Speed = Circumference / Time
  • Speed = (870m * 2π) / (79s)
  • Speed = [(870m/5.22) * 2π] / 79s
  • Speed = 13.26m/s

Let's convert back to knots:

  • Speed = 13.26m/s * 1.943844
  • Speed = 25.8kts

Finally, we can divide this value by 0.8 (the nominal deceleration for a cruiser) to determine what Dmitri Donskoi's maximum speed would have to be for this value to be correct.

  • Top Speed = 25.8kts / 0.8
  • Top Speed = 32.25kts

This isn't a small margin of error.  It's possible that Wargaming is inputting a  top speed of 32.0 to 32.5kts into their formula when assuming Dmitri Donskoi's straight line top speed.    At 0.8x, this would give a speed of 25.6kts to 26kts which is close enough to generate the numbers they're insisting upon.  This what I assume to be the most likely case given that the Soviet Cruiser line was accosted by a bunch of earlier copy and paste errors which had Dmitri Donskoi and Moskva listed with a 760m (!) turning radius previously.

Here's some examples I've timed and measured, including some battleships, destroyers and aircraft carriers. I have literally well over a hundred results like this.  You can math them out yourself, if you'd like:

Ship Name Turn Speed 360º
Turn Time
Radius Listed
in Port
Calculated
Radius*
Gascogne 23.9kts 82.4s 850m 840m
Richelieu 24.1kts 82.3s 850m 850m
Alsace 24.1kts 88.0s 910m 910m
Yorck 25.5kts 60.3s 650m 660m
Myoko 27.8kts 65.7s 780m 780m
Shchors 28.3kts 73.4s 900m 890m
Chapayev 26.8kts 78.4s 890m 900m
Tachibana 25.5kts 41.5s 450m 450m
Minsk 36.2kts 44.5s 690m 690m
Shiratsuyu 28.5kts 47.3 590m 590m
St.Louis 17.8kts 58.9s 450m 450m
Kaga 18.8kts 134.6s 1080m 1080m

* Rounded to the nearest 10m.
See?  Chapayev conforms.  It's Donskoi that's weird.

Special thanks to Lert for helping collect some of the vast number of turn times I have archived.  We're almost halfway done timing the whole game now!

Mouse please dont buff after i already ground that pos. They dont retroactively comp us for the time wasted!

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1 hour ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Never post right after I do Miss Mouse, now no one will even look at mine. You put much more time into yours than I did, I guess it's only fair.

 

Is it wrong i had to read that twice to not do a spitake...?

 

Hmm i think i'm gonna fire up my client again and check Balt/Buffalo, they used to have the same issues...

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2 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

This isn't the first time I've brought this up, but let's do it again:  Dmitri Donskoi has the wrong turning radius value listed in port.

The Soviet cruiser line has a history of having the incorrect turning radii listed in port.  They advertise as being far more agile than the ships actually are.  This was largely corrected in patch 0.7.6 released in late June of 2018.  Dmitri Donskoi originally had a turning radius listed in port as 760m.  It was patched to read 870m, but this value is still incorrect and still missing the mark of how wide this ship turns.  Here's how I know this:

8HIuAeg.gif
This is Chapayev (piloted by Lert) leading Dmitri Donskoi (me) in a turn.  We both began our turn on the navigation buoy second from the right.  You'll note that Dmitri Donskoi's turning circle overlaps that of Chapayev on the bottom right portion of the turn almost perfectly.  However, towards the left hand side, it stretches out noticeably.

DTE5N3u.jpg
This becomes clearer when you composite the animation frames.

J3dQL82.jpg
Respective turning circles highlighted with Chapayev in blue, Donskoi in red.

Now we can math out just how big these turning radius of each ship is by using information provided within the client.  The turning speed of each ship is constant after they finish decelerating.  Chapayev turns at 26.8kts out of her 33.5kt maximum speed.  Dmitri Donskoi turns at 28.7kts of her 36.0kt maximum speed.  You'll note that both cruisers turn at ~80% of their maximum speed -- this is normal for cruisers and it's repeated for almost every cruiser in the game with a few notable exceptions.  Getting these values is repeatable each time this experiment is run.

Next, we simply need to time how long it takes one of these ships to come about 360º.  Setting up the experiment is easy.  We run the ship up to its maximum speed.  Once this is achieved, we put the rudder hard over and let the ship decelerate to its stable turning speed.  From here, with a zoomed out view, aim your camera at some far off point, like so:

3n3dYl2.jpg
Mission Start.  Timer has begun on this 360º rotation.

1.)  Make sure your ship's turning speed has stabilized.  In Donskoi's case, that's 28.7 knots.  It can take a while for the ship to finish slowing down.
2.)  Ensure that your rudder stays hard over.  I use a double tap of the E key to keep mine hard over to starboard.
3.)  You're going to use centerline of your vision cone as your reference marker for starting & completing your 360º turn.
4.)  I use a stopwatch, but you can use the in game clock as a reference for timing your turn.  Recording software can make you even more precise.

ahgRR3s.jpg
Lap complete.  7:12 to 5:53 or approximately 79s by the in game clock.  Using a stopwatch, I have a current average of 78.36s after dozens of attempts at timing Donskoi's turn.

Math time.  We now have the ship's speed and the amount of time it spent turning.  This will give us the circumference of the turning circle.  From there, we can calculate the radius. 

  • Circumference = Ship Speed * Time
  • Circumference = (28.7kts) * (79s)

    Now let's convert knots to meters per second:
  • Circumference = (28.7kts / 1.943844) * 79s
  • Circumference =  (14.765) * 79s
  • Circumference = 1,166.4m

To get the radius, we divided this by 2π.

  • 1,166.4m / 2π = 185.6m

Whoa, hold the phone!  That's one tiny radius!  What's going on!?  Well, this is expected.  World of Warships has a compressed distance.  According to Sub_Octavian, this value is 5.22x.  This means that 1m visually in game represents 5.22m in real life for the purposes of distances traveled.  So we need to multiply our 185.6m by 5.22 to get the in port value.

  • 185.6m * 5.22 = 968.8m

Now let's account for errors in measurement.  Let's assume that the speedometer in game is off by +/- 0.1kts.  We'll also assume our ability to accurately record time is off by +/- 1.0s.  We can plug these all back into our formula and come up with a variance between 953.4m and 984.7m -- or 950m to 980m given how Wargaming rounds things up for the turning radius stat.  This means that when checking for accuracy of turning radii versus those found in port, a deviance of +/- 10m to as much as +/- 20m shouldn't be anything to concern ourselves with.  However, Dmitri Donskoi's lies far outside this.

In fact, we can reverse engineer how Dmitri Donskoi should be performing in order to conform to the 870m turning radius that Wargaming attributes to her.  We know her turning speed -- 28.7kts.  We know the radius she's supposed to have of 870m.  Now let's find the time:

  • Time = Circumference / Ship Speed
  • Time = (870m * 2π) / (28.7kts)

Let's not forget our conversions for compression and kts to m/s.

  • Time = [(870/5.22) * 2π] / [(28.7 / 1.943844)]
  • Time = (~523.6) / (~14.8)
  • Time = ~71s

Shaving off a full 8s worth of turn time is easily noticeable.  For Dmitri Donskoi to have the 870m turning radius in port, this would have to buff her rate of turn considerably from the current 4.6º/s up to 5.0º/s which is quite significant!  Note that Dmitri Donskoi is the only cruiser I've found (aside from the Royal Navy cruisers) that deviates in this manner.

Alternatively we can assume that the time is correct and so is the radius but the speed listed in game is wrong.

  • Speed = Circumference / Time
  • Speed = (870m * 2π) / (79s)
  • Speed = [(870m/5.22) * 2π] / 79s
  • Speed = 13.26m/s

Let's convert back to knots:

  • Speed = 13.26m/s * 1.943844
  • Speed = 25.8kts

Finally, we can divide this value by 0.8 (the nominal deceleration for a cruiser) to determine what Dmitri Donskoi's maximum speed would have to be for this value to be correct.

  • Top Speed = 25.8kts / 0.8
  • Top Speed = 32.25kts

This isn't a small margin of error.  It's possible that Wargaming is inputting a  top speed of 32.0 to 32.5kts into their formula when assuming Dmitri Donskoi's straight line top speed.    At 0.8x, this would give a speed of 25.6kts to 26kts which is close enough to generate the numbers they're insisting upon.  This what I assume to be the most likely case given that the Soviet Cruiser line was accosted by a bunch of earlier copy and paste errors which had Dmitri Donskoi and Moskva listed with a 760m (!) turning radius previously.

Here's some examples I've timed and measured, including some battleships, destroyers and aircraft carriers. I have literally well over a hundred results like this.  You can math them out yourself, if you'd like:

Ship Name Turn Speed 360º
Turn Time
Radius Listed
in Port
Calculated
Radius*
Gascogne 23.9kts 82.4s 850m 840m
Richelieu 24.1kts 82.3s 850m 850m
Alsace 24.1kts 88.0s 910m 910m
Yorck 25.5kts 60.3s 650m 660m
Myoko 27.8kts 65.7s 780m 780m
Shchors 28.3kts 73.4s 900m 890m
Chapayev 26.8kts 78.4s 890m 900m
Tachibana 25.5kts 41.5s 450m 450m
Minsk 36.2kts 44.5s 690m 690m
Shiratsuyu 28.5kts 47.3 590m 590m
St.Louis 17.8kts 58.9s 450m 450m
Kaga 18.8kts 134.6s 1080m 1080m

* Rounded to the nearest 10m.
See?  Chapayev conforms.  It's Donskoi that's weird.

Special thanks to Lert for helping collect some of the vast number of turn times I have archived.  We're almost halfway done timing the whole game now!

It's within WG's tolerances, I don't see a problem. 

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2 hours ago, DarthZeppelin said:

Poor Lert, you two must have gotten very dizzy testing this out.  +1

LMW just used a Laser Pointer to keep Lert on task.

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46 minutes ago, Carl said:

Hmm i think i'm gonna fire up my client again and check Balt/Buffalo, they used to have the same issues...

 

Survey in and they'e pretty close.

 

Buffalo does a 360 at 26.4 knots and takes 70.45 seconds. That equates to a radius of 795 meters.

 

Baltimore does a 360 at 25.9 knots and takes 67.14 seconds, this equates to a turning radius of 743 meters.

 

Official values are 800m for Buffalo, and 730m for Baltimore.

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I think the Donskoi needs some help anyways - maybe "correcting" the turning radius to match the listed value will make it more competitive. 

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1 hour ago, Carl said:

Survey in and they'e pretty close.

Buffalo does a 360 at 26.4 knots and takes 70.45 seconds. That equates to a radius of 795 meters.

Baltimore does a 360 at 25.9 knots and takes 67.14 seconds, this equates to a turning radius of 743 meters.

Official values are 800m for Buffalo, and 730m for Baltimore.

Here's the fun part.  You can thumbnail calculate what a given ship's rate of turn will be if you know how much a given ship type decelerates.  Thus you can predict the manoeuvrability of test ships as soon as they're announced.  Let's take Alaska from the Devblog:

  • Max Speed: 33kts
  • Turning Radius:  850m

So we know cruisers turn at about 80% of their max speed.  So depending on if Alaska runs at 33.1kts or 33.0kts, she should have a turn speed of 26.4kts or 26.5kts.   Dump this into our formula and we get a projected rate of turn of ~4.8º/s.  Having twirled the test version of Alaska already, I can tell you this isn't far off in her current test build.

 

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse

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4 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Dmitri Donskoi has the wrong turning radius value listed in port.

Okay, but I didn't see where you stated the correct value.  What is it?

 

And thank you for your service.

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20 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

Okay, but I didn't see where you stated the correct value.  What is it?

And thank you for your service.

It's in there, just buried.  It's approximately 970m (+/- 10m at best guess).  That's 100m more than listed in port.

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