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Sabot_100

How do you provide AA support?

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Current meta has CVs a rare participant in most battles, especially at higher tiers. AA abilities (a forte of US cruisers) is mostly wasted. However, when a CV is present or if the CV revamp actually makes them fairly common, how do you provide AA support to your BBs? In the AA support role, nobody beats the USN. However, BBs tend to operate in more open waters where most cruisers, especially USN, are just citadels waiting to be collected. Cruisers which rely on dodging and kiting may also have problems staying with the BBs. Is there a way to fulfill your AA support role and not get slaughtered?

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CVs do not provide AA support they are to be provided AA support by their supporting DDs, CAs and BBs! CVs provide Close Air Support by maintaining a CAP Continuous Air Patrol over themselves and their Supporting DDs, CAs, and BBs. This is next to impossible in this game because the DDs, CAs, and BBs stray far a field from the CV they should be supporting. 

So if a far a field DD, CA or BB request AA support the only such support they may get is if an high AA rated friendly is quite close rather than all the way across the map! 

If you want CV AA and CAP support you had best be within just a few kilometers ie less than 5 or closer of it! 

Take a look at a WW2 US CV task force video while under air attack! That is AA support so if you want it then keep your ship where you can receive it and provide it!

@Sabot_100 No misunderstanding at all! AA support is provided one ship to another by said ships staying closer together ie Task Force Formation. Preferably surrounding the teams CV so AA and fighters support is there equally for all. 

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There was a time in this game where an Atlanta would sometimes, stay back with the CVs and provide air cover. That was a long time ago in a meta far away. Unfortunately the new CV rework video doesn't show any thing about the AA's effectiveness against the incoming aircraft. As far as how to cover some one with AA, they have to be within your AA bubble or have to cross through it to get to them (at which time you are probably the target).

1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

Is there a way to fulfill your AA support role and not get slaughtered?

Be an Atlanta and spec for AA.

 

1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

Cruisers which rely on dodging and kiting may also have problems staying with the BBs.

Although if you go running off the BBs can't keep up with you, I think that it is the BBs that should be pushing up with the cruisers. The cruisers of course covering the DDs against other DDs and Cruisers, yet not yolo-ing in so they can also offer Air cover for each other and The BBs.

With all that said, I really don't have any ships spec'ed for AA unless it's for certain scenarios, such as Cleveland in Cherry Blossom. Even then though I don't do a full AA spec, I just use the AA consumable.

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In an ideal world, it would work this way:

DD's push forward towards a cap. CA/CL's push up behind them to cover, with BB's keeping up 3-5km behind. If planes come in, they should have to cross over the CA/CL's in order to reach the BB's. 

In reality though, BB's (especially high tier) are going to sit 10km behind the cap, far enough away that cruisers can't provide AA cover for them without abandoning their primary role of sinking red ships. The best you can do is try to keep yourself between the red CV and your BB's so that they have to go over top of you or take a very inconvenient circuitous route.

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Seems to be some misunderstanding. I was not talking about providing AA support for the CV but for the other ships that may have weak AA and are farther forward. Having a CV present is the factor that makes such a tactic necessary. I am hoping to prevent that friendly no-AA BB from getting taken out by the torpedo bombers while I am in range of enemy guns.

1 hour ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Be an Atlanta and spec for AA.

Atlanta is a prime example of a ship that can get slaughtered by the red team if it puts itself in a position to try an provide an AA bubble for its team since it is one of those "kill on sight", glass cannon ships. It does have the advantage of low detectability so it can hang back unseen with the BBs (not shooting at anything) providing DD and AA protection. However, if the planes/DDs never come to the party, it can be a pretty boring game.

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2 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Atlanta is a prime example of a ship that can get slaughtered by the red team if it puts itself in a position to try an provide an AA bubble for its team since it is one of those "kill on sight", glass cannon ships. It does have the advantage of low detectability so it can hang back unseen with the BBs (not shooting at anything) providing DD and AA protection. However, if the planes/DDs never come to the party, it can be a pretty boring game.

True, true, when the new CV rework comes out and there is no CV cap limit, it will be fun to try to run it with 6 CVs in a battle. The Atlanta doesn't really need to spec for AA anyway because the CVs stay away from them in the first place.

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5 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

True, true, when the new CV rework comes out and there is no CV cap limit, it will be fun to try to run it with 6 CVs in a battle.

Errr...hadn't heard they would be removing the MM CAP limit too. You sure? I think 2 CVs with infinite planes will be plenty to make everyone elses game miserable.

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Sub Octavian said in the interview that they would be removing the hard cap as it will not be such an Alfa strike ship anymore.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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The best AA support is to protect your destroyers so they can hunt down and kill the enemy CV. The "Provide Anti-Aircraft Fire Support" button has exactly one use, to annoy your teammates to the point they consider sinking you, just like the dreaded smoke screen and intelligence data buttons.

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2 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Current meta has CVs a rare participant in most battles, especially at higher tiers. AA abilities (a forte of US cruisers) is mostly wasted. However, when a CV is present or if the CV revamp actually makes them fairly common, how do you provide AA support to your BBs? In the AA support role, nobody beats the USN. However, BBs tend to operate in more open waters where most cruisers, especially USN, are just citadels waiting to be collected. Cruisers which rely on dodging and kiting may also have problems staying with the BBs. Is there a way to fulfill your AA support role and not get slaughtered?

If you're trying to protect BB's that need to get close, use islands to block as much incoming fire as you can, while still being able to engage something. The BB's should be close enough that your long range AA will cover them, and you can cause panic to help protect the BB's or DD's. You're also in a great place to use radar, get 2 birds with one stone.

After the revamp, the same idea should hold true, even if the actual mechanics change.

If your BB's are playing the range game, and are staying in open water I wouldn't worry about it too much. They have limited their usefulness alive, and if the CV doesn't get them, they'll be focused down quickly enough anyway. If you really must cover them, stay on the far side of them, and dodge.

Edited by SgtBeltfed

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15 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Seems to be some misunderstanding. I was not talking about providing AA support for the CV but for the other ships that may have weak AA and are farther forward. Having a CV present is the factor that makes such a tactic necessary. I am hoping to prevent that friendly no-AA BB from getting taken out by the torpedo bombers while I am in range of enemy guns.

Atlanta is a prime example of a ship that can get slaughtered by the red team if it puts itself in a position to try an provide an AA bubble for its team since it is one of those "kill on sight", glass cannon ships. It does have the advantage of low detectability so it can hang back unseen with the BBs (not shooting at anything) providing DD and AA protection. However, if the planes/DDs never come to the party, it can be a pretty boring game.

Some ships even some BBs can have strong AA with the proper Captain skills and upgrades. Like my USS Texas if it has couple BBs with it enemy often stays away out of fear of my AA or else they lose some planes. And there are good number of BBs that can make decent or good AA ships if properly upgraded.

AA cruisers like USN opcruisers can do some escort, but then other times they may need to hide behind islands sometimes and act as no fly zones for enemy planes which innthe very least can cause enemy longer flight times to get to the ships on your team, or even have enemy planes burned from the sky. But the island hiding thing is mainly suitable if BBs on your team are trying to push a flank and so is the enemy on which case denying enemy easy bombing runs to help their BBs works well.

For DDs they mainly can only deter planes from trying to follow them if they are capable of having AA in the first place. And most of the time DDs need to have their AA switched off.

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44 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Errr...hadn't heard they would be removing the MM CAP limit too. You sure? I think 2 CVs with infinite planes will be plenty to make everyone elses game miserable.

Check out the video starting at 51:40 and he talks about the CV limit and hard cap. Maybe even more than 1 per division.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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10 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Current meta has CVs a rare participant in most battles, especially at higher tiers. AA abilities (a forte of US cruisers) is mostly wasted. However, when a CV is present or if the CV revamp actually makes them fairly common, how do you provide AA support to your BBs? In the AA support role, nobody beats the USN. However, BBs tend to operate in more open waters where most cruisers, especially USN, are just citadels waiting to be collected. Cruisers which rely on dodging and kiting may also have problems staying with the BBs. Is there a way to fulfill your AA support role and not get slaughtered?

My position as an AA Cruiser varies on the situation.  But map terrain is the defining factor.  Also when doing this stuff in covering DDs, terrain and coordination determines what you can realistically do.  IMO, covering the Destroyers is actually the most important AA Duty you can do.  If your DDs are getting butchered by air attacks, then you pretty much lost the game.

 

Center of the group.  Ideally, the team will stay together and sail in as few groups as possible, 2-3 max.  In such a case I'd generally be right in the middle with my AA Cruiser if this was an open water environment.  This is especially so in low and mid tiers (Tier IV-VI) where you can get into Double CV matches, and air attacks can come from all kinds of different directions.  Being in the middle of the group with the AA Cruiser means you aren't at the front, where you're easy to get singled out and focused.  Again, that's vitally important if you have to do this duty in open water.  An AA Spec BB like Lyon, Richelieu, North Carolina, Gneisenau can actually do this also.  I remember long ago while playing Saipan, trying to attack some Tier V BB with sh*tty AA.  However, there was a Gneisenau several km behind that Tier V BB.  When my torp bombers were getting close, they were getting quickly deleted.  It surprised me because the AA obviously was provided by the Gneisenau as NY has garbage AA.  Most especially almost nobody AA Specs a German BB.  I tried 2 runs against that group but the Gnesienau swatted everything, only 1 torpedo plane dropped its torp, and it was wildly inaccurate.   Everything else got shot down.  I asked the Gneisenau if he was AA Spec, he said he was.  Secondary Spec Gneisenau has decent AA but not "No planes can get near me at all" levels of AA.

 

AA Barrier between the ships I'm escorting and the expected direction of air attack.  This one I prefer.  Being out away from the main group so I can intercept the bombers BEFORE they get anywhere near my group I'm protecting.  This is a very good one if your AA Cruiser is fairly stealthy (LOL Worcester :Smile_teethhappy:).  However, this is a poor tactic in open water where red ships can shoot at you.  Preferably there'd be islands nearby to rush ahead and do the AA ambush from.  However, this tends to be viable once against a specific CV as they usually learn to go around next bombing run.  After that first fight, I'd then go back and sail with the group.  I expect decent CVs to then try to come attack from a different direction.

 

AA for the Cap with Island Cover.  I lump this with my DD support duties as an AA Cruiser.  If the map allows and my spawn point permits, I race as fast as I can to a cap with islands near it, and grab one of them to hide behind.  The intent, ideally is to have cover as close as I can to a cap so I can help the DDs with Radar and AA support.  If something like DM, Worcester can find an island that's right on top of a cap border, this is awesome.  Your Radar & AA will reach far into the cap and the island will protect you from surface ship gunfire.  For me, getting this kind of spot as a Radar - AA Cruiser is like the Holy Grail for a match.  In the start of a match, I stress that speed to such spots on a map is absolutely vital because at the beginning, it is all but guaranteed that a CV will send their planes over the caps to spot, harass, attack, and destroy your team's DDs.  You need to hurry and get there to provide that AA cover and make the CV think twice on sending planes back in that area.  This relieves a lot of stress off your DDs.  Bad enough tangling with other DDs dropping torps and shooting inside the cap, but getting spotted from the air on top of that, then shot at by DDs inside smoke, and dancing with torpedoes, it's a lot for DDs to deal with.  Take the stress of air spotting, air attacks off them.

 

AA for the Cap with no Cover.  As nice as it would be to have islands to nuzzle up to for Radar & AA coverage for the cap, the reality is many maps will not throw you that bone.  Many maps will give you island cover but it's not close enough to the cap.  That's what I'll settle for but it's not ideal at all.  Then of course you have caps where there's zero island cover at all.  To linger behind the DDs as they do their cap game in open water is extremely dangerous.  You'll eventually get spotted by enemy DDs or enemy aircraft, and Radar Cruisers caught out in the open like that tend to quickly die a horrible death as the Priority Target counter skyrockets to 6.

 

AA for the Cap with DD Coordination.  Same as the previous 2 cases but with one very crucial factor.  You worked out some way where a DD will drop smoke before the cap so you can take your Radar - AA Cruiser close to the cap and provide support to the DDs.  This is a give - take situation.  Some DD is dropping a precious smoke charge so that the Radar - AA Cruiser can get closer to the cap and help the DDs out.  Typically for me, this is quickly feasible with Destroyers from your Division and you got voice-comms.  It's also possible to ask in team chat if one of the nearby DDs, "Hey, can one of you 2 DDs drop smoke for me just north outside the cap?  I can then move up and give you guys AA and Radar for the cap."  I found that most random, non-Division mate Destroyers will not do that for a Radar - AA Cruiser, so I revert to "AA for the Cap with no Cover" by default.  But on super rare occasions, you get a DD player that knows the importance of what kind of support you're trying to provide and tell in chat that they got you covered.

 

Movement:  Destroyer AA Escort.  Rather simple.  You're sailing behind the Destroyers ready to provide AA, even in open water.  However, you don't want to be too close behind them.  Be a bit further back and be ready to provide AA for the DDs if planes suddenly come your way.  Be ready to make a run for a nearby island if the reds will be coming up soon.  You can't do this in open water if the range to the enemy gets too close.  The DDs can get to 10km and not get spotted in front of a half-dozen Cruisers and Battleships.  But you as a Cruiser will get spotted further out and you'll get deleted.  You have to know when to break off and stay back, unless friendly DDs know to drop smoke for you.  If you got Division DDs and voice comms, you can say, "Drop me smoke" and they will immediately.  But random DDs will not know this and 99% of the time will not drop smoke for you.

 

The Solo Ship.  You got that teammate that's out alone and he's not in a ship notable for AA.  I leave him be.  It is more important I provide AA for a group of ships with bad, mediocre AA than that 1 guy who is getting shot apart because he's by himself.  You going out to help them will only put your ship in great jeopardy.  However, I may help him if there is no threat of surface ship gunfire to delete me.  If it's only air attacks against that guy, then it's more feasible to help.  But if enemy guns are also involved, nope.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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On 9/8/2018 at 9:46 PM, Vader_Sama said:

why-dont-we-take-our-cruiser-and-shove-i

Not always a good idea.  Because you'll then get shot at instead of the BB.

 

I'm playing a BB.  I see an enemy BB that has a Cruiser next to it.  Why, which one can I hit and get bigger returns on damage dealt for every AP salvo I send? :Smile_hiding:

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On 9/7/2018 at 2:11 PM, Doombeagle said:

The best AA support is to protect your destroyers so they can hunt down and kill the enemy CV. The "Provide Anti-Aircraft Fire Support" button has exactly one use, to annoy your teammates to the point they consider sinking you, just like the dreaded smoke screen and intelligence data buttons.

A destroyer who wastes his time CV hunting deserves to die screaming to red CVs.

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On 9/7/2018 at 2:03 PM, Sovereigndawg said:

Sub Octavian said in the interview that they would be removing the hard cap as it will not be such an Alfa strike ship anymore.

He said they would consider it, not that it was going to happen I am pretty sure.

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On 9/21/2018 at 5:27 PM, crzyhawk said:

He said they would consider it, not that it was going to happen I am pretty sure.

One problem with CV divisions is you would bring back the crossdrop everybody (besides CV drivers) hates so much. A little voice coordination on target selection and approach angles and you can guarantee hits. Then make a second crossdrop pass to make the flooding permanent. If players make a CV division, you know this is what they are planning. Fun for the CV drivers, not so much for anyone else that doesn't have incredible AA.

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6 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

One problem with CV divisions is you would bring back the crossdrop everybody (besides CV drivers) hates so much. A little voice coordination on target selection and approach angles and you can guarantee hits. Then make a second crossdrop pass to make the flooding permanent. If players make a CV division, you know this is what they are planning. Fun for the CV drivers, not so much for anyone else that doesn't have incredible AA.

With two players trying to coordinate it, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it.  Timing that could be extremely difficult, even with voice comms.  Doable, but very hard.  the current system I see as difficult to master, not so much to pull off once it's been mastered.

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On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 8:26 PM, crzyhawk said:

A destroyer who wastes his time CV hunting deserves to die screaming to red CVs.

Do you know you spend more time yapping than playing?  Is that because you know it all?

 

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22 minutes ago, RockChunker said:

Do you know you spend more time yapping than playing?  Is that because you know it all?

 

Well I play more than you so, once you catch up, then you can concern yourself with my yapping.  Until then, shoo

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On 9/7/2018 at 1:30 PM, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Some ships even some BBs can have strong AA with the proper Captain skills and upgrades. Like my USS Texas if it has couple BBs with it enemy often stays away out of fear of my AA or else they lose some planes. And there are good number of BBs that can make decent or good AA ships if properly upgraded.

:cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo:

 

I have a couple of friends who are trying out CV's and are currently working tier 4/5 and I thoroughly enjoy taking my 19pt DM AA Cpt out in my Texas!  Jolly good show chap.

Once upon a time I had a Lyon Cpt with BFT/AFT and he did chew up planes pretty well too.

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