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WG: Why bother with different shell velocities for HE and AP

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It has always struck me as pointless to have the HE shells travel at different speeds than the AP shells. This is not a simulator, WG should pick the ship's shell velocity for both. Different shell velocities for the SAME ship just make it harder to play for the casual player to reliably hit their targets. Thank god for the shell time.

The Nagato has the most meaningless demonstration of different shell velocities.

5b8ff478a4917_ScreenShot2018-09-05at8_14_33AM.png.eb1f80b6583cecf0f2cf67ba144e946a.png

Really! How about WG just pick 805 or 806.... Cue trolls that argue for that 1m/s difference being significant.

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It's based on historical data. It has to do with different shell weights, and sometimes powder charges.

If you keep the charge the same, yet the shell weight changes the peojectiles will travel different speeds.

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They have already gutted this game of any mechanic that requires skill to accommodate the casual player and it has ruined the game. Also, casual players will never know the difference in shell velocities. They are the ones that spam HE the entire match regardless of the situation.

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11 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

They have already gutted this game of any mechanic that requires skill to accommodate the casual player and it has ruined the game. Also, casual players will never know the difference in shell velocities. They are the ones that spam HE the entire match regardless of the situation.

Nothing ENDS a game faster than a lack of players. 

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10 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

They have already gutted this game of any mechanic that requires skill to accommodate the casual player and it has ruined the game. Also, casual players will never know the difference in shell velocities. They are the ones that spam HE the entire match regardless of the situation.

I fire HE most the time, even vs broadside a lot.   Why?   I'm never blessed with citadel RNG goodness.   I'll hit 10 shells dead center on an Omaha (I avoid tiers above 7 on purpose) which should be 1-shot kill, but for some reason, none of them citadel (even though they ALL should have) and I get half-over-pens for no reason and half hit normally (when they should again be obvious citadels).   

I frankly don't feel rewarded for using AP when I'm suppose to use it, I rarely if ever get citadels, even when as I said, all shells hit that area.  

So I just fling HE and start fires instead, the RNG is vastly more forgiving starting fires than hitting citadels.

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3 minutes ago, Zenn3k said:

I fire HE most the time, even vs broadside a lot.   Why?   I'm never blessed with citadel RNG goodness.   I'll hit 10 shells dead center on an Omaha (I avoid tiers above 7 on purpose) which should be 1-shot kill, but for some reason, none of them citadel (even though they ALL should have) and I get half-over-pens for no reason and half hit normally (when they should again be obvious citadels).   

I frankly don't feel rewarded for using AP when I'm suppose to use it, I rarely if ever get citadels, even when as I said, all shells hit that area.  

So I just fling HE and start fires instead, the RNG is vastly more forgiving starting fires than hitting citadels.

An Omaha's lack of armor means that you actually aim slightly above the waterline so those overpens end up hitting the hull through the water.

Shell fuses are a thing.

> cits

Reg pens with AP do, with few exceptions, around twice the damage of a pen with HE.

Even overpens tend to match HE pen performance.

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7 minutes ago, NATOMarksman said:

An Omaha's lack of armor means that you actually aim slightly above the waterline so those overpens end up hitting the hull through the water.

Shell fuses are a thing.

> cits

Reg pens with AP do, with few exceptions, around twice the damage of a pen with HE.

Even overpens tend to match HE pen performance.

Overpens matching HE means HE is better, since HE starts fires.    I'll fire AP at a broadside, but if I don't get the results I want, I'm back to HE right away.   

If I get a bunch of shatters, over pens, or bounces, I'm back to HE in a second.    I'm not a big fan of over-pen mechanic in general, I can't recall ever seeing a ship sail around just fine with multiple giant holes at the water line....but maybe I'm just thinking too realistically.

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11 minutes ago, Zenn3k said:

Overpens matching HE means HE is better, since HE starts fires.    I'll fire AP at a broadside, but if I don't get the results I want, I'm back to HE right away.   

If I get a bunch of shatters, over pens, or bounces, I'm back to HE in a second.    I'm not a big fan of over-pen mechanic in general, I can't recall ever seeing a ship sail around just fine with multiple giant holes at the water line....but maybe I'm just thinking too realistically.

HE is good if the target is angled to where AP will bounce or shatter, but it's otherwise better to use AP.

> over pen mechanics

They're intended mainly to prevent you from always deleting a cruiser or DD if you're close enough to ensure you land all shots.

You can still do it but it takes more effort, which is a good thing.

Otherwise BBs could just close to 10 km and kill literally everything smaller than a BB in 1-2 shots.

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7 minutes ago, NATOMarksman said:

HE is good if the target is angled to where AP will bounce or shatter, but it's otherwise better to use AP.

 

I get that and I understand when I'm suppose to use each, I'm just saying I'm not being rewarded for using AP, to the point where I rarely bother to swap to it, because I know its not going to do what I want it to do, and I waste a volley trying.  

As far as "angled" goes...everyone is angled 90% of the time I find, its only when someone doesn't know you're there can you ever get a good broadside shot anyway, so since everyone sits at angle or bow on, or whatever....staying with HE remains better, they might give you a broadside at some point, but chances are you won't have AP loaded and ready to go....so again.  

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25 minutes ago, NATOMarksman said:

Even overpens tend to match HE pen performance.

Yamato HE pen -2309

AP Overpen - 1480

Arizona HE - 1650

Overpen - 1030

Aoba HE - 1100

Overpen - 470

 

3 ships at random, where an HE pen deals over 50% more damage, or in Aoba's case, more than double. Why unless I have the AP loaded already, against DD's and certain cruisers at close ranges I actually use HE in a BB because at 8 km my Bismarck's shells went straight through the citadel of Leander, or my Gnei's through Emerald. Same with Atlanta. With the added bonuses of possibly knocking out torp tubes, various other weapons, propulsion, steering, slightly better odds at detonations due to blast radius of HE and armour so thin HE rounds can actually citadel them still. Oh, and fires.

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Just now, Zenn3k said:

I get that and I understand when I'm suppose to use each, I'm just saying I'm not being rewarded for using AP, to the point where I rarely bother to swap to it, because I know its not going to do what I want it to do, and I waste a volley trying.  

As far as "angled" goes...everyone is angled 90% of the time I find, its only when someone doesn't know you're there can you ever get a good broadside shot anyway, so since everyone sits at angle or bow on, or whatever....staying with HE remains better, they might give you a broadside at some point, but chances are you won't have AP loaded and ready to go....so again.  

You can only be angled against one direction of attack. If you can't get a good angle, you should join a flanking element or try setting up a crossfire with other friendlies near the cap.

I'm not saying don't use HE ever. It can produce results. But if you don't switch based on the situation and the enemy does, you can often end up losing a shootout, since AP dmg isn't as recoverable and stacking fires on someone who has permanently lowered HP hurts them more than HE alone.

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1 minute ago, NATOMarksman said:

You can only be angled against one direction of attack. If you can't get a good angle, you should join a flanking element or try setting up a crossfire with other friendlies near the cap.

I'm not saying don't use HE ever. It can produce results. But if you don't switch based on the situation and the enemy does, you can often end up losing a shootout, since AP dmg isn't as recoverable and stacking fires on someone who has permanently lowered HP hurts them more than HE alone.

Its only "permanent" if you hit the citadel, which as I've expressed, comes way too difficult for me  (although I constantly get citadeled even when I should be bouncing shells).    Otherwise all that damage can be healed regardless.     

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Just now, Zenn3k said:

Its only "permanent" if you hit the citadel, which as I've expressed, comes way too difficult for me  (although I constantly get citadeled even when I should be bouncing shells).    Otherwise all that damage can be healed regardless.     

Only 33% of AP pen can be healed. Cit dmg can be healed too, but only 10%.

> constantly get cit even when I should bounce

This happens because they know the lead to drop shells through the deck at range, get underwater hull hits closer, or are aiming at a weak spot unique to that ship.

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To my knowledge only one ship has a different velocity compared to its historical performance, which would be the Kirow (with nerfed values). The rest is historically accurate, or the data is so rare that I would not be able to tell.

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23 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

Yamato HE pen -2309

AP Overpen - 1480

Arizona HE - 1650

Overpen - 1030

Aoba HE - 1100

Overpen - 470

 

3 ships at random, where an HE pen deals over 50% more damage, or in Aoba's case, more than double. Why unless I have the AP loaded already, against DD's and certain cruisers at close ranges I actually use HE in a BB because at 8 km my Bismarck's shells went straight through the citadel of Leander, or my Gnei's through Emerald. Same with Atlanta. With the added bonuses of possibly knocking out torp tubes, various other weapons, propulsion, steering, slightly better odds at detonations due to blast radius of HE and armour so thin HE rounds can actually citadel them still. Oh, and fires.

Don't forget to halve those HE values once damage saturation kicks in.

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I would also add that if you're not good at getting citadel hits with AP then you need to use it more to get better, not less.

First of all remember that AP punishes exposed broadside targets by hitting them under the smoke stacks or turrets as a rule of thumb.

Then it's a matter of simply landing the shots close to the waterline. If you're having trouble aim between the main deck and waterline ti get decent results.

A BB will get plenty of overpens against a Cruiser, but the reward of 1 AP citadel vs HE is massive. Factor in regular pens and using HE on prime AP targets is just hurting youself.

With Cruisers vs BBs you can use AP if HE is lacking due to saturation, but you need to fire it into the upper belt or superstructure for full pens. It will bounce off the main belt or just fail to pen.

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2 hours ago, Zenn3k said:

 I'll hit 10 shells dead center on an Omaha (I avoid tiers above 7 on purpose) which should be 1-shot kill, but for some reason, none of them citadel 

If you consistently miss Omaha's citadel, your aim is off.

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1 hour ago, Zenn3k said:

I can't recall ever seeing a ship sail around just fine with multiple giant holes at the water line....but maybe I'm just thinking too realistically.

Realistically, you say? Answer this: what is "all or nothing" armor, and what is the logic behind it? 

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2 minutes ago, vak_ said:

If you consistently miss Omaha's citadel, your aim is off.

Well, hitting them dead center with all my shells...I dunno how it could be.

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41 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

I would also add that if you're not good at getting citadel hits with AP then you need to use it more to get better, not less.

First of all remember that AP punishes exposed broadside targets by hitting them under the smoke stacks or turrets as a rule of thumb.

Then it's a matter of simply landing the shots close to the waterline. If you're having trouble aim between the main deck and waterline ti get decent results.

A BB will get plenty of overpens against a Cruiser, but the reward of 1 AP citadel vs HE is massive. Factor in regular pens and using HE on prime AP targets is just hurting youself.

With Cruisers vs BBs you can use AP if HE is lacking due to saturation, but you need to fire it into the upper belt or superstructure for full pens. It will bounce off the main belt or just fail to pen.

K, I feel like I'm doing everything correct and just am not rewarded with citadels that I should be getting.

I just play ships that favor HE and spam those fires.   Until AP works for me like I expect it should, I'm not going to use it much.   I'm let down by my AP volley at least 90% of the time.    But if I start a fire and make them pop repair then start another fire, I'm never let down by that.

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1 hour ago, Zenn3k said:

Well, hitting them dead center with all my shells...I dunno how it could be.

Every cit is in a different area, to a degree. Some are high, some are low, and some are somewhere around the center of the Earth in their doom fortress. If you are in fact hitting the citadel, and it is overpenning, one needs to aim lower and try to hit the water a bit, thus getting the shell to slow down and stick.

That said, AP isn't the only thing that can cit. IFHE on a RN BB can and will cit a massive chunk of the cruiser population. While IFHE cits will be worse than an AP cit, HE doesn't OP, meaning that, at least against certain targets, you will not have to worry about your shells not striking true. The main thing that stops an HE cit would be if there is any armor over the cit, or if the cit simply is the armor. So long as HE penetrates the cit, not regular armor, it's a cit. With how HE detonates in the first thing it hits, this makes it depend on the ship being shot at, as the cit needs to be the very first layer of armor.

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3 hours ago, Thornir said:

Nothing ENDS a game faster than a lack of players. 

True, and the current meta is why I don't play anymore. I have an account with 47 premium ships collecting dust because this game is not fun anymore.

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3 hours ago, Zenn3k said:

I fire HE most the time, even vs broadside a lot.   Why?   I'm never blessed with citadel RNG goodness.   I'll hit 10 shells dead center on an Omaha (I avoid tiers above 7 on purpose) which should be 1-shot kill, but for some reason, none of them citadel (even though they ALL should have) and I get half-over-pens for no reason and half hit normally (when they should again be obvious citadels).   

I frankly don't feel rewarded for using AP when I'm suppose to use it, I rarely if ever get citadels, even when as I said, all shells hit that area.  

So I just fling HE and start fires instead, the RNG is vastly more forgiving starting fires than hitting citadels.

So the question you need to be asking yourself is what are you shooting the Omaha with? There is an overpenetration mechanic, if that is what is happening, instead of firing at a broadside Omaha wait until it is angled to give the AP fuse time to arm.

HE has become the easy button for WOWS, you are not the only one who doesn't bother to learn the mechanics of the game. The vast majority of the current players do it which has ruined the game.

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17 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Every cit is in a different area, to a degree. Some are high, some are low, and some are somewhere around the center of the Earth in their doom fortress. If you are in fact hitting the citadel, and it is overpenning, one needs to aim lower and try to hit the water a bit, thus getting the shell to slow down and stick.

That said, AP isn't the only thing that can cit. IFHE on a RN BB can and will cit a massive chunk of the cruiser population. While IFHE cits will be worse than an AP cit, HE doesn't OP, meaning that, at least against certain targets, you will not have to worry about your shells not striking true. The main thing that stops an HE cit would be if there is any armor over the cit, or if the cit simply is the armor. So long as HE penetrates the cit, not regular armor, it's a cit. With how HE detonates in the first thing it hits, this makes it depend on the ship being shot at, as the cit needs to be the very first layer of armor.

You reminded me of something that happened last week or so.   I'm in my T-61 (love that thing), game is basically over, I'm hunting the CV, I find it, its flush broadside, I fire AP...shatter/bounce....okay...try again...same, again...same...AGAIN...same....I say screw this and swap to HE, citadel, citadel, citadel.     I think it was a Ranger?  I forget but that was annoying and dumb.

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2 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

So the question you need to be asking yourself is what are you shooting the Omaha with? There is an overpenetration mechanic, if that is what is happening, instead of firing at a broadside Omaha wait until it is angled to give the AP fuse time to arm.

HE has become the easy button for WOWS, you are not the only one who doesn't bother to learn the mechanics of the game. The vast majority of the current players do it which has ruined the game.

I understand the base mechanics (although I don't have every ship memorized to know who overmatches what, etc) of AP, I just don't like it.   

If I hit something with my shells, I expect it to do damage to the enemy, bouncing all my shells because the guy pressed WASD for 2 seconds and turned his ship 10 whole degrees isn't rewarding gameplay.

People spam HE because it does its job, also people bow in with BB's most of the game, where HE is the only option.

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