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Aeries1

Concealment Expert Changes

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As it stands now CE is pretty much a universally mandatory skill.  Not for all builds, but all classes benefit greatly from it.

As it stands now some CE BB builds can outspot cruisers.  Do you think this should be accurate?

Cruisers get a -12% reduction, but BBs get a -14% reduction in spotting.  Since it is percentage based BBs gain the most value out of it since their initial detection is high.

Do you think CE should be a flat value, say 10%, regardless of class?

Personally I do.  There should be no situations where a full conceal build BB can outspot a cruiser given their size and mass.

Just curious on the playerbase opinion.

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Just now, Aeries1 said:

As it stands now some CE BB builds can outspot cruisers.  Do you think this should be accurate?

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Some cruisers are bigger than some battleships. This should be reflected in their concealment. Giulio Cesare for example is a midget, compare that to some of the larger cruisers.

2 minutes ago, Aeries1 said:

Do you think CE should be a flat value, say 10%, regardless of class?

I see no reason whatsoever to change it to that from the way it is now.

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4 minutes ago, Lert said:

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Some cruisers are bigger than some battleships. This should be reflected in their concealment. Giulio Cesare for example is a midget, compare that to some of the larger cruisers.

I don't think that comparing a battleship built in the 1910's to a large cruiser built in the 1940's is a fair comparison.  After all, they'll never be in the same battle.  I think that you should stick to BBs and large cruisers that are in the same general time frame and tier range when making these concealment comparisons.

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4 minutes ago, Lert said:

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Some cruisers are bigger than some battleships. This should be reflected in their concealment. Giulio Cesare for example is a midget, compare that to some of the larger cruisers.

I see no reason whatsoever to change it to that from the way it is now.

Very true, but concealment values in this game are based off of mast height, not size.  Take UK BBs for example, can easily out stealth a lot of high tier cruisers, yet their mass is much bigger.

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They should just bake the CE values into every ship by default and replace the skill with something that actually creates choice.

 

"Mandetory" skills like CE, PT, and Air Supremacy should not exist. They are anti-choice, forcing players to take them rather than promoting build diversity.

 

WG already rolled SA into every ship by default for this exact reason.

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1 minute ago, Aeries1 said:

Very true, but concealment values in this game are based off of mast height, not size.  Take UK BBs for example, can easily out stealth a lot of high tier cruisers, yet their mass is much bigger.

And yet, you seem to have problems with tiny BBs being more stealthy than large cruisers.

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

After all, they'll never be in the same battle.

Tell that to Amagi, an 1920s design that sees tier 10 as well as tier 6.

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Just now, Lert said:

And yet, you seem to have problems with tiny BBs being more stealthy than large cruisers.

Working my way up the UK BB line finally.  Sorry but a UK BB is not smaller than the majority of cruisers I play against.  Currently at KGV and I'm sorry but 12.2km is barely above what a T7 cruiser can achieve with a stealth build considering it is nearly double the mass.

Not a complaint thread, just doesn't make sense from a balance perspective.

 

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9 minutes ago, Aeries1 said:

Very true, but concealment values in this game are based off of mast height, not size.  Take UK BBs for example, can easily out stealth a lot of high tier cruisers, yet their mass is much bigger.

Mass doesn't mean you can be easily seen, though. Concealment works pretty much as it should.

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Concealment is a balance / flavor metric. The national flavor for RNBBs is their stealth and their HE.

Also, you're asking for things to make logical sense in a game where we have magic instant fire and flooding fixing buttons, hit points and ships that operate at 100% capacity when shot to pieces and almost sunk, magically invincible fire control, radar that goes through islands, etc etc.

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4 minutes ago, Aeries1 said:

Working my way up the UK BB line finally.  Sorry but a UK BB is not smaller than the majority of cruisers I play against.  Currently at KGV and I'm sorry but 12.2km is barely above what a T7 cruiser can achieve with a stealth build considering it is nearly double the mass.

Not a complaint thread, just doesn't make sense from a balance perspective.

 

Again, tonnage doesnt determine concealment.

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4 minutes ago, Lert said:

Concealment is a balance / flavor metric. The national flavor for RNBBs is their stealth and their HE.

Also, you're asking for things to make logical sense in a game where we have magic instant fire and flooding fixing buttons, hit points and ships that operate at 100% capacity when shot to pieces and almost sunk, magically invincible fire control, radar that goes through islands, etc etc.

It's worse, with Adrenaline Rush you operate at 120% capacity if almost sunk :Smile_teethhappy:.

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Just now, warheart1992 said:

It's worse, with Adrenaline Rush you operate at 120% capacity if almost sunk :Smile_teethhappy:.

That's just because the crew is exceptionally motivated to not be entirely sunk.

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6 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

This tells you why.

 

Seriously?  Been here since just after beta in '15 and you want to offer spotting tips.  Lol thanks, but no thanks.  Not a potato.

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25 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

Again, tonnage doesnt determine concealment.

Your right, it doesn't, it is mast height.  Question is.  Should that be the case.

The only thing this thread is about.

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3 minutes ago, Aeries1 said:

Seriously?  Been here since just after beta in '15 and you want to offer spotting tips.  Lol thanks, but no thanks.  Not a potato.

47 minutes ago, Aeries1 said:

There should be no situations where a full conceal build BB can outspot a cruiser given their size and mass.

Just curious on the playerbase opinion.

 

I wasn't offering tips, it explains why a ship has a certain spotting value. You are the one that asked.

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23 minutes ago, Aeries1 said:

it is mast height.  Question is.  Should that be the case.

Yes, since the top of a ship's mast is the first thing you see over the horizon. The concealment system loosely simulates the horizon and the curvature of the earth, something not physically represented in game.

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I'd rather see CE/CSM1 removed entirely but that's for a much larger restructuring of the excessively powered captain skill tree, etc.

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I do think CE is too powerful, there are certainly other skills that are similar or opposite (almost completely worthless for the points).  If CE didn't stack with the module then that would be at least an interesting choice, doubly so with the new slot 5 uniques.

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I don't see anything wrong with CE nor CSM1, then again, I play mostly destroyers, that rely on those more than any other ship in the game.

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think it’s JUST mast height.  Doesn’t the B and C hull Omaha have the same detect?   Because if so, the B hull has those sky-high tall masts and the C hull has the front one replaced with the AA platform and the rear one is significantly shorter as well.

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2 minutes ago, RumpledSteelskins said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think it’s JUST mast height.  Doesn’t the B and C hull Omaha have the same detect?   Because if so, the B hull has those sky-high tall masts and the C hull has them removed.

More like fire director height I think, but I'm not sure. I know that does affect firing range in this game though. Again, re: horizon.

Regardless, concealment is also a balancing factor.

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