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Dr_Venture

Renewed interest in Hybrid ships.

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So I was watching the twitch stream with sub this morning, and there was the usual ranting, raging, praise, cool...lot of the CV ideas I like. I really like they basically removed the game within the game and made it so that you are an active part within the team, cool....you are no longer the hand of Zeus.

Now here comes the curve ball....hybrids. 

So we've got two that come to my mind, Tone and the Ise's. So Tone really was more of a spotter cruiser, it yolo'd about of the main fleet and spotted targets for the carriers. Ise was a hybrid of that concept, it had spotters, fighters, and bombers. Coupled this with the various paper designs and bar napkin designs, we could have some interesting ships here.

Now with just the prototype of the rework in my mind, it makes me wonder how the hybrids would work. Would the hybrid have the ability to switch from squadron to first person view to use it's guns? Would it be forced to use it's squadron and then switch back once the squadron is used? Or would the squadron run on auto pilot at the selected target?

Tone offers a very interesting and unique ship that we dont have in the game, a ship that is dedicated to spotting with aircraft. With the removal of fighters being used as spotters, dedicated recon ships could become very useful. 

I recall back to a game called PTO IV, in it you could send out recon flights in a circle...it spots ships and targets for a period of time and then returns to the carrier. Tone could work in a very similar fashion...the ship would deploy 4 float planes, they would move out in pre directed directions...go a certain point and come back. They would stop and return or reroute if they ran into enemy fighters defending a squadron. 

Ise I imagine would operate in a very similar fashion, however since it's dive bombers could not return to the carrier...it would go as a consumable. The planes would be on a set timer so you couldn't loiter spot. They go out and bomb and then you lose them (they go land somewhere else.) You get like two or three charges with a limited number of planes. Then you can send out your scouts to various parts of the map. 

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The CV rework makes it MUCH easier to balance this out....Ise wont be OP in the least. The dive bombers will be small in size, they hit a target and she goes back to main gunnery. Tone acts as a fleet scout, and when she's not scouting she can be cruiser. 

Granted spotting needs to be buffed to make it worth doing this.....but it's an idea that could be good. 

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No hybrids make no sense in this game.

Pick one ship type and leave it alone.

If hybrids ever were introduced then I want a Shima with at least three squadrons of bombers.... A GK with 5 racks of torpedoes 5x3 and an extra turret of 18.1 in guns and the citadel removed.

You see how Stupid the Hybrids are?

I need MORE DOWNVOTES PEOPLE!

Your slacking.

Edited by CLUCH_CARGO
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1 hour ago, Dr_Venture said:

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The CV rework makes it MUCH easier to balance this out....Ise wont be OP in the least. The dive bombers will be small in size, they hit a target and she goes back to main gunnery. Tone acts as a fleet scout, and when she's not scouting she can be cruiser. 

Granted spotting needs to be buffed to make it worth doing this.....but it's an idea that could be good. 

No, this rework hammers a nail in the idea of a hybrid ship line.  Surface ship players need to be driving their ships, not playing with airplanes.  The last thing we need is a cruiser or battleship camping behind an island, playing airfield saying "but muh airplanes" when they need to be doing cruiser or battleship things.

Edited by crzyhawk
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Well the Ise and Hyuga would be extremely fun to play, but require someone with a lot of skill to use properly with the new CV changes. They would be pretty well suited to the new mechanic as more than half their planes were 'one-shot only' aircraft (launch from the ship and then land elsewhere).

This brings us to the floatplanes that both they and aviation cruisers like Tone had. There were both fighter and dive bomber versions of the historical floatplanes these ships carried, so they wouldn't be limited to scout duties only. However, these planes were terrible compared to dedicated planes (non-floats) in these fields.

I personally would love to see these aviation ships come to WoWs and be able to fight with both planes and main guns. :) 

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Just command the spotters on the 'M' map display.

Get used to flipping back and forth anyway.

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I'd say it'd split into two categories - ye to the standard hybrid like Tone or even a Cruiser no. 39 (the US 1930 hybrid ship line), but nay to a true dedicated hybrid with fighters and bombers.

From what it seems, you need even more time to dedicate to the actual usage of bomber squadrons than before, so in the case of a dedicated hybrid with attack aircraft, that is even more difficult than before while simultaneously using your own ship's guns.  It'd interrupt gameplay to even use it to such an extent. 

The only way to make hybrids work is two ways.  For scouts, have them be commanded on the map screen and only be allowed to launch one at a time.  (maybe 2 at a time, but no more).  That way, you can have them scout, and switching to the map screen or using the minimap is not much more difficult than designating secondary/aa gun targets.  For attack aircraft, the best way to treat them would be as targetable torpedoes.  Click once at your target and send them on their way.  Accuracy would be adjusted to make them scale with torpedoes.  That'd be the only thing that would make them functional, and even then, they'd be potentially overpowered or too much based on lolrandom dispersion. 

Of course, if the attacks were rocket based and were more consistent but low damage, it could be an interesting twist to the standard formula without getting into oneshot territory.  And, of course, attack aircraft from hybrids do provide vision, but they couldn't linger and provide continuous vision.  They also couldn't attack manually, so if they lose vision, they either hover/switch to nearest target/return to ship.

One way that a battleship hybrid might be interesting is if it could provide AA cover to surrounding ships.  Say, for the Ise hybrid, I wanted to take up the fighter protection role vs the scout role.  So, trading off my scout/spotter, I get what is essentially a super catapult fighter, in flights of however many.  (say, 4-6).  Let's say I get 2 flights of 4 fighters.  I then have the option of sending these fighters to cover an allied ship within a certain radius.  This allows the Ise to remain at the back and shift AA coverage with the click of a button to take into account approaching attack aircraft (Which a battleship should be paying attention towards, anyway).  So, in this case, you're playing a ship that gives up on attack potential to provide better AA cover (and these fighters still can spot and can see torpedoes, etc, so there are functions otherwise).

Let's take the Tone, assuming she's a T8.  Her firepower would be mostly the same as a Mogami with 8" guns, at least end-on.  Tone would have 6 scout aircraft that could launch either 1 or 2 at the time.  She also has torpedo tubes, so I imagine this would be restricted to 1 aircraft so there wouldn't be too much juggling.  As such, the scout could be launched and controlled on the minimap

Let's take the Cruiser no. 39, the US hybrid, assuming she is a T7.  She has better end-on firepower than Helena with all 3 guns facing forward.  However, her superstructure is large, making her very easy to hit, and she has thin armor, meaning all HE can pen her.  So she'll need to remain at range or take advantage of islands anyway (she's a US CL, so that goes without saying).  Her aircraft could, say, be organized into flights of 3 for scouting, with 8 flights in total.  (24 total aircraft).  The numbers can change.  And, here, she can use two flights at once because she is a worse cruiser than Tone, lacking torpedoes/weaker armament relative to tier equivalent cruiser/generally weaker and bigger target.  She also gets so many flights as she would be using T4 or T5 aircraft at best in a T7 match, which means you could potentially have T4 aircraft facing T9 AA.  

There's also potential for, say, the US hybrid getting the same super catapult fighter that Ise could potentially have, with her being able to put a flight or two of T4/T5 fighters in protection over allied ships at your luxury.  Then you could take advantage of the low tier and get the bonus for being under tiered if you spec your captain that way.  You could also get the attack aircraft with rockets on the autoattack path as I mentioned previously, but I feel that is your best path for them if they do pursue attack aircraft on hybrids.  It's the best way to up their attack potential.

However, I feel Hybrids would be better suited as support vessels, providing scouting support to the team or directional AA support with mobile "super catapult fighter" equivalents. 

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44 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

No, this reword hammers a nail in the idea of a hybrid ship line.  Surface ship players need to be driving their ships, not playing with airplanes.  The last thing we need is a cruiser or battleship camping behind an island, playing airfield saying "but muh airplanes" when they need to be doing cruiser or battleship things.

^

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If you are absolutely stuck on the idea that Tone could never field Zuiun dive bombers, than the idea would be to have semi-controllable recon planes.

 

Every recon plane in the game currently launches and orbits the ship that launched it. My proposal for Tone would be to point your cursor in a direction and issue the launch command. The seaplane launches, proceeds in that direction to a set distance, turns around, and returns. It may do this multiple times, yo-yoing between Tone and the target point, or it may do it just once on a cooldown much reduced from the current spotting plane cooldown.

 

This is minimally distracting for the player, a sort of "fire and forget" recon, while permitting the ship to fulfill a unique role.

 

Frankly I'd do Ise the same way, but with Zuiun dive bombers who auto-attack the first enemy they encounter along their flight path, then return to Ise and orbit until their flight time runs out-- A supplemental attack + catapult fighter.

Edited by KiyoSenkan
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I've said it before and I'll reiterate it now.  The best way, IMO, to get the Tone into the game would be to allow here to have traditional spotter planes, perhaps with a relatively short cooldown.  This would allow the Tone to extend her gun range, which would be a nice benefit.  It would get her into the game with her historical recon planes and in a way that is already handled by the game's existing mechanics.

I suppose that she could also have cat fighters, though with this new CV rework, I don't know how cat fighters are going to be handled.

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I don't see how it couldn't be as simple as this:

Fighter Support Hybrid

You are an Ise sailing alongside a Nagato, about 5km west of you.  At the start of the match, you launch both sets of your fighters (which take up normal consumable slots after your Damage Control and Repair Party).  You see enemy attack aircraft vectoring in on the allied Nagato.  To assist her, you select one group of fighters that have already launched by selecting Y, press and hold Ctrl, then click on the Nagato to send planes in that direction to protect the allied ship.  It's basically one additional step compared to targeting one's secondaries.  They would operate similar to the current catapult fighter, however, rather than the old fighters with infinite loiter time.

Scouting Hybrid

You are in a Tone/Cruiser No. 39, and you see a potential flank that needs scouting.  You launch a scout plane that orbits around you.  You press Y, (again, just picking a consumable letter), select the scout plane, press and hold Ctrl, then click (or double click) on the minimap to send planes to a square on the minimap using the same function that allows one to highlight a square on the minimap.  For more detail, one can switch to map view, and do the same thing again, but on map view it takes only a single click to send them exactly to a point like previously).  

Attack Aircraft Hybrid (which I feel like would be the eh-est of the bunch)

You are in a Hybrid and you see a lone enemy vessel you want to send your attack aircraft attack.  You switch to your attack aircraft (either a consumable button or otherwise), press and hold Ctrl, and click on the target to designate it for one attack.  The aircraft launch and vector in.  If sight is lost, the aircraft hover for a few seconds to reacquire target before returning to the ship, hovering around until they have their time expired or another new target is designated.

It would literally be an aircraft based, long range, stronger, and perishable (you run out of aircraft eventually) secondary in its functionality.

 

13 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

If you are absolutely stuck on the idea that Tone could never field Zuiun dive bombers, than the idea would be to have semi-controllable recon planes.

I personally don't think that they couldn't work, it's just that to make them usable they have to provide consistent damage, and there would be too many complaints as either their range is gimped into nothingness, they don't provide consistent damage, they provide too much consistent damage, etc.

With the rocket planes introduced, though, that could be a good alternative to dive bombs in general.  But losing attack aircraft on hybrids would probably be a sacrifice for gameplay.

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I like the idea of hybrids, but also agree with the "surface ships should be surface combatants", so, i think of it even simpler than @red_crested_ibis:

Tone receives a special spotter plane consumable that launches 4 planes consecutively that will orbit the ship further away so to provide full 360 degrees spotting, meanwhile the ship itself continues to play as a surface combatant, no direct control of the planes, if a spotter plane is shotdown, the remaining planes re-adjust their orbit patter in an attempt to cover the holes (think square/triangle formations).

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Well I like my idea of directed linear scouting, because it's something different from "just another orbit pattern".

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24 minutes ago, CO_Valle said:

I like the idea of hybrids, but also agree with the "surface ships should be surface combatants", so, i think of it even simpler than @red_crested_ibis:

Tone receives a special spotter plane consumable that launches 4 planes consecutively that will orbit the ship further away so to provide full 360 degrees spotting, meanwhile the ship itself continues to play as a surface combatant, no direct control of the planes, if a spotter plane is shotdown, the remaining planes re-adjust their orbit patter in an attempt to cover the holes (think square/triangle formations).

As I pointed out, it's no different than using your secondaries.  On one part, it's using catapult fighters and sending them to cover other vessels (Which I think any ship can do), so it's basically "using secondaries on allies" actions.  With attack aircraft, it's quite literally the same as secondaries, with one additional click to select them.  With scouts, it's much more complicated, but only in the sense of "selecting scouts and then double clicking the map" rather than "selecting main guns and double clicking the map" to highlight a sector in chat.

It's to integrate it into standard ship combat as smoothly as possible and to prevent one from using assets outside of the main battle screen.

12 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Well I like my idea of directed linear scouting, because it's something different from "just another orbit pattern".

Agreed.  And your linear method does have the benefit of removing the loiter problem that destroyers would complain about.

You could even have the tradeoff - while the scout plane is orbiting the cruiser, you get the range bonus.  When it's on its linear scouting mission, you lose your range bonus in exchange.  So that could be a component as well.

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5 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

No, this rework hammers a nail in the idea of a hybrid ship line.  Surface ship players need to be driving their ships, not playing with airplanes.  The last thing we need is a cruiser or battleship camping behind an island, playing airfield saying "but muh airplanes" when they need to be doing cruiser or battleship things.

If you read wgs details of the rework, you'd know that with AA becoming a manual aimed feature of ships, BB and Cruiser drivers will ve having their hands full whenever a spotter plane or squadron pops up somewhere.

 

I could see Tone, being a hybrid in the sense that her spotter planes drop small bombs on nearby enemy ships then return [similar to catapult fighters.] 

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Historically, even cruisers like the USS Indianapolis carried 3-4 float planes aboard...how come we only get to have one in the air? :Smile_sceptic:

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18 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

If you read wgs details of the rework, you'd know that with AA becoming a manual aimed feature of ships, BB and Cruiser drivers will ve having their hands full whenever a spotter plane or squadron pops up somewhere.

 

I could see Tone, being a hybrid in the sense that her spotter planes drop small bombs on nearby enemy ships then return [similar to catapult fighters.] 

I read the details.  It looks like it's going to be more intensive by selecting left or right sector of fire.  Long and medium range guns will still engage automatically.  I honestly expect that the best defense will likely be maneuver.

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4 hours ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Well I like my idea of directed linear scouting, because it's something different from "just another orbit pattern".

I think the way it should work is that you pick a bearing (like launching a torpedo).  Your scout then flies out a set distance, turns a dogleg for a set distance, then returns to the ship.  That's somewhat similar to the search patterns used by the Kido Butai at Midway.

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As much as the new rework info has succeeded in NOT making me have a renewed sense of impending doom and dread, it basically also means that ships like Tone, Ise, and Gotland would have to settle for being surface ships with extra special awesome spotter plane/catapult fighter variants in order to work in-game. Surface ships have to focus on the surface, carriers have to focus on the skies, 'nuff said.

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