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Slimeball91

CV rework and its possible impact on DDs?

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I have some concerns about the upcoming CV rework in regards to its potential impact on DD play.  A couple of things to get out of the way before we start.  First, if you haven't seen the info/video of the CV rework go check it out.  Second, keep in mind the rework is work in progress so things could change making any concerns/discussion here moot.

-My big concern is the 12 plane squadron with 4 attack waves.  I can see this being a potential problem with DOT for all ships, not just DDs.  I can see CV attacks going down something like this.  The first CV attack way is incoming so you pop your DFAA if you have it.  Maybe you fend off the attack or maybe you don't.  The planes circle around for the second attack and do some damage and score some DOT hits, fire or flooding.  You are forced to pop your damage control if its flooding.  Now you're in real trouble for the third and fourth attack runs.  This will be an issue for all ships, not just DDs.

-As for how the above effects DDs specifically.  Most DDs don't have DFAA or decent AA at all.  They will be at the mercy of the CV player just like they are now, except the CV player will get four attack runs to do it, all the while spotting said DD for his teammates to shoot at.  It looks like the rockets are designed to target DDs.  These rockets look to be reliable at starting fires and incapacitating modules (engine, rudder, torp tubes, and so on).  I can see a DD being hit by rockets on the first attack run and being forced to pop dam con to fix the engine or rudder.  You're very vulnerable after that with no dam con if you get hit in the following three attacks.  The DD may not even live long enough because it will be spotted the entire time and taking fire. 

-With CV having unlimited planes there is no reason the CV player can't sacrifice planes, and damage to perma spot ships, especially DDs.  This would give his team a big advantage in winning.  Once the problem ships like DDs are out of the way the CV player could focus on doing damage.    

-If the CV rework is successful and CV become popular enough to be in all, or most matches at high tiers, I see the current mechanics in the game to balance DDs (radar, hydro, and so on) needing to be reworked.

These are some of the things off the top of my head.  I'd like to hear some of your thoughts.  Please try to keep things constructive.  And I want to repeat, this is a work in progress so this could all become moot as things develop farther.  Please keep that in mind. 

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I'm going to continue boycotting games with sky cancer in them as much as possible .

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35 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

 

-My big concern is the 12 plane squadron with 4 attack waves.  I can see this being a potential problem with DOT for all ships, not just DDs.  I can see CV attacks going down something like this.  The first CV attack way is incoming so you pop your DFAA if you have it.  Maybe you fend off the attack or maybe you don't.  The planes circle around for the second attack and do some damage and score some DOT hits, fire or flooding.  You are forced to pop your damage control if its flooding.  Now you're in real trouble for the third and fourth attack runs.  This will be an issue for all ships, not just DDs.

 

 

Just like you said... it's a work in progress...

Try to keep in mind that buffs will undoubtedly come to any ships and consumables as required. What if your DFAA was buffed to a 5 minute duration? Or what if the waves of attacks actually do far less damage than they do currently?

How the heck is a CV player going to do cross-drops when locked into the viewpoint of a single squadron? Can he 'switch squadrons" instantaneously? Like Battlestations: Pacific? Kinda looks to me like the CV will have reduced "map awareness" and vision...

I do however agree that the ability for multiple attacks from a single squadron is concerning. What if a CV player learns how to "daisy-chain" together a dozen attacks from 3 squadrons?

 

 

Edited by ElectroVeeDub

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Hear we go with the sky is falling threads when they've not even tested anything yet and won't give a timetable to changes in game.

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Just now, ElectroVeeDub said:

Try to keep in mind that buffs will undoubtedly come to any ships and consumables as required. What if your DFAA was buffed to a 5 minute duration? Or what if the waves of attacks actually do far less damage than they do currently?

Most ships don't have DFAA so even if it was buffed it is a limited solution.  To be fair, I don't think we've seen the whole plan as far as AA is going to work.

Also, its not the alpha damage per se, its the DOT and module incapacitation, and your ability to manage damage control with repeated attacks.  I think the 12 plane squadron with 4 attack waves solves the problem of CV players spending too much time going back and forth for the CV for more planes, but it opens a big can of worms.

Just now, ElectroVeeDub said:

How the heck is a CV player going to do cross-drops when locked into the viewpoint of a single squadron? Can he 'switch squadrons" instantaneously? Like Battlestations: Pacific?

The idea is to remove the massive alpha strike of stacking squadrons and cross drops.  The problem I see is the new system trades massive alpha and replace it with the potential for DOT damage that can't be controlled by the receiving player.  Its moving the problem from here to there and not really fixing it. 

Just now, 1SneakyDevil said:

Hear we go with the sky is falling threads when they've not even tested anything yet and won't give a timetable to changes in game.

I asked that things stay constructive, please. 

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30 minutes ago, 1SneakyDevil said:

Hear we go with the sky is falling threads when they've not even tested anything yet and won't give a timetable to changes in game.

Yes. The angst will continue anyways. It's best not to give threads like these any credence, since they amount to worrying without cause. I'm out of +1s, but I will revisit the page.

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Not being deplaned just means the CV's output is determined by turn around time of the airwing. CV's already have a penalty to the turn around for losing a flight, I'd imagine that there would be something similar with the rework. The bad CV drivers will just not get knocked out of the match in the first 8 minutes, the good ones won't notice.

As far as DD's in particular, it looks like DD's are going to be dodging attacks. Each attack was with only 3 aircraft, so torpedo bombers and dive bombers look to be easy to deal with by just turning into them or broadside as applicable. A CV can no longer put 12 torpedoes in the water with no room between them, looks like the tightest spread had enough room to get at about 2 DD's between the torps. The needing to plan the drop (IOW fly straight) is gonna make smart DD's getting hit with torps a rarity, same with DB's. The Rockets might be a different story, and might be there so that some CV's have an anti-DD weapon. I'm guessing based on historical information that rockets will be a USN and Royal Navy thing, the Japanese didn't use air launched rockets outside the MXY-7 Ohka (AKA the Baka Bomb), and I doubt it will appear in game for all kinds of reasons. I never once saw an attack on a maneuvering target, its hard to judge how easy to dodge they will be.

As far as the DOT's, I never saw the dive bombers set more than one fire per drop, it's only a 3 bomb drop. It's gonna be cool down discipline v/s how long the CV wants to fly the planes around in the AA. That can be balanced by the effectiveness of AA. If you pop your damage control on the first fire, you're gonna burn to death just like you were the victim of HE spamming cruisers. Difference is, that Midway had only 4 shots at it, a Cleveland has as many as it's alive for. WIP I guess.

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26 minutes ago, pewpewpew42 said:

Yes. The angst will continue anyways. It's best not to give threads like these any credence, since they amount to worrying without cause. I'm out of +1s, but I will revisit the page.

Slow your roll.  There is no angst.  Nothing is set in stone here, we all know that.  More to the point, WG shows us work in progress ships/projects specifically for player discussion and feedback.  That is what this is.  Feel free to ignore the thread if you want.

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Anyways... now that the thread got de-railed... we were discussing how is this CV re-work going to affect DD's?

Well... I imagine the gameplay will be rather similar to what it is now. Whereas CV squadrons are rather ineffective against DD's. The bombs and torpedo squadrons are easy enough to out-manuever in most cases currently for most DD's.

However, the video I saw concerning the Q+A for CV re-works had a couple rather short video's that were looped over and over. There really wasn't much actual game-play footage considering. The footage did show a fighter squadron with a rocket attack, and the WG spokesman said it was similar in premise to an HE attack, low alpha, high fire chance. That could really make things more interesting for DD's. Now those annoying fighter squadrons can keep you perma-spotted and kill you? Sounds like a blast...

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2 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

I have some concerns about the upcoming CV rework in regards to its potential impact on DD play.  A couple of things to get out of the way before we start.  First, if you haven't seen the info/video of the CV rework go check it out.  Second, keep in mind the rework is work in progress so things could change making any concerns/discussion here moot.

1. -My big concern is the 12 plane squadron with 4 attack waves.  I can see this being a potential problem with DOT for all ships, not just DDs.  I can see CV attacks going down something like this.  The first CV attack way is incoming so you pop your DFAA if you have it.  Maybe you fend off the attack or maybe you don't.  The planes circle around for the second attack and do some damage and score some DOT hits, fire or flooding.  You are forced to pop your damage control if its flooding.  Now you're in real trouble for the third and fourth attack runs.  This will be an issue for all ships, not just DDs.

2. -As for how the above effects DDs specifically.  Most DDs don't have DFAA or decent AA at all.  They will be at the mercy of the CV player just like they are now, except the CV player will get four attack runs to do it, all the while spotting said DD for his teammates to shoot at.  It looks like the rockets are designed to target DDs.  These rockets look to be reliable at starting fires and incapacitating modules (engine, rudder, torp tubes, and so on).  I can see a DD being hit by rockets on the first attack run and being forced to pop dam con to fix the engine or rudder.  You're very vulnerable after that with no dam con if you get hit in the following three attacks.  The DD may not even live long enough because it will be spotted the entire time and taking fire. 

3. -With CV having unlimited planes there is no reason the CV player can't sacrifice planes, and damage to perma spot ships, especially DDs.  This would give his team a big advantage in winning.  Once the problem ships like DDs are out of the way the CV player could focus on doing damage.    

4. -If the CV rework is successful and CV become popular enough to be in all, or most matches at high tiers, I see the current mechanics in the game to balance DDs (radar, hydro, and so on) needing to be reworked.

These are some of the things off the top of my head.  I'd like to hear some of your thoughts.  Please try to keep things constructive.  And I want to repeat, this is a work in progress so this could all become moot as things develop farther.  Please keep that in mind. 

1.  This is a fair point.  Time will tell.

2. I'd hold off on concerns about AA and the DefAA consumable.  We have no idea how AA is going to be changed.  We just know that they're talking about changing it.   It was (IIRC) mentioned in the stream that there was some concern about players having ships with AA builds not seeing carriers for many battles, and how that made those builds seem useless.  (Don't remember their exact words, so don't hold me to them.)  Might they remove the DefAA consumable?  Might they change AA related skills and upgrade modules?  Only time will tell.

3. Perma spotting DDs will come with a high price.  IIRC, they said that only a single squadron would be in the air at any given time, SO to try to keep a DD perma spotted would prevent the carrier from doing anything else while he's trying to do that perma spotting.

4. Skipping this one as it's not relevant to the CV rework.  

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

I'd hold off on concerns about AA and the DefAA consumable.  We have no idea how AA is going to be changed.  We just know that they're talking about changing it.

While the AA didn't look very impressive in the demo we don't really know if what we saw is nothing more than a placeholder until its ready to show.

1 hour ago, Crucis said:

It was (IIRC) mentioned in the stream that there was some concern about players having ships with AA builds not seeing carriers for many battles, and how that made those builds seem useless.  (Don't remember their exact words, so don't hold me to them.)

What I took from that is AA builds aren't worthwhile now, and they want to change that.

1 hour ago, Crucis said:

Perma spotting DDs will come with a high price.

Actually, the possible perma spotting is my biggest concern because it will come at very little cost.  The only thing a CV player might give up is doing some possible damage.  I say might because the CV can still attack while perma spotting the DD (and he'll have 4 attacks waves to try).  Even if he gives up some possible damage as he spots the DD he is risking nothing.  It's just like the radar cruiser that hugs an island and waits for the DD to enter the cap.  It can be a very good play by the radar cruiser if he can prevent the enemy from taking the cap, even if he's never in a position to shoot.  Sure the radar cruiser can't shoot when he's behind that island, but he's also pretty safe and that can make it low risk, high reward.  That's why people do it.

I'm concerned because there is no risk for the CV player to perma spot, and the potential rewards are high.  There is no risk because he'll have unlimited planes so he doesn't have to worry about losing planes loitering around while spotting.  As I said, maybe the CV player will give up some damage wile spotting DDs.  Still, the rewards will be really high for what amounts to no risk.  If things continue down the same track then I see DDs will be perma spotted all the time.  There's no way to balance DDs if they are perma spotted.  And that brings me to the next point.

1 hour ago, Crucis said:

Skipping this one as it's not relevant to the CV rework.

DD balance is completely tied to this rework.  Right now DDs are balanced with CVs being in very few games (high tiers).  The entire point of the CV rework is to make CVs popular and get them in more games, a lot more games.  If that happens the current balance is out the window, and all the anti-DD mechanics will need going over.  (I said as soon as WG mentioned they are looking into possibly changing radar that is was probably because of the CV rework.)

 

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Honestly I think that the air-war situation for DDs will improve a bit. They're already small targets and hard to hit, now the carrier players will have a more limited view from which to hit these still very nimble and quick targets, all while aiming manually from third or first person rather than top-down. Plus, remember that now ALL ships will be able to intensify their AA to one side or the other even without DFAA, that's going to be a huge benefit to DDs and BBs in particular.

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7 hours ago, Landsraad said:

Plus, remember that now ALL ships will be able to intensify their AA to one side or the other even without DFAA, that's going to be a huge benefit to DDs and BBs in particular.

We already have the Ctrl+click that is probably a better system since it follows the planes.  The new system is only  boost on one side of the ship and is said to take "tens of seconds" to switch it to the other side.  As fast and maneuverable as planes are they will be able to fly around to the other side of your ship with no problems. 

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In looking at the video, seeing 12 planes  with what appears to be unlimited squadron replacement would cause issues with surface ships--they will all be destroyed in time.  CVs should run out of planes after they have been shot down. This give the surface ships time to find the CV and sink it.

The Defensive AA module is still an issue.  A Wooster  can destroy 200 planes at Tier 10 rendering Air power useless.  This is why I will not leave Tier 6 for CVs.  The airplanes all are destroyed in some matches at Tier 6.  Tier 7 CVs have to contend with Tier 9 matches where even the BBs with no Defensive AA can knock down 30 planes with few issues.

Having rockets on the fighters would be useful for attack purposes.  A player would have to choose defense vs offense for the CV and other surface combatants.  It changes the air cover role.

The old system worked for Tier 4-6 CVs.  It was not suited for the higher end.  I may miss the old system for the lower end CVs.

NJroc

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12 hours ago, mrieder79 said:

I heard the airplanes will have radar...

Nice try. Don't want to go down that rabbit hole. That would be bad

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15 minutes ago, Florendo19 said:

Nice try. Don't want to go down that rabbit hole. That would be bad

Actually, he's telling the truth. Watch the 2 hour long Q+A video... I'm not saying planes with radar will happen. It was merely a "consideration" ...

 

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1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Actually, he's telling the truth. Watch the 2 hour long Q+A video... I'm not saying planes with radar will happen. It was merely a "consideration" ...

 

I didn't see any mention of radar planes, although I could have missed it.  I don't see any point.  Planes are radar with unlimited duration and they follow any ship they want to keep detected.  This is why I cringe anytime someone mentions CV as the solution to the DD concealment "problem".  When any ship, or in this case planes, can keep a DD spotted at their choosing, then DDs just don't work.  

I see three options to solve this problem.  First, give all DDs insane AA.  Second option, give DDs an air support/fighters consumable strong enough to prevent perma spotting.  Third, CVs don't share spotting with their team.  None of these options are very likely to happen.

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2 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Actually, he's telling the truth. Watch the 2 hour long Q+A video... I'm not saying planes with radar will happen. It was merely a "consideration" ...

 

I must have stopped watching by then. As I said that would be bad. And by that I mean both the r word rabbit hole and the unholy mix of the two. It makes sense and is doable but it is also a little advanced for this time period. I will advocate for radar equipped planes when we transition to guided missile ships and attack subs.

That being said this will probably be better for DDs with only one squadron per CV since your team can have more than one DD and the single CV can't cover them all. I see rocket planes following DDs as close support and if they run into the opposing scouting group they can summon fighters for cover. It will actually provide DDs with support early on in a match rather than everyone sitting back and waiting to see if I die from focus fire from 8+ ships which are then lit up for them to pick off at their leisure while I sink. I see this as a chance to work with another class especially in the early game. CLs and CAs do not always provide enough support for a DD and can be a liability due to their size and mobility. Planes are the perfect ally for a DD because they are fast and provide excellent surveillance while bringing great striking ability.  Other players might get mad if I "bale on them" by avoiding a situation that I know will result in a trip back to port, but a CV can get their planes out just as fast if not faster than I can and we both fear the same ships (USN radar and AA cruisers) so its not like they can blame me for finding a better position. Both of us like to attack the same target (BBs) so we can coordinate strikes like two DDs working together. Will some CVs choose to hunt DDs? Yes. Everyone hunts DDs. But I also think that friendly CVs can be a DD's new best friend. So call me optimistic but I think this could be FUN

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Well... judging by the Q+A video, it looks like WarGaming intends to change the functionality of fighters massively. It appears that fighters are being reworked to deal specifically with destroyers as bombers cannot for the  most part. Hence the rockets and radar...

 

 

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5 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Actually, he's telling the truth. Watch the 2 hour long Q+A video... I'm not saying planes with radar will happen. It was merely a "consideration" ...

 

Oh no. I thought I was joking. *facepalm*

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I watched the video.

For starters I lost any interest in grinding the CV lines.  My reason for wanting to play CV was the ability to effect all areas of the map at once, as well as changing between offense and defense.  The defensive set up is now so dumbed down you press a button for fighters?  Definitely smelling an open bottle of glue here.  I am feel insulted.  The Devs obviously think the player base is so dumb that playing offense and defense at the same time is too much for us.

There is no punishment for CVs that throw planes away.  They just spawn more.  Very little thought again required here.

Pretty much the only thing you need to learn is how to stack DOTs.  But you are limited in the number of ships you can hit at the same time.  No more cross dropping DDs (so no more crazy torp beats), it just leaves me feeling very blagh about it.

The big one that I see no one speak about is spotting.  A CV is no longer the real eyes of your team.  They can spot one location, thats it.  Gone are the intricate plays good CVs would make like sneaking an empty bomber in behind the enemy team to spot everything. 

A CV now contributes very little for the team.  As far as his impact he might as well be another BB or CA.  Some may think thats a good thing, but I think its just sad that the class most able to help his team has been gutted.

This is the most egregious loss of complexity and depth for players in a ship type quite possibly in the history of the game. 

I am saddened for CVs mostly.  I expect most serious CV mains will quit the game.  If DDs were treated this way I'd be done.  I hope they reconsider.

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I welcome any changes to CVs that take away their ridiculous power to influence the entire map and specifically to make life artificially harder for people who mostly enjoy DDs. Many people don't care about CVs being so powerful because they either play them or play BBs/CAs/CLs which have excellent AA. The new rockets will only add another random factor for DDs that won't improve their experience.

Dumbing down CV play is about the only thing they can do, because WG wants more people to play them, and less people to whine about them. Whatever they do, some will be unhappy simply because they're still in the game and present further elements of uncontrollable RNG that is simply frustrating.

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"Infinite planes means no risk" or some variant of that has been said multiple times in this thread.Relaunching and flying them back there is risk one and I believe they said something along the lines of an increasingly long relaunch timer for losing multitudes of planes.  The only real purpose behind "infinite" planes is to prevent bad CV players from having to find someone to ram 8 minutes into the game because they kept trying to drop on US Cruisers. 

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Alright I give up DD's were the only class I actually enjoyed playing, Having match after match after match of chain radar by 4 ships its impossible to play this stupid [edited]game any longer. GL all. [edited] you WG

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