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Comrad_Pravda

Don't really care for this Cruiser HE spam meta

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I feel like a recent problem is that this High Explosive Cruiser spam meta isn't fun. I feel like it is ruining the enjoyment of the game.

So I have been noticing something lately. Have been playing the game since beta, and I have never really felt like this HE cruiser spam has been as powerful as I feel like it is right now. I don't know what it is for sure that caused this to happen. Maybe people have finally become better at aiming than they were for the past 2 years or... maybe there is a new aimbot out or something, but it seems to me that, at this point, cruisers are the most powerful things, and there isn't much that can be done about it other than get a cruiser yourself and play it the way everyone else does, except that if that type of play isn't fun to you then... the game isn't fun. Quit I guess? That doesn't seem good. It seems like we have a cruiser HE spam meta now. I think it probably has a lot to do with the new American cruiser stuff.

To be clear, it seems to me that the most powerful thing to do in the game right now is to play a radar cruiser, sit behind an island corner for hard cover and vomit HE, and fire on everything in range. Make micro adjustments to your position, and then when everything is dead or has run away, move up to the next island. Repeat. I don't really see a counter to this. When thinking about it, a lot of cruisers can get their detection radius pretty low.

How this Cruiser strategy interacts with Destroyers:

If a DD approaches them and spots them, the cruiser can just pop radar, spot the DD and then obliterate them. As soon as the cruiser gets spotted, the game informs the cruiser with that little alert icon that they have been spotted. The DD is already pretty much automatically within radar range because, if the cruiser has the stealth build, the cruiser's radar range is pretty much about the same size as their detection radius, so the DDs can't do their job and spot for fear of getting instantly radar spotted almost the moment they spot the radar cruiser with no time to turn around and get out of the radar zone while keeping the cruiser spotted. Sure the DD can peek around a corner and then if they see a radar cruiser, they can try to pull back and only lose 1/3 their HP to the cruiser, but that isn't really letting them do their job very well. If the DD launches torps, wargaming already designed cruisers to be able to thread the torps, especially if they have hydro. They even made a video showing what their original design intent was:

 

So anyway... the cruiser would be better at spotting than the DD because the cruiser can just drive forward spotting larger ship for their team, and as soon as he gets the little symbol that says he is spotted, he can just pop radar, spot the DD and kill it. Then stop firing, and 20 seconds later go back to spotting bigger ships as his stealth kicks in again. The DDs can't gun down the cruisers. That isn't going to work. If the DD tries to come around a corner and torp the cruiser, the cruiser can notice that he is spotted by the icon, and often times just radar, and gun down the DD, then go back to camping behind the island. The Radio Location Captain skill makes the cruiser know which direction to point to hunt and push into DDs before using radar: wait till the cruiser sees he is spotted. Wait about 10 more seconds while using Radio Location to sail straight at the DD. Pop radar. Kill DD. Thread between the torps that you rightly should have expected. Eat the DDs pathetic damage. Nothing the DD can do. Smoke doesn't work nearly as well in this game anymore because of how many ships have hydro or radar, which ships start having at tier 7, meaning if you want ton ensure there won't be an atlanta or something on the enemy team with radar, you would need to play nothing higher than tier 4 DDs. The cruisers can thread the torps, and the stealth doesn't work for the reasons I said. I don't see DDs as being a very viable class anymore. Why not just play a cruiser? Cruisers have torps too. Some can even stealth launch.

How it affects Battleships:

The cruiser sits behind an island and vomit HE fire on the battleship until it melts. If the battleship tries to flank, the cruiser just reverses slowly around the island playing Ring-Around-the-Rosie, keeping the island between them and the BB while they can hit the BB, but the BB can't hit them back reliably until the BB dies. The BB won't last long enough to catch him. If the BB gets too aggressive, they could get torps in the side depending on the cruiser, so the BB has to swing wide, which gives the cruiser plenty of time to make sure the island is between them and the BB.

How it affects other cruisers:

Obviously this is a mirror match so it is generally balanced, but it is still irritating gameplay - just a bunch of people camping behind islands.

How it affects Carriers:

A carrier trying to drop on a cruiser with defensive fire? Good luck with that. You're probably going to lose more than half your planes. The cruiser will cause panic on the planes, and then thread the torps. AP dive bombers don't work that well on cruisers. HE bombers don't work that well on anything, and the cruiser can just put out the fire. Even if you manage to damage the cruiser, it probably won't be worth it.

Additionally:

On top of all of that, it is unrealistic. Where are these islands in real life that you can hide a 8 story tall building sized cruiser behind that don't have beaches, and don't slope up slowly, but instead go nearly vertical as soon as the island comes out of the water? (Yes I know that does exist in some places in the world, but that is the exception, not the rule. Don't show me pictures and go: "Huh huh! See! Here, and here, and here! Yer wrong! I love proving people wrong with technicalities because what they said is mostly true, but isn't absolutely 100% true all the time because I am autistic!") The point is that isn't how naval combat works. This isn't World of Tanks where we are having this peek-a-boom stuff. They even made a video about it:

 

Except that this actually does work and is pretty much the most powerful thing to do in the game for cruisers. You just don't actually expose your ship around the corner of the island. You shoot over it, or reverse with it in front of you until you can shoot over it.

The thing is, I don't know what to do about this. It is super powerful, and I don't see a way to counter it, but it makes the game... not fun... so... I don't know. Nerf radar so DDs can spot and stealth launch torps at cruisers more? Torps would probably become too powerful then. Smoke would be super powerful too. Get rid of smoke too? Realistically, Wargaming isn't going to do either one of those things, and probably shouldn't. The obvious answer seems to be, "If you can't beat them, join them." Get a cruiser with a high rainbow fire arc, and vomit fire on everything. Us the strategy. It is the best. What if you don't like playing that way though? Sorry? That is what this game is about? Quit? Ehh... Doesn't seem like a good answer.

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Yep. Don't like island firing. Don't like so much spam fire. 

Penetration is just a weird mechanic that doesn't work now

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I really dont like this "one AP salvo deleting my CA or stealth torps out of nowhere sinking my BB in one spread" meta

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On the other hand, a well aimed BB salvo can overmatch most cruisers and even get a Dev. Strike. To be honest I think we are just now seeing the results of the older meta favoring bowtanking and slowly reversing in most BBs. 

Then we also got a new line focused on high HE DPM, and instantly bumped the Tier VI almost everybody had into a Tier VIII.

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Radar doesn't kill ships, shells, torpedoes or bombs do. 

Try to use aircrafts next time to spot such ships, move closer towards them so they can't shoot over the island anymore, go dark to reposition or ask a friendly BB player to blap the cruiser.

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I love Cruisers and I love burning BB's down to the waterline, and I abhor the cowardly CL drivers that hide behind islands as described by OP.  When I see that taking place, I try to go after that CL and make him pay for his cowardice.

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It's way less of problem below T8. Since I stopped playing T8-10 matches, my enjoyment of the game has been much restored. Almost none of the things that make T8-10 such a trial -- craploads of radar, HE spam, high ROF ships, invincible CVs acting as offmap guided missile cruisers, crappy island-choked and channeled maps that force players to either camp or die, and triple divisions of stat farming purple clans -- exist below T8. 

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1 hour ago, k9kid12 said:

I really dont like this "one AP salvo deleting my CA or stealth torps out of nowhere sinking my BB in one spread" meta

:Smile_great:This

1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

On the other hand, a well aimed BB salvo can overmatch most cruisers and even get a Dev. Strike. To be honest I think we are just now seeing the results of the older meta favoring bowtanking and slowly reversing in most BBs. 

Then we also got a new line focused on high HE DPM, and instantly bumped the Tier VI almost everybody had into a Tier VIII.

:Smile_great:This

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Your problem doesn't seem to be the thermite spewing volcano behind the island so much as the spotter aiding him... eliminate the spotter and suddenly mr.thermite has to get out of position to shoot you... hello devstrike. t8+ he island camping sucks [along with bb he sniping from downtown] but no ones getting devstruck by he cruisers without a detonation. Just carry on and get the bugger out of position or blind his spotters.

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3 hours ago, Comrad_Pravda said:

I feel like a recent problem is that this High Explosive Cruiser spam meta isn't fun. I feel like it is ruining the enjoyment of the game.

So I have been noticing something lately. Have been playing the game since beta, and I have never really felt like this HE cruiser spam has been as powerful as I feel like it is right now. I don't know what it is for sure that caused this to happen. Maybe people have finally become better at aiming than they were for the past 2 years or... maybe there is a new aimbot out or something, but it seems to me that, at this point, cruisers are the most powerful things, and there isn't much that can be done about it other than get a cruiser yourself and play it the way everyone else does, except that if that type of play isn't fun to you then... the game isn't fun. Quit I guess? That doesn't seem good. It seems like we have a cruiser HE spam meta now. I think it probably has a lot to do with the new American cruiser stuff.

To be clear, it seems to me that the most powerful thing to do in the game right now is to play a radar cruiser, sit behind an island corner for hard cover and vomit HE, and fire on everything in range. Make micro adjustments to your position, and then when everything is dead or has run away, move up to the next island. Repeat. I don't really see a counter to this. When thinking about it, a lot of cruisers can get their detection radius pretty low.

How this Cruiser strategy interacts with Destroyers:

If a DD approaches them and spots them, the cruiser can just pop radar, spot the DD and then obliterate them. As soon as the cruiser gets spotted, the game informs the cruiser with that little alert icon that they have been spotted. The DD is already pretty much automatically within radar range because, if the cruiser has the stealth build, the cruiser's radar range is pretty much about the same size as their detection radius, so the DDs can't do their job and spot for fear of getting instantly radar spotted almost the moment they spot the radar cruiser with no time to turn around and get out of the radar zone while keeping the cruiser spotted. Sure the DD can peek around a corner and then if they see a radar cruiser, they can try to pull back and only lose 1/3 their HP to the cruiser, but that isn't really letting them do their job very well. If the DD launches torps, wargaming already designed cruisers to be able to thread the torps, especially if they have hydro. They even made a video showing what their original design intent was:

 

So anyway... the cruiser would be better at spotting than the DD because the cruiser can just drive forward spotting larger ship for their team, and as soon as he gets the little symbol that says he is spotted, he can just pop radar, spot the DD and kill it. Then stop firing, and 20 seconds later go back to spotting bigger ships as his stealth kicks in again. The DDs can't gun down the cruisers. That isn't going to work. If the DD tries to come around a corner and torp the cruiser, the cruiser can notice that he is spotted by the icon, and often times just radar, and gun down the DD, then go back to camping behind the island. The Radio Location Captain skill makes the cruiser know which direction to point to hunt and push into DDs before using radar: wait till the cruiser sees he is spotted. Wait about 10 more seconds while using Radio Location to sail straight at the DD. Pop radar. Kill DD. Thread between the torps that you rightly should have expected. Eat the DDs pathetic damage. Nothing the DD can do. Smoke doesn't work nearly as well in this game anymore because of how many ships have hydro or radar, which ships start having at tier 7, meaning if you want ton ensure there won't be an atlanta or something on the enemy team with radar, you would need to play nothing higher than tier 4 DDs. The cruisers can thread the torps, and the stealth doesn't work for the reasons I said. I don't see DDs as being a very viable class anymore. Why not just play a cruiser? Cruisers have torps too. Some can even stealth launch.

How it affects Battleships:

The cruiser sits behind an island and vomit HE fire on the battleship until it melts. If the battleship tries to flank, the cruiser just reverses slowly around the island playing Ring-Around-the-Rosie, keeping the island between them and the BB while they can hit the BB, but the BB can't hit them back reliably until the BB dies. The BB won't last long enough to catch him. If the BB gets too aggressive, they could get torps in the side depending on the cruiser, so the BB has to swing wide, which gives the cruiser plenty of time to make sure the island is between them and the BB.

How it affects other cruisers:

Obviously this is a mirror match so it is generally balanced, but it is still irritating gameplay - just a bunch of people camping behind islands.

How it affects Carriers:

A carrier trying to drop on a cruiser with defensive fire? Good luck with that. You're probably going to lose more than half your planes. The cruiser will cause panic on the planes, and then thread the torps. AP dive bombers don't work that well on cruisers. HE bombers don't work that well on anything, and the cruiser can just put out the fire. Even if you manage to damage the cruiser, it probably won't be worth it.

Additionally:

On top of all of that, it is unrealistic. Where are these islands in real life that you can hide a 8 story tall building sized cruiser behind that don't have beaches, and don't slope up slowly, but instead go nearly vertical as soon as the island comes out of the water? (Yes I know that does exist in some places in the world, but that is the exception, not the rule. Don't show me pictures and go: "Huh huh! See! Here, and here, and here! Yer wrong! I love proving people wrong with technicalities because what they said is mostly true, but isn't absolutely 100% true all the time because I am autistic!") The point is that isn't how naval combat works. This isn't World of Tanks where we are having this peek-a-boom stuff. They even made a video about it:

 

Except that this actually does work and is pretty much the most powerful thing to do in the game for cruisers. You just don't actually expose your ship around the corner of the island. You shoot over it, or reverse with it in front of you until you can shoot over it.

The thing is, I don't know what to do about this. It is super powerful, and I don't see a way to counter it, but it makes the game... not fun... so... I don't know. Nerf radar so DDs can spot and stealth launch torps at cruisers more? Torps would probably become too powerful then. Smoke would be super powerful too. Get rid of smoke too? Realistically, Wargaming isn't going to do either one of those things, and probably shouldn't. The obvious answer seems to be, "If you can't beat them, join them." Get a cruiser with a high rainbow fire arc, and vomit fire on everything. Us the strategy. It is the best. What if you don't like playing that way though? Sorry? That is what this game is about? Quit? Ehh... Doesn't seem like a good answer.

This meta been around from day one of  Usa CA high ark guns.  Nothing new here. THIS GAME IN NO A SIMULATOR it's an arcade game so ships sitting behind island is normal.

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56 minutes ago, DeadIyArT said:

This meta been around from day one of  Usa CA high ark guns.  Nothing new here. THIS GAME IN NO A SIMULATOR it's an arcade game so ships sitting behind island is normal.

Exactly, and since it’s an arcade it should try to get some balance. I would argue that the current domination of US cruiser show a need for balance.

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Simply put, you have to adapt. Figure out a way to counter them. Saying that they counter you doesn't really say a whole lot. Instead of giving up and telling us to roll a cruiser, devise a way to kill them. My general cure is to pop my spotter plane and rainbow them right back. Sure, US BBs don't have quite as bad of an arc, but the moment they are spotted is the moment one can kill them. Between dying in one shot and dying to a thousand cuts, I'd choose the latter just because it doesn't feel nearly as bad. Either way is simply one being outplayed, though. If you expose yourself to an easy cit from a BB, you made a mistake. If you are so completely helpless to an island camper, you've made a mistake in your angle of attack. Approach from directions with more cover, perhaps, and see if your counter to cruisers can put that fear back where it belongs.

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Oh look, a battleship main is whining that something is capable of damaging him.

 

Have you tried adapting?

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First off, "adapt, overcome and survive" has a limit.  In doing so, if the game's value proposition is in jeopardy, we've gone the wrong way !!!  You can't adapt to a 100% accurate, non game era weapons component that required NO SKILL TO USE; that provides deadly accurate information to an entire team; and, then say "well, you need to adapt"......  That meta situation is a "disruptive technology" that is changing "roles' and Roles in WW2 were the glue that held navies together because they didn't have the technology to "see the battlefield out side of LOS !!!"  Remember, WW2 ship CPT's came from the WW1 and Washington Treaty era and rejected new high tech solutions that were being experimented with....   they used flags, flashing lights and morse code well into the later 1940's !

It's a game so, let's compromise:  One radar = one ship;  only three salvos of torpedoes per ship; and, HE spam starts to jam and degrade accuracy wise after 12 round per turret and like torps, to regain accuracy, a 2:30 cool down does just that.

Balance and maybe, the traditional roles will start to return and then the game we love might "balance out a bit and we'd not have to adapt, overcome or survive !!"

 

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at this point, cruisers are the most powerful

I stopped reading right there ... because the tears of laughter made it hard for me to read.

Lemme know when my cruiser can delete your BB in one salvo and then we will talk. Until then ...

tenor.gif?itemid=10391212

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I played exactly 4 Random games in 2 days, three of them in BBs. I was 2-1 win-wise in the BBs at T6, with 7 kills, 3 of them DDs (2 in smoke). I played a single T10 game in Minotaur (a win) and sank two DDs ( 1 in smoke) and a BB in that one.

Want no radar? Playing mid-tier to T6 will minimize it. Otherwise, live with it. This is an arcade game.

You adapt according to how the meta changes and what ship you use as you play higher tiers. Radar? I have hydro, smoke and 10km torps in Minotaur, with radar as an optional in place of smoke They wont move? Kite and roust them out, especially if they are dumb enough to go astern in order to stay behind cover. My Des Moines has radar and hydro aboard all the time. Same for Worcester.

BBs? Close to optimum range (about 15 to 17 km in most T8 or higher BBs) and pound the visible targets while minimizing the torpedo threat due to range. Support your cruisers against the DD threat in BBs. Most of my high-tier BBs have a secondaries build and captain's skills to match. It works.

I use the concealment module on every high-tier ship that can carry it regardless of type. When you can avoid using your guns mid and late game, concealment is an offensive weapon used in conjunction with torps in DDs and CL/CAs, and harvests many Devastating Strikes in BBs. ''Mistify, mislead, and surprise''...

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36 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Oh look, a battleship main is whining that something is capable of damaging him.

 

Have you tried adapting?

Lol half the time, all you need to do is go somewhere else.

So often I see CLs set up behind an island, only to have no targets, because they picked their favorite island, not one that's useful given the way the game is playing out.

They sit there, just hoping somebody will come into range, until their stationary ships are flanked and sunk by enemies they didn't put themselves in position to shoot.

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6 hours ago, k9kid12 said:

I really dont like this "one AP salvo deleting my CA or stealth torps out of nowhere sinking my BB in one spread" meta

"torps out of nowhere sinking my BB in one spread meta" is nothing more than fallacious hyperbole. Torps have never had more than a single digit hit rate server wide. All of the statistics point towards DDs, including torps, needing a buff.... and that is the only logical conclusion one would get from the data since beta. The devs chose to ignore that data and make choices opposite to it like nerfing IJN torps, Hydro, Radar, bloom. Kind of like the accuracy buff in 2015 that made BB accuracy overpowered, which is why Cruisers have to island hump for fear of these super accurate sniper tanks that also happen to have similar or better concealment in some cases firing at you from 22km+

Rock-Paper-Scissors was the balance model at launch, and balance was far better..... interestingly enough had far less HE spam too.. Now it is the most broken balance I have seen in over a decade of gaming.

Edited by Sbane12
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Just now, Skpstr said:

Lol half the time, all you need to do is go somewhere else.

So often I see CLs set up behind an island, only to have no targets, because they picked their favorite island, not one that's useful given the way the game is playing out.

They sit there, just hoping somebody will come into range, until their stationary ships are flanked and sunk by enemies they didn't put themselves in position to shoot.

In fairness to those cruisers, usually of the radar variety, they have a sprint to their island of choice to avoid being detected.  They have to make their choice with little or no information on where the enemy is.  Once there they are kinda stuck.

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6 hours ago, Comrad_Pravda said:

The thing is, I don't know what to do about this. It is super powerful, and I don't see a way to counter it,

More flanking DDs will make the island campers bug out.

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6 hours ago, Comrad_Pravda said:

 

The more skill a player acquires in this game, the less they are threatened by HE because they've adopted the awareness and tactics to counter it.  You can't see it if you aren't there yet, so keep getting better and playing with better players and one day you will look at HE as nothing more than a DoT version of AP that actually is preferable if you're going to take damage because you can heal 100% of it back.

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11 minutes ago, SgtSpud said:

More flanking DDs will make the island campers bug out.

And flanking BBs just make them disappear....:Smile_teethhappy:

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13 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

In fairness to those cruisers, usually of the radar variety, they have a sprint to their island of choice to avoid being detected.  They have to make their choice with little or no information on where the enemy is.  Once there they are kinda stuck.

Always an issue in any game where you choose a fully defensive play style.

I was really bad for it in WoT. I'd rush my TD to my favorite spot, open for business, only to watch the enemy use the other two lanes, and the only enemy near me is waiting for me to leave that position so he can pop me.

I played Colorado, so got my fill of the map and spawn location dictating my positioning right from the start of the match.

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The OP has a fair point. What he is saying is, though we know not just whence nor wither, where nor why, but we've gotten to the point where the generally accepted "correct" way to play is so backwards, wrong, and completely counter-intuitive to even videos WG has released, and I do believe he's trying to figure out what WG could potentially do to fix it.

 

He's asking "How did we get here?" and  "What can be done to get the game out of this rut which is little fun for anyone but Cruiser captains?"

 

I have a theory: When BBs at Tier VIII+ started to camp and snipe(back in OBT), Cruisers at those same tiers tried to find ways to make themselves completely immune to torpedoes,(in the exact same way as the BBs were) and naturally went with island cover for protection. When radar was added, though, those same cruisers found that it synergized doubly with their playstyle: 1, it helped them counter what they saw as too much torp spam at high tiers(read: torpedo soup) by allowing them to see and obliterate the "problem" DDs fairly quick, and 2, it gave them(too) much impact on the match with a minimum of effort, and a lack of any  real risk whatsoever unless they got seriously flanked, at which times they would have already moved anyways.

 

Ignoring radar, though, soon after, these same Cruiser captains decided "hey, can we figure out a way to counter BBs using the same island-waifu tactic we've been using this entire time? We can, can't we? TAKE THIS, Babyleships!"

 

Now, this tactic was(and it's important to stress that it WAS NOT ALWAYS AS BAD AS IT IS NOW) reasonably balanced from the start, the great Cruiser fire chance being stopped from being OP by so many HE shells shattering(because of course 155s and lower DID tend to shatter, and still do, without having IFHE to make them into meme-monsters) and not doing any innate damage, so a lot of Cruisers, no matter how low the caliber, would use AP on broadside BBs to get some alpha damage in as well. BUT (and this is IMPORTANT TO NOTE) THIS ALPHA DAMAGE COULD BE DEFEATED BY ANGLING, JUST AS BBS DO AGAINST TECH TREE RN CLS.

 

But then along came 0.6.0, and WG decided to overhaul the captain skill tree and offer some new abilities for sale. That was a mistake. First of all, IFHE was not the only controversial skill in the mix, as it was largely overshadowed by what has been ranted on for hours and hours(over something only OP in a 3-man div) and was so controversial that WG had to step in later and nerf it. Those of you who were there will know immediately what I am talking about: Radio Location.

 

Second, Radio Location drew SO MUCH FLAK that the discussion of other potentially game-breaking skills fell by the wayside as everyone and their mother-in-law stood in line to take a potshot at Radio Location. This gave WG the wrong idea.(that IFHE was good or at least not too bad for the game)

 

Third, WG only realized much later just how much potential discussion of the issues surrounding IFHE's introduction to the game had been thwarted by the RPF(that was it's original name) fiasco. To WG's credit, they have realized just how much of an issue IFHE really is, and have concocted numerous nerfs many times to try and get it to behave, but sadly, I would make the case that they have failed. I would say that they are mostly band-aids, because those nerfs aren't an issue for most Cruiser captains. IFHE is still a must-get skill for every Tier V+ CL in the game that has HE. With that being said, I really like WG's creative solution to it with RN CLs. A CL line that doesn't contribute to the HE-spam meta is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, these same RN CLs are now having problems due to the very issue they were designed to circumvent, that is, of course, HE-spam.

 

Minotaur was once the "IN" Tier X Cruiser, but now she is not. With Worchester's introduction, apart from torpedoes, Worchester is better in the current meta than Minotaur in nearly every single conceivable way, but in the most telling way possible, everyone's favorite part of Worchester is that Worchester, unlike Minotaur, has HE.

 

I would say, though, that IFHE even just as a concept was wrong for the game, and here's why: HE is supposed to be the most reliable ammo type, but do relatively tiny damage and have a hard time penning anything that isn't a superstructure. I would argue, then, that anything that allows it to penetrate BOW ARMOR is just wrong, pure and simple. Why? Because at the point we've reached, if a Cruiser(non-KMS) switches to AP against a BB's broadside, we laugh at it as a serious mistake and tell the Cruiser to "git gud, NOOB!" This is not without reason, and I'm pretty certain that it's because HE has been made an end-all, be-all. HE has become that one ammo type that you can't go wrong with firing(because it can't be countered very effectively, if indeed it can be countered at all, WHICH I SERIOUSLY DOUBT), no matter what the situation, and that is 100% unfair and promotes stale, boring gameplay. You want proof? Conqueror spamming HE with the 420s all match and getting decent results with barely a minimum of effort is proof enough.

 

AP has had it's age, but for Cruisers, AP is dead. Long live HE!, they say. Well, no duh. It's been over-buffed a thousand times. No wonder you are so intolerant of switching to AP: HE is just straight-up better against everything except in one or two circumstances in which AP should have been used but said players somehow fail their way to victory using HE instead.

 

You know what? I believe that the day that WG nerfs HE into the ground again will be the very day that people actively take Minotaur over Worchester who have both.

Edited by legoboy0401
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