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Gen_Saris

World of Fires?

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So... why is it that fire has now become the dominant source of damage in the game? I don't remember tales of ships in the WWI to WWII era burning to the waterline. They're made of METAL.

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The pictures I've seen of Pearl Harbor sure had a lot of smoke and fire. That said I fear AP rounds a heck of a lot more than HE

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Strange, I die more often to AP damage dealing ridiculous amount of damage than fire that can be 100% healed

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Fire is has been and will be one of the most dangerous things that can happen to a ship. Fire fighting is taught to every sailor in boot camp and then advanced fire training after boot camp. Steel may not burn but Av gas, fuel oil, grease, propane and acetylene tanks and gun powder do.

Edited by Sovereigndawg
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1 hour ago, Gen_Saris said:

So... why is it that fire has now become the dominant source of damage in the game? I don't remember tales of ships in the WWI to WWII era burning to the waterline. They're made of METAL.

You've never read about the horrific fires suffered by ships in WWII? Really? 

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31 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Strange, I die more often to AP damage dealing ridiculous amount of damage than fire that can be 100% healed

This.  I almost enjoy getting double or triple fires on my Boise.  It makes for easy dreadnoughts if I can survive.

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Shipboard fire emergency response plan at sea

https://commons.wmu.se/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1132&context=all_dissertations

This should educate you on how dangerous fires are at sea.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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1 hour ago, Gen_Saris said:

So... why is it that fire has now become the dominant source of damage in the game? I don't remember tales of ships in the WWI to WWII era burning to the waterline. They're made of METAL.

Wooden decks, gun powder, oil, any number of other flammable liquids and substances. On that front, it's actually kinda right. It becoming the primary damage source is thanks to IFHE and that range and angle mean nothing to HE rounds - log as it has enough pen it auto pens every time with 0 overpen shot and a bonus of starting fires. 

48 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Strange, I die more often to AP damage dealing ridiculous amount of damage than fire that can be 100% healed

 

15 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

It makes for easy dreadnoughts if I can survive

This last part of crzyhawk's post is the issue, as well as the actual math. He says about it on Boise. That's great, Boise takes at max 9% HP per damage, less if he has upgrades, flags or skills, and the ship has a UK super heal, 40% normally, and something like 48% with the flag. Also slightly more like it's only a DD throwing HE at it, while the ship itself is more agile and stealthy. The one drawback Boise has is it has a repair CD more like a BB. And DCP comes off CD 20-30 seconds faster. on most BB's, other than UK ones like Nelson with Zombie repair, the heal is 14% of HP per charge, 16.8 with the flag. It's 10.8% damage per fire (with every single thing to reduce burn time) and 18% without. Meaning 3 fires deals 54% damage, not 27%, a number I might add, that only became that low after changes were made to DD's and CA/L. Meaning 3 fires on your average BB is going to really take 3 charges to fully repair that damage - which, at a 28 second up time, 80 CD time, means you need to be out of the fight for about 4 minutes just to recover that HP from fires alone.

 

Which is the part people aren't getting it's not JUST the fires. DD's and CA/L shared the same numbers as BB's at one point, or at least a higher number, that is until sometime after IFHE came into play, which is actually the real source of the issue. It was one thing when 127 mm guns only punched through 21 mm of armour, when 152's through 25 mm of armour, only a 203 HE round could auto pen the bow/deck of pretty much any BB, but aside from Des they all have pretty low RoF. Even Akizuki, when they used the 1/6 instead of 1/4 pen on the 100 mm guns was only 16 mm of armour pen, not even enough to pen the 19 mm of superstructure. But that meant that anything with DD caliber guns wasn't punching through anything but superstructure on mid tier BB's, let alone higher tier, where as the 152's could punch through a mid tier BB, but not higher tier. Now, 127 mm with IFHE can punch through any BB's bow and deck 27 mm or lower, or basically everything below tier 8, meaning Atlanta's with 14 gun broadside at 600 damage per pen just have to basically hit the Colorado. And even at the 5 second reload and only 7/14 penning that's 4200 damage per salvo, 50400 damage in 60 seconds. 152 mm gun's now pen 32 mm of armour, basically what covers all tier 8+ BB's other than I think it's 6 ships that have areas with more protection than that on the deck/upper hull. Boise has 15 guns, 726 per hit, 7 per salvo, 30k damage per minute, without the fires. And that's one of the slower reloading 152 mm systems. Where I now get to the full point of this - that damage, which helps starts the fires, can only be 50% repaired, Meaning in that Atlanta example 25000 damage sticks, it can never be repaired. Take that Atlanta getting 7 pens per salvo, toss a Nagato at it, Nagato has 65000 HP, every fire deals 6760 (every possible preventive thing)-11700 (nothing at all) damage, 60 seconds is enough time for a single repair, and in that time, an Atlanta can deal sufficient alpha potentially with half it's max salvo penning that it's basically, if not in fact, dead as long as 2-3 fires are started and burn. And that's ONE ship. 

 

All the "fire damage is 100% repairable" people keep missing the actual point, just as some of the complainers do. 18% fire damage was one thing when anything not hitting superstructure was basically a shatter, most of the time you were taking little or no damage from anything but the fires. 5 fires after taking only 10k alpha, not nearly as big a deal. But when your losing at least 2k HP per salvo, usually more, it's a very different story and Wargaming has partially acknowledge this when they changed DD and CA/L fire damage. It's the fact that HE now does reliable damage on impact, while being able to start fires that can take large amounts of HP, on ships with fairly to insanely high rates of fire. 

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2 hours ago, Gen_Saris said:

So... why is it that fire has now become the dominant source of damage in the game? I don't remember tales of ships in the WWI to WWII era burning to the waterline. They're made of METAL.

Before World of Fires it was World of Torps. Now that anything regarding Torps (including torp visibility) in the high tier has been nerf to the stone ages.

Meanwhile its not fires I worry about, its the overly powerful BB AP shells especially at tier X that kills me. Since we are waiting for the CV rework, if there was a consistent CV present at Tier X. The Yamato would be a hell of a lot more manageable then it is now. Fire are repairable, while HE penetrations are not.

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37 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

All the "fire damage is 100% repairable" people keep missing the actual point, just as some of the complainers do. 18% fire damage was one thing when anything not hitting superstructure was basically a shatter, most of the time you were taking little or no damage from anything but the fires. 5 fires after taking only 10k alpha, not nearly as big a deal. But when your losing at least 2k HP per salvo, usually more, it's a very different story and Wargaming has partially acknowledge this when they changed DD and CA/L fire damage. It's the fact that HE now does reliable damage on impact, while being able to start fires that can take large amounts of HP, on ships with fairly to insanely high rates of fire. 

Having watched Kitty Kat and Harugumo crush entire fleets of ships...yes...indeed.  It's funny - hydro won't do it...you'll never live long enough to use it.  No, you need a Radar handy and ready to rock.  

Earlier today, I was on "Tears of the Cruisers" with my North Carolina.  I wanted to hold the east flank (from south spawn)...then the HE rain started.  You know what I did next?  I showed my full broadside to a Montana and an Iowa to tuck tail and run - on purpose.  There is a chance I might survive that (and I did, RNG be praised).  A gunfight with an "fire hose" like Kitty or Wooster?  I'll be lucky if I'm alive long enough for my repair party to even complete an activation, forget the cool down.  I'll dare BB AP all day to avoid the nearly instant trip back to port that HE spam is.

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1 hour ago, WanderingGhost said:

<snip>

Honestly, I'll have some sympathy for BB drivers when my cruisers don't get deleted from any angle.  Until then, welcome to Mt Doom.

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4 hours ago, Gen_Saris said:

So... why is it that fire has now become the dominant source of damage in the game? I don't remember tales of ships in the WWI to WWII era burning to the waterline. They're made of METAL.

It has always been.  About 30% of beta forum dweller complained so hard about it that WG told us : " Fires are fine and wont be changed.  Play a cruiser if you don't like it ". 
It's not that we were stupid about it too, we had very good suggestions to keep cruisers useful with less fire chance.  But WG made their choice.

So you can either :
 - Join the fire nation, understand the mechanics and farm tons of damage as well,
 - Get fire prevention and all fire remedies (ie: consumables, upgrade slots and captain skills) and try you best to mitigate it even if it does not always work... 
 - Or kinda shut up about it (it's sad but if WG does not want to improve their game, we can't make them unfortunately).

A well played fire nation ship is a terror to behold.  My record games in Arizona, Scharnhorst, Ishizuchi and a few others have been from games firing nothing but HE ammunitions.
IMHO, High-Explosive is better implemented it World of Tanks.  It can be very deadly, yes, but usually you want to avoid it if you can.  This is what I was trying to get WG to do in Beta Test.

Good luck.

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52 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Honestly, I'll have some sympathy for BB drivers when my cruisers don't get deleted from any angle.  Until then, welcome to Mt Doom.

This:Smile_great:  a cruiser gets nothing like a BB's Devastating  Strike  and unt the HE Spammers c along the only chance a cruiser had of taking out a BB one on one was if she had torps

 

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3 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

<snip>

 

When DD player ask for BB AP to cause overpen instead of full pen double damage or more, every BB player says DD ask for nullifying BB AP. This is not what DD player meant by that but this is how BB player perceive this complain.

 

Well this is exactly the same here. What I see here is someone who's asking for BB to be immune to HE damage and fire damage. Obviously you can't repair all damage receive, but that 10k fire you receive can be healed. If a cruiser deal 5k HE pen + 10k fire, it means you took 15k total damage and if you can heal 10k of this total damage it means you healed 66% of the damage that cruiser dealt to you. And what 5k damage means for a BB with 97200 HP ? It's just 5% of his HP.

 

Now if you deal 22k damage including one citadel to a cruiser like Zao with only 40k HP, it's more than 50% of his HP gone and his heal won't save him from another 20k damage. We have so many tools to counter fire like BoS, FP, flags... Do we have tool to counter AP ? Do we have tool to reduce AP damage ? No. The current state of the game is fine. CA get punished by BB if they make mistake (or don't ) but CA can make BB life a hell .

 

The screen is from an old Izumo games, a BB notorious for his garbage armor against HE. Slap FP + good positionning and you can easily do the same or even better if you're good at shooting things. And if a ship like Izumo can pull out those numbers then every other BB can do the same or even better.

 

 

 

shot-18.05.16_14.29.58-0077.jpg

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5 hours ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Fire is has been and will be one of the most dangerous things that can happen to a ship. Fire fighting is taught to every sailor in boot camp and then advanced fire training after boot camp. Steel may not burn but Av gas, fuel oil, grease, propane and acetylene tanks and gun powder do.

Paint and linoleum decking burns too.

2 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

Honestly, I'll have some sympathy for BB drivers when my cruisers don't get deleted from any angle.  Until then, welcome to Mt Doom.

I hear that! Fire damage is repairable but not citadel hits.

In the meantime, I dedicate this to you BBs. From Cruisers with love!

Napalm.gif.caf4d09a1c6ae2cc98477cd773c8afff.gif

Edited by ReddNekk

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How to counter fires:

1: Fireproof flags

2: Damage control upgrade instead of steering gears

3: Fire Prevention captain skill

4: Basics of Survivaiblity captain skill

Congrats, fires are now not a problem. Instead it will be HE eating up more of your HP.

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11 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Strange, I die more often to AP damage dealing ridiculous amount of damage than fire that can be 100% healed

 

Whilst it's technically true you can heal 100% of fire damage, unless you'v got the UK super heal the number of fires you can heal per charge of repair party is strictly and severely limited. It's very much possibble if RNGesus blesses the enemy and they managed to stack 6 fires, (your probably going to extinguish the first 3), early on to take enough damage to soak most of your repair parties, and thats going to take a lot of time to do even if you take no other damage.

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OK, I love my Kity..... 

But, the mechanics aren't right...  Fire is one of the worst possible situation on a surface combatant in WW2 and even, today (a lot worse in WW2 though and that is another topic...)

HE spam mechanics are just wrong....  Yes, I love burning CA's and BB's to the keel........but, it feels wrong and is wrong in game play mechanics.  A 105mm M68A1 is actually a naval weapon on a tank....the M48A5's and early M60's fire control were a small copy of a BB's analogue FDC computers.....complete with non-conductive brass internal parts....  The 105mm gun is a powerful modern weapon but, in WW2, it really was "meh" and outright terrible against armor at the ranges we are shooting !

Not only that, these weapons of the fast firing class of ships used high temperature propellants and sometimes, even black powder duplex loads...  the high temps would expand the steel to the point that accuracy went to crap after 10 to 12 rounds (one minute of shooting in many cases.)  After they super-heated, they started to jam and foul.... 

Yes, it is a fun game and I love these new IJN ships but, I just don't feel the HE spam we enjoy needs to be "as powerful as they've deployed it."  There should be a cost of some sort to contain the meta it creates....some sort of "limit" and then, the DD or CL's have to "cool off"......kind of like the reload time between torpedo's.  That, in reality, there wouldn't have been a second, third or fourth salvo....  

A "balance of sorts"......  I know, it's just a fun game but, I really feel WG has gone too far with radar, torpedo unlimited ammo and HE spam.....  My solutions would be, in order:  One radar one ship; only 3 salvos of torps and, after 12 rounds through a turret, every round in sequences of 12 per turret, the  dispersion increases 15% until you lose 50% and only a two minute cool down returns the accuracy less %5 baseline.....  A fair way to have fun and contain the meta's fairly......

Edited by Asym_KS

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Fire on a ship is one of the biggest worries and every member of a crew is trained to fight fires on a ship.  Even today fire can and do destroy ships. Think of fuel mileage of about 10 feet/gal and most modern ships can get as high as 100 feet per gallon or 6meters per liter for a container ship that runs 19kts That takes huge amounts of fuel. I could not image how much fuel it takes to push a Battleship 30kts and then add tons of high explosives to a ship and fire would burn a ship if not explode and blow it into little pieces.

 I think a burning ship in WOWS should end in a big boom instead of just silently disappearing under the waves.

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8 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

. If a cruiser deal 5k HE pen + 10k fire,

If you get that little damage, yeah, but that is the numbers I see maybe if the ship manages to get behind a rock the ship can't shoot over. But when you have slower ships in open water, like lower tiers that can't use some of that stuff, the issue is beyond the 1-2 salvo's. It's when your getting hammered by HE round after HE round that you can't stop because of the fact it ignores angle. It just pens or doesn't. It's part of why we have gotten to this boring hide behind islands nonsense at max range. 

8 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

What I see here is someone who's asking for BB to be immune to HE damage and fire damage

That's not what I want. DD's and Cruisers had the same demands after IFHE was introduced. And I have an exact number I want - 15%. I want the fire damage nerfed to 15% HP max for BB's, would prefer 12%, but 15% is the least likely to cause an uproar from the other classes. And I an tell you the exact effect that will have - 1-2 extra fires can be survived depending on build. I don't want immunity, even I have to admit that what we had where HE rounds were only really useful for the fires and did almost no damage was stupid. But now that most all of them take IFHE, which has upped the alpha, they need to dial down the DoT from fire just a little. It's like adding fires to AP and removing angle bounces. 

 

8 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Do we have tool to reduce AP damage ?

Yes, angling, unless you get overmatched, I don't know Zao's armour but I charge tier 9 and 10 BB's in my Baltimore/Buffalo taking little damage. Even Cleveland can bounce AA rounds. Which, I'm the one guy saying BB AP does need a bit of a nerf so cruisers aren't as easily devastated. And to your point before while a DD is head long or retreating so you have the full length of the ship so the round can arm and deal a full pen, that should happen, but the broadside pens and "double dipping" do need to go. The round of choice against a DD should be HE for most ships, other than maybe other DD's.

This is the ONE "buff" I want for BB's - while advocating they get less AA so CV's can hit them better when alone, that IJN DD's get decent torps back on par with the other nations in spotting that they can really go hunt them again, and that they take an AP nerf so they deal less to the cruisers and DD's.

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