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MAJ_DUNDEE

Smoke Screens............or the one way mirror

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I know smoke screens were use effectively during WW II and they worked quite well....but not as well as they do here. If you set a smoke screen out you mask your position because they can't see through the smoke. On the other hand you shouldn't be able to see the ships your hiding from....If I can't see through it...the destroyer or Cruiser shouldn't be able to  see through the smoke screen either. The DD in this game are way over modeled you would think they are armored like a battle ship the way they take hits. They have to do something about the smoke if you can't see through it the enemy shouldn't be able to either...nothing worse than a Cruiser with smoke out peppering the hell out of you with accurate fire sitting in smoke.

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6 minutes ago, MAJ_DUNDEE said:

if you can't see through it the enemy shouldn't be able to either...nothing worse than a Cruiser with smoke out peppering the hell out of you with accurate fire sitting in smoke.

Watch their guns and fire back, they can't see you from in the smoke unless they are using hydro, Radar or some one else is spotting for them.

 

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Ok. 

A) worst performing class in game.

B). Don't even talk to me about smoke until you address non-LoS Radar in game.

C). Play a few games getting focused at T8 and above, and tell me again how great that DD armor is.

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27 minutes ago, MAJ_DUNDEE said:

I know smoke screens were use effectively during WW II and they worked quite well....but not as well as they do here. If you set a smoke screen out you mask your position because they can't see through the smoke. On the other hand you shouldn't be able to see the ships your hiding from....If I can't see through it...the destroyer or Cruiser shouldn't be able to  see through the smoke screen either. The DD in this game are way over modeled you would think they are armored like a battle ship the way they take hits. They have to do something about the smoke if you can't see through it the enemy shouldn't be able to either...nothing worse than a Cruiser with smoke out peppering the hell out of you with accurate fire sitting in smoke.

It is a side effect of the game engines if one sees a target all can see it.

20 minutes ago, Thornir said:

Ok. 

A) worst performing class in game.

B). Don't even talk to me about smoke until you address non-LoS Radar in game.

C). Play a few games getting focused at T8 and above, and tell me again how great that DD armor is.

A) Is this performing bad? http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20180901/na_week/average_class.html

B) Ok, I am game but we also have to remove firing from smoke unless you have radar in use and firing over islands as ship to ship fire was really line of sight. 

C) Then how is DD experience so close to the other ships? Yes, DD's don't do a lot of damage but they seem to be making it up elsewhere.

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6 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

It is a side effect of the game engines if one sees a target all can see it.

A) Is this performing bad? http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20180901/na_week/average_class.html

B) Ok, I am game but we also have to remove firing from smoke unless you have radar in use and firing over islands as ship to ship fire was really line of sight. 

C) Then how is DD experience so close to the other ships? Yes, DD's don't do a lot of damage but they seem to be making it up elsewhere.

Last time you used that graph, you indicated you didn't really know how it was put together. I certainly don't. I referred you to the Wows-Numbers.com site. What's wrong with those data?

I am fine with not firing out of smoke. People are right, you shouldn't be able to see in or out of it. But if you want realism. then bring back OWSF, because that is actually a RL thing. Gun arcs are gun arcs. If there's something short in the way, shoot over it. If you're saying that no one can receive spotting information for a target visually seen by another, then that's certainly a big game changer.

DD experience isn't so close. top DD is #4 on the list  (excluding rare DDs and Cruisers). Next is #11. And no, they don't do a lot of damage, which along with frags (two categories they are dead last in), that's what XP comes from. They manage to glean XP from capping in spite of the stupid radar meta, and equally poor spotted damage.

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5 minutes ago, Thornir said:

I referred you to the Wows-Numbers.com site. What's wrong with those data?

As w/all the sites they don't have the numbers from people that hide their stats so the data is incomplete & therefore inaccurate (stress on all to indicate I'm not just singling out that 1).

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Just now, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

As w/all the sites they don't have the numbers from people that hide their stats so the data is incomplete & therefore inaccurate (stress on all to indicate I'm not just singling out that 1).

How man people are they? 5%? 10%? 25%?

The data can be perfectly representative even with a significant portion of the population not represented.

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15 minutes ago, Thornir said:

Last time you used that graph, you indicated you didn't really know how it was put together. I certainly don't. I referred you to the Wows-Numbers.com site. What's wrong with those data?

I am fine with not firing out of smoke. People are right, you shouldn't be able to see in or out of it. But if you want realism. then bring back OWSF, because that is actually a RL thing. Gun arcs are gun arcs. If there's something short in the way, shoot over it. If you're saying that no one can receive spotting information for a target visually seen by another, then that's certainly a big game changer.

DD experience isn't so close. top DD is #4 on the list  (excluding rare DDs and Cruisers). Next is #11. And no, they don't do a lot of damage, which along with frags (two categories they are dead last in), that's what XP comes from. They manage to glean XP from capping in spite of the stupid radar meta, and equally poor spotted damage.

It still shows how they are performing in general and it is all we have for overall information, WoWS Stats & Numbers only shows individual ships & players and the over performing ships which dominate the top of the charts for every ship type unbalance anything you are going to get there. DD's are definitely under performing in damage but if that is buffed somehow the other ways they are earning experience will need to be nerfed some.

7 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

As w/all the sites they don't have the numbers from people that hide their stats so the data is incomplete & therefore inaccurate (stress on all to indicate I'm not just singling out that 1).

The people that have stats blocked are probably pretty representative of the rest of the player base so I don't see this as an issue.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

It still shows how they are performing in general and it is all we have for overall information, WoWS Stats & Numbers only shows individual ships and the over performing ships unbalance anything you are going to get there. DD's are definitely under performing in damage but if that is buffed somehow the other ways they are earning experience will need to be nerfed some.

The people that have stats blocked are probably pretty representative of the rest of the player base so I don't see this as an issue.

WoWs numbers shows the averages for each ship across the server. How is that not representative?

I don't know how they'd buff damage without going back and redoing pretty much all the numbers for all the ships and classes. I think they'd have to buff the other things - like spotting damage, or capping and/or reduce the effectiveness of things that suppress DDs.

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1 hour ago, MAJ_DUNDEE said:

I know smoke screens were use effectively during WW II and they worked quite well....but not as well as they do here. If you set a smoke screen out you mask your position because they can't see through the smoke. On the other hand you shouldn't be able to see the ships your hiding from....If I can't see through it...the destroyer or Cruiser shouldn't be able to  see through the smoke screen either. The DD in this game are way over modeled you would think they are armored like a battle ship the way they take hits. They have to do something about the smoke if you can't see through it the enemy shouldn't be able to either...nothing worse than a Cruiser with smoke out peppering the hell out of you with accurate fire sitting in smoke.

They can’t see out of the smoke but ... there’s always a but rule ..if another teammate has you spotted ,the mechanic says they relay this info to the ship in the smoke and Walla .. they can see out of the smoke 

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Just now, Thornir said:

WoWs numbers shows the averages for each ship across the server. How is that not representative?

I don't know how they'd buff damage without going back and redoing pretty much all the numbers for all the ships and classes. I think they'd have to buff the other things - like spotting damage, or capping and/or reduce the effectiveness of things that suppress DDs.

Individual ships, not how the type is performing over all. What we really need for this argument is tier 2 - 4, 5 - 7, & 8 - 10 performance and I definitely don't know how to accomplish that. I agree that trying to make DD's do better damage wise is not a viable thing, I just mentioned that in reference to DD's being so low in damage output. It would be nice to get official data to work with on this.  

3 minutes ago, HMCS_Devilfish said:

They can’t see out of the smoke but ... there’s always a but rule ..if another teammate has you spotted ,the mechanic says they relay this info to the ship in the smoke and Walla .. they can see out of the smoke 

Yeah, one sees all see unless they are too far away to see them at all but even those ships will have them on their mini-map.

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1 hour ago, Thornir said:

Ok. 

A) worst performing class in game.

B). Don't even talk to me about smoke until you address non-LoS Radar in game.

C). Play a few games getting focused at T8 and above, and tell me again how great that DD armor is.

Found the dd main

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27 minutes ago, _1204_ said:

Found the dd main

yeah, you caught me, hiding in plain sight.

Best be careful, those T3 DDs can be dangerous.

Edited by Thornir

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39 minutes ago, Thornir said:

yeah, you caught me, hiding in plain sight.

Best be careful, those T3 DDs can be dangerous.

Your playing dds much higher than tier 3 my friend

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Just now, _1204_ said:

Your playing dds much higher than tier 3 my friend

I am, Yes.

Can't hardly call yourself a DD main without a few T10s and some premiums and stuff.

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3 hours ago, MAJ_DUNDEE said:

I know smoke screens were use effectively during WW II and they worked quite well....but not as well as they do here. If you set a smoke screen out you mask your position because they can't see through the smoke. On the other hand you shouldn't be able to see the ships your hiding from....If I can't see through it...the destroyer or Cruiser shouldn't be able to  see through the smoke screen either. The DD in this game are way over modeled you would think they are armored like a battle ship the way they take hits. They have to do something about the smoke if you can't see through it the enemy shouldn't be able to either...nothing worse than a Cruiser with smoke out peppering the hell out of you with accurate fire sitting in smoke.

Did you know you can see and fire at targets when there are islands in between you and the target, blocking line of sight? Did you ask yourself "Hey. How come I can see the guy behind the island?" Did you know it's because your teammates are spotting for you? Did you know it's the same deal in the smoke?

I am all for removing friendly spotting as long as it's done in all situations.

BB players are severely under modeled in this game.

Edited by chewonit

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2 hours ago, Thornir said:

I am, Yes.

Can't hardly call yourself a DD main without a few T10s and some premiums and stuff.

I am by no means a dd main. But you are. Can see it a mile away

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3 hours ago, _1204_ said:

Found the dd main

A very biased DD main. It is like arguing with a RWN on Facebook, show them facts and they discount or even dismiss them. DD's may need some tweaks but they are doing fine in the two important categories, win rate and experience. If they really were the worst by a large margin even if the win rate was steady their experience would be in the tank.

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1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

A very biased DD main. It is like arguing with a RWN on Facebook, show them facts and they discount or even dismiss them. DD's may need some tweaks but they are doing fine in the two important categories, win rate and experience. If they really were the worst by a large margin even if the win rate was steady their experience would be in the tank.

I asked you to explain them. I dismissed nothing.

There's bias, alright. Two whole categories, huh? Well then. No worries.

Except that...Speaking of dismissals...I noted that for XP, the averages by ship (DD) for the server when compared to other ships were low. A legitimate observation. Your response? From a statistical standpoint, it was unintelligible.

The thing is Brush, you don't PLAY them. Not much, and not beyond T8. You've got 12 DD games at T8. I've got over 300. You've got zero at T9 and T10, I've got 450. They are all I play. So I experience their weaknesses and strengths, first hand. It isn't hypothetical for me. So, bias? Ok. I am trying to improve the game for the average DD player, and I've never shied away from it. But at least I speak from experience.

The people that speak the loudest in favor of status quo - with some notable exceptions - when it comes to radar have the LEAST experience on the receiving end of it. That's not only bias, that's hypocrisy.

 

Edited by Thornir

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10 hours ago, _1204_ said:

I am by no means a dd main. But you are. Can see it a mile away

Still not sure what your point is. It's not like I hide it, or something. I'm very vocal about the negative impact on radar on the game for DD mains. You seem to think it's something I should be ashamed of, or something.

Edited by Thornir
Updated my signature to help out.

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So lately I have been playing a lot of Fletcher and Gearing and I have also tried some Cruiser play with Cleveland and Indianapolis radar. I would like to share some of my recent experience with these ships and their respective tiers of play.

DDs tiers V-VII pretty much die as soon as they run into radar. These players are not expecting radar at these tiers or are inexperienced in avoiding it. Often they will simply sit in their smoke and be blasted by half my team while my team is screened by that DDs very own smoke. I find that some tier VIII DDs will also have the same problems but they do start to wise up to radar more at this level and rely less on smoke.

DDs tier IX and X will normally survive their first contact with radar but probably not their second. They will often receive heavy damage but escape using island cover and speed. Radar is not a death sentence in itself at this level but is more like getting caught in a bear trap and knowing that one of the most likely means of escape will leave you crippled. At this level DDs will probably never sit in smoke and probably limit their smoke use more so then lower tiers as it gives away position and the ability to spot.

Smoke is a double edged sword. You can't see through smoke unless some one is spotting for you, you have hydro/radar, or the enemy is firing at something and their detection radius is expanded enough that the smoke is no longer effective. If used correctly, smoke can hide even a BB if that BB holds fire. If used incorrectly Smoke can be used as a screen for your enemies. Smoke as a tool is more useful for general use at lower tiers but becomes more situational for higher tier use. 

For smoke CLs that is a different subject as I have little experience playing them at tiers where radar is common and I try to avoid them when I am playing DDs since the cruiser smoke is probably hiding something with radar. Cruisers in smoke will generally just sit there and are fairly easy to hit since they are relatively large and mostly stationary. Torping cruiser smoke is always a good idea although they can be avoided if the cruiser has hydro. Worst case will always be a Mino or Worcester in smoke using island cover as they can't be seen or blind torped and they have radar.

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10 hours ago, Thornir said:

I asked you to explain them. I dismissed nothing.

There's bias, alright. Two whole categories, huh? Well then. No worries.

Except that...Speaking of dismissals...I noted that for XP, the averages by ship (DD) for the server when compared to other ships were low. A legitimate observation. Your response? From a statistical standpoint, it was unintelligible.

The thing is Brush, you don't PLAY them. Not much, and not beyond T8. You've got 12 DD games at T8. I've got over 300. You've got zero at T9 and T10, I've got 450. They are all I play. So I experience their weaknesses and strengths, first hand. It isn't hypothetical for me. So, bias? Ok. I am trying to improve the game for the average DD player, and I've never shied away from it. But at least I speak from experience.

The people that speak the loudest in favor of status quo - with some notable exceptions - when it comes to radar have the LEAST experience on the receiving end of it. That's not only bias, that's hypocrisy.

 

Over all as a group the upper tier DD's from what information we have are performing acceptably in win rate & experience even though they lag in other factors. 

I drifted away from DD's long before radar, in fact it was before the captains skill rework, and most of my play in them now is in co-op and mostly in the lower tiers even then. I am not so much arguing for the status quo but changing the game so that land blocks radar/hydro would require a completely new and far more complicated system. That leaves the question of what can be done within the game as it is now? One thought is to make smoke act like a really powerful camouflage with a very large dispersion factor making smoke a viable defensive tool even when radar is in action.

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16 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Individual ships, not how the type is performing over all. What we really need for this argument is tier 2 - 4, 5 - 7, & 8 - 10 performance and I definitely don't know how to accomplish that. I agree that trying to make DD's do better damage wise is not a viable thing, I just mentioned that in reference to DD's being so low in damage output. It would be nice to get official data to work with on this.  

Yeah, one sees all see unless they are too far away to see them at all but even those ships will have them on their mini-map.

Only if they are in just at the limit of there detection does the minimap give a shadow version of the ship , not the best aiming device

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3 minutes ago, HMCS_Devilfish said:

Only if they are in just at the limit of there detection does the minimap give a shadow version of the ship , not the best aiming device

They will show on the mini map if someone has them spotted even if they are beyond the range a ship can see. 

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