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VGLance

You want to get good at being a DD player?

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Learn how to play chess.  That's it.

Master the game of chess.  At least enough to comprehend the parallel between DD's and rooks.

DD's are like rooks in chess.  They are among the most powerful pieces on the board.... BUT... not in the first half of the match.  Then, they are actually not as strong as other ships.  The more pieces (ships) get taken off the board however, the more powerful they become.

The worst DD players in this game barely ever live past 5 minutes let alone 10.  Stop obsessing over caps.  Stop charging into radar range.  Look at your survival rate in your DD's.  If it's below 40% and your win rate is below 50%, dial back the aggression a bit.  That doesn't mean reacting in a juvenile, passive-aggressive way as if dialing back the aggression means driving to J1 and going afk.

What would you rather be?  The team DD that charges the cap, gets radar'd, deleted and the enemy retakes the cap and keeps it... or...

The team DD that let's the enemy DD be the sucker and charge the cap, get deleted, so that you can then retake the cap and keep it?

If you're not alive past 10 minutes, you're not playing DD's properly.  Period.  It's not a debate.  Then again, that can be said about any ship, but it's most critical with DDs.  No other ship type is fast enough to swing around half the map and retake caps with the only remaining enemy ships being too slow to keep pace.  In the first 5 minutes of a match, caps mean NOTHING.  Kills mean EVERYTHING.  You dying early sets off a chain reaction snowball effect forcing the rest of your team to tactically retreat because they lost everything they needed from you in order to push:  spotting, torp screening and area denial.  To the irresponsible and poor players, that looks like a great opportunity to blame the team for being passive and providing no support.

Play your DD like a rook.  Patiently wait to exploit opportunities.  Stay invisible, don't fire your guns if it means that staying hidden will net you a greater future advantage of surprise by sneaking around the enemy front line and dev striking an unsuspecting BB with a full volley of torps.  Look for ways to position yourself where you can keep multiple enemy ships lit for your team mates even if again not firing a single shot.  This is especially critical in ranked where DDs who can keep an enemy team lit the entire match could single-handedly win the match without ever doing a hitpoint of damage.  Focus on keeping the number of enemy ships less than your team's in the first 10 minutes of the match.  Only then once half the ships are cleared from the map begin to open up the aggression and clean up all the undefended caps that are no longer covered by radar.

If this style of play goes too far against the grain for you to the point that you cannot find fun in it, just know that you can't have your cake and eat it too.  Meaning you can't whine and complain about other players not performing in a way that leads to wins when you refuse to do it yourself.

And don't take my word for it, just ask any top player on the server and look up their survival rate in their DDs and win rate and see how wide the gap is if you're struggling with DDs.  The secret is all about being alive in the second half of the battle to still be able to affect the outcome.  It's all about board control.  Just like chess.  You can't control the board if your pieces (ship) are (is) no longer in play.

If you can somehow train your brain to think like a rook when you play DDs your performance will skyrocket.

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Do American Checkers and Chinese Checkers count for anything? Cause I know how to play those two games. 

:Smile_teethhappy: 

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Its been a while since I've played chess.  While the Rook thing is definitely appropriate, I feel like thinking several plays ahead is even more appropriate.  Anticipating your opponents moves and countering them before he makes them.  I just wish that the more passive yet strategically critical DD play - i.e. spotting, etc - was rewarded better.  If it was I suspect it would (perhaps) naturally encourage better DD play.

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9 minutes ago, RedSeaBear said:

Do American Checkers and Chinese Checkers count for anything? Cause I know how to play those two games. 

:Smile_teethhappy: 

They're a step up from Chutes and Ladders and Candyland, so you're good.

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Another point about the "DD = rook" comparison is that rooks only really shine after holes open up in the enemy defense (let's not go into who gets to be the pawns in WoWS). If the position is closed, either in chess or in WoWS, then it's generally a bad idea to throw the rooks/DDs into the fray.

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1 minute ago, Uncle_Lou said:

Its been a while since I've played chess.  While the Rook thing is definitely appropriate, I feel like thinking several plays ahead is even more appropriate.  Anticipating your opponents moves and countering them before he makes them.  I just wish that the more passive yet strategically critical DD play - i.e. spotting, etc - was rewarded better.  If it was I suspect it would (perhaps) naturally encourage better DD play.

That's the problem.  Especially in ranked.  Damage/xp means little with DDs.  It's all about adopting the most efficient strategies to net forward progress up the ladder (gaining stars).  And winning matches gives a huge bonus to xp, not to mention it's a common requirement for fulfilling missions/tasks.  All of which when added together are the rewards that bad players fail to recognize into the equation when they perform the mental math.  Should spotting be rewarded more, yeah, I'd like to see it tweaked slightly higher, but good players are good because they maintain proper perspective and spotting xp/credit rewards are not their motivation to making decisions that lead to wins.  Winning is.

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I kind of think of the DDs more like the ship in Asteroids.

 

032503-Asteroids-Screenshot.jpg.54af6f64c2ce2c45dfcb844a0d4a1e0c.jpg

Kidding. sage advice OP.

Edited by Sovereigndawg
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from what you are saying as for chess analogy I would go with a fianchetto  bishop , waiting for the center open up

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I agree, as DD player ( average to below) it took me a while to start ignoring the chat and not rush in. My scores and game enjoyment improved drastically.

The problem IMHO is that most DD players are expected to be aggressive, when we are not we get Karma slammed, chat berated etc. DD players do not get any points for cap contest, I can deny cap until cows come home but no points will be awarded, I can torpedo wall away the attacking force and deny cap but unless damage is done I am useless according to WoW. I can sit in cap and delay its capture, I can stealth in my IJN and spot, but if team is not focused it goes by wayside. My contribution is not reflected if I play smart unless my team takes advantage of this.

 I usually end up in top 3 spots lately whether win or lose but it is reflection of my teams not my personal achievement. DD is very strong in last 5 minutes and can turn the game, getting there is hard and very team dependent. 

I see it as dual problem of team expectation and the way the game is heavily tilted to damage score and cap capture score. I does not reward defensive play at the beginning of engagement, and DD is one bad move from death so players rush to cap and damage.

 

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3 minutes ago, GalileoAstra said:

I agree, as DD player ( average to below) it took me a while to start ignoring the chat and not rush in. My scores and game enjoyment improved drastically.

The problem IMHO is that most DD players are expected to be aggressive, when we are not we get Karma slammed, chat berated etc. DD players do not get any points for cap contest, I can deny cap until cows come home but no points will be awarded, I can torpedo wall away the attacking force and deny cap but unless damage is done I am useless according to WoW. I can sit in cap and delay its capture, I can stealth in my IJN and spot, but if team is not focused it goes by wayside. My contribution is not reflected if I play smart unless my team takes advantage of this.

 

The problem is more there are three types of players in this game.

  1. Strategic players, who get the larger scale strategy and patience aspects to the game
  2. Wannabe FPS players, who really ought to be playing coop because they want "push forward, shoot stuff" as the primary gameplay
  3. Clueless players, who don't really even fit either of those because they are so bad at the game

You will never make (2) or (3) happy in a destroyer unless you charge in and likely die in the cap. And both 2/3 are very likely to do that themselves.

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i can almost hear the Capt of other ships...screaming...

"Cap A,B,C! do your Job!! DD...i need smoke...do your job DD!" :Smile_sceptic: in other words, i hear this.... "Go kill yourself DD! you are worthless DD..so just kill yourself!  Hide me DD!!...and then go Kill yourself!" 

 

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1 hour ago, RedSeaBear said:

Do American Checkers and Chinese Checkers count for anything? Cause I know how to play those two games. 

:Smile_teethhappy: 

I recommend GO … much better game than Chess 

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I like the rook analogy. But since you brought it up, I'd like to see your source for large scale data of unicorn DD player survival rates. 

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29 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

I like the rook analogy. But since you brought it up, I'd like to see your source for large scale data of unicorn DD player survival rates. 

There a so many DDs out there now, you just can't lump them all into one role/playstyle.

Different detection ranges, some favor guns or torps along with the hybrids, some even have their own radar or hydro-hunting capabilities

The old "don't rush into caps" is a horse that has been flogged to death, very few DD players are unaware of radar now that don't have a healthy respect for it :)

In fact, I'd say it's the opposite - there is a definite unwillingness by many DD players to even approach cap … 

And then, you have the campers who use the DDs like guinea pigs while they farm for their little star.

"Hey, who wants to play DD?  I Know, Let's get Mickey … He'll do ANYTHING" :)

Edited by Commander_367

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2 hours ago, VGLance said:

Learn how to play chess.  That's it.

Master the game of chess.  At least enough to comprehend the parallel between DD's and rooks.

Speaking of Chess,

"A man who is willing to commit suicide has the initiative"   Boris Spassky

Also, Kasparov himself was famous for his sacrifices … sometimes even his Queen :)

If you want to talk Chess, let's talk Chess :)

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1 hour ago, Commander_367 said:

Speaking of Chess,

"A man who is willing to commit suicide has the initiative"   Boris Spassky

Also, Kasparov himself was famous for his sacrifices … sometimes even his Queen :)

If you want to talk Chess, let's talk Chess :)

Yeah, but their sacrifices led to wins because they were luring the opponent to take the bait which led to a greater net positive gain for the eventual win. Their sacrifices were the equivalent of kiting, not forfeiting the game by tipping their king (sinking early and causing the loss). 

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3 hours ago, GalileoAstra said:

 

The problem IMHO is that most DD players are expected to be aggressive, when we are not we get Karma slammed, chat berated etc. DD players do not get any points for cap contest, I can deny cap until cows come home but no points will be awarded, I can torpedo wall away the attacking force and deny cap but unless damage is done I am useless according to WoW. I can sit in cap and delay its capture, I can stealth in my IJN and spot, but if team is not focused it goes by wayside. My contribution is not reflected if I play smart unless my team takes advantage of this.

 

Excellent points. And skilled players do not play to the expectations of below average players and players trolling in chat. Nor do they care 1% about karma because it means nothing to healthy-minded people since it's a broken system tied to zero benefit/punishment based on the number.

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30 minutes ago, VGLance said:

Yeah, but their sacrifices led to wins because they were luring the opponent to take the bait which led to a greater net positive gain for the eventual win. Their sacrifices were the equivalent of kiting … 

A sacrifice is exactly what is means, you lose or give something up for an eventual gain … not a head-fake or kiting

I think we all know what happens to the bait in real life :)

If you want to use Chess as an analogy, stick to your analogy

You give a lot of advice but I'm not sure you play DD much

You want reward without risk - gain without pain, that's not real :)

Edited by Commander_367
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4 hours ago, VGLance said:

Learn how to play chess.  That's it.

Master the game of chess.  At least enough to comprehend the parallel between DD's and rooks.

DD's are like rooks in chess.  They are among the most powerful pieces on the board.... BUT... not in the first half of the match.  Then, they are actually not as strong as other ships.  The more pieces (ships) get taken off the board however, the more powerful they become.

The worst DD players in this game barely ever live past 5 minutes let alone 10.  Stop obsessing over caps.  Stop charging into radar range.  Look at your survival rate in your DD's.  If it's below 40% and your win rate is below 50%, dial back the aggression a bit.  That doesn't mean reacting in a juvenile, passive-aggressive way as if dialing back the aggression means driving to J1 and going afk.

What would you rather be?  The team DD that charges the cap, gets radar'd, deleted and the enemy retakes the cap and keeps it... or...

The team DD that let's the enemy DD be the sucker and charge the cap, get deleted, so that you can then retake the cap and keep it?

If you're not alive past 10 minutes, you're not playing DD's properly.  Period.  It's not a debate.  Then again, that can be said about any ship, but it's most critical with DDs.  No other ship type is fast enough to swing around half the map and retake caps with the only remaining enemy ships being too slow to keep pace.  In the first 5 minutes of a match, caps mean NOTHING.  Kills mean EVERYTHING.  You dying early sets off a chain reaction snowball effect forcing the rest of your team to tactically retreat because they lost everything they needed from you in order to push:  spotting, torp screening and area denial.  To the irresponsible and poor players, that looks like a great opportunity to blame the team for being passive and providing no support.

Play your DD like a rook.  Patiently wait to exploit opportunities.  Stay invisible, don't fire your guns if it means that staying hidden will net you a greater future advantage of surprise by sneaking around the enemy front line and dev striking an unsuspecting BB with a full volley of torps.  Look for ways to position yourself where you can keep multiple enemy ships lit for your team mates even if again not firing a single shot.  This is especially critical in ranked where DDs who can keep an enemy team lit the entire match could single-handedly win the match without ever doing a hitpoint of damage.  Focus on keeping the number of enemy ships less than your team's in the first 10 minutes of the match.  Only then once half the ships are cleared from the map begin to open up the aggression and clean up all the undefended caps that are no longer covered by radar.

If this style of play goes too far against the grain for you to the point that you cannot find fun in it, just know that you can't have your cake and eat it too.  Meaning you can't whine and complain about other players not performing in a way that leads to wins when you refuse to do it yourself.

And don't take my word for it, just ask any top player on the server and look up their survival rate in their DDs and win rate and see how wide the gap is if you're struggling with DDs.  The secret is all about being alive in the second half of the battle to still be able to affect the outcome.  It's all about board control.  Just like chess.  You can't control the board if your pieces (ship) are (is) no longer in play.

If you can somehow train your brain to think like a rook when you play DDs your performance will skyrocket.

Couldnt agree more. I think I lose iq points everytime I see a dd charge cap and get deleted. Dont get me wrong though there is nothing wrong with being on a cap to add pressure but you have to be smart about it and know what ships are near cap.

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12 minutes ago, Commander_367 said:

A sacrifice is exactly what is means, you lose or give something up for an eventual gain … not a head-fake or kiting

I think we all know what happens to the bait in real life :)

If you want to use Chess as an analogy, stick to your analogy

You give a lot of advice but I'm not sure you play DD much

You want reward without risk - gain without pain, that's not real :)

#1. My stats are public so no need to make incorrect assumptions that discredit your argument.

#2. I am making a correct analogy, kiting is sacrificing. You're sacrificing map position and sometimes even caps temporarily in order to gain a better future position.  When DD players derp themselves in less than 5 minutes, they are not making SMART sacrifices. They are throwing the match. Which in chess would be the equivalent of taking out your queen and trading it with their pawn.

Chess grandmasters win more than they lose, if a person's suicidal derp in 5 minutes play style is getting them wins, then more power to them. But if it's not, then they are not making smart trades.

Show me a unicum DD player that says they win by dying consistently even before ten minutes. There must be plenty according to your logic.

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