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ThatSinkingFeeling

Co-op needs major surgery - but how?

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First of all, if anybody feels the overwhelming urge to belittle me for playing Co-op a lot (not exclusively) - keep it in your pocket.  I have compelling reasons for playing Co-op.  But the way Co-op is working has been negating those reasons  - here's how.

Basically, I'm sick.  I can't work any more and my physical capabilities have been significantly reduced by medicines, side-effects, etc.   I like playing Randoms, but things can get too tense there at times, which can cause my hands to 'spaz out' whereby I can't keyboard all that well for a while.  When that happens, no more fun for me or my team.  (That's just one example - my eyesight can also suddenly go goofy on me and I can't focus on ships, so my salvos will more often than not miss.  Again, not much help, more of a hindrance, to my teammates.) So I often resort to Co-op, where there's considerably less tension, salt, etc.  It's more relaxing for me, and while I do have fun playing Randoms, sometimes it isn't an option, especially if I had a recent treatment.  I've made friends playing Co-op and my (tiny) clan plays a lot of Co-op - I don't know if it's for my benefit or not, but while we're too small to participate in clan wars, we do have fun.

Anyway, just now I had a Co-op battle that really frustrated me - not because of bots or teammates, but because of the scoring system.  I think it's safe to say that the most fun we have in this game, regardless of mode, is when we manage to land that perfect salvo - the one that DOESN'T overpen 8 of 9 shells.  You know those - they rarely happen, so when they do it's a brief but special moment that we really, REALLY appreciate.  Well, this time the bots had 2 or 3 ships left and my Scharnhorst was lining up against a BB at close range - I had launched torps, they couldn't miss, and I had fired a salvo of AP point-blank into his waterline.  I was zoomed in and could see the torps almost there, and the shells were just about to land (you could practically see the paint being scratched as they were making contact) when - GAME OVER.  I'm guessing the bots' team were down to 0 points, because they still had ships and we sure hadn't capped anything.  That result was the exact opposite of fun.  I understand the scoring system, but wouldn't it be better if we didn't have such abrupt 'middle-of-the-battle' ending, so to speak?  What can be done?

I've thought about it more than once; while I'm no programmer, and certainly no genius, and my ideas might have holes in them a mile wide - here's one that works in my head, at least.

~ Give Co-op players a choice between being able to cap for a win versus a no cap/kill all format. That way folks who want to just get a quick battle in and don't care about intensity can do so, while folks who want the thing to go on till the bitter end - win or lose - can do so as well.  I'm not implying there should be different rewards based on which format is selected, or that the possibility of an early ending could be a guaranteed win.  But I've had Co-op battles end WAY too early way too often like this, and it's really frustrating when all I want to do is relax and blow stuff up.

Just a side note - with the population of this game as large as it is, across several servers, it's easy to guess that there are a bunch of folks in similar situations to mine who are experiencing similar frustrations.  I'm not asking for special treatment - just for a chance to blow stuff up good - blow it up REAL good.  Something Big Jim McBob and Billy Sol Hurok would be proud of.

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WG would actually prefer you not play co-op.  They want you in HIGH tier expensive ships. I understand but Oh my the players that buy "all in"... all in.  Ok!  Fine with me. With me it's partly about the players who go hog wild and THEN come on here and endlessly carp about how crappy  random is at tier 10, how horribad ranked is....and blah blah. Drag. I have NO problem with players that go high.....but to then endlessly diss it mystifies me. I do not get it. Well I kinda do.  Some feel that anyone in high tiers should be unicorny....and they are mad if thay are not. I say tough. You play a FREE game so deal with it.  Gee, I nasty tonight.:Smile_teethhappy:  If I could I would give myself a -1.  Heh.

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So after all that writing, basically your point is you don't like how matches end early because the bots pose no challenge and die too quickly.

It's hardly a co-op problem, and in itself doesn't indicate that the mode needs 'major surgery'. It happens in PvP too, and I'm sure everyone has had instances where the perfect shot didn't count cause the match was cut short. Sometimes it's a blessing if one's team is just getting massacred like suicidal lambs to the slaughter.

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9 hours ago, ThatSinkingFeeling said:

when - GAME OVER.  I'm guessing the bots' team were down to 0 points,

There was another post about getting rid of the Mercy Rule in co op just today.

9 hours ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

Sometimes it's a blessing if one's team is just getting massacred like suicidal lambs to the slaughter.

I don't really think the Bots feelings get hurt. When you get a good team of bot killers, it happens way more often than it does in Randoms.

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1 minute ago, Sovereigndawg said:

I don't really think the Bots feelings get hurt.

I meant for pvp where your teammates die like flies, and you are outnumbered 3 to 1 after 5 minutes. With the way the points system was designed, it basically acts as a mercy system during those one sided routs.

 

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Just now, Super_Dreadnought said:

I meant for pvp where your teammates die like flies, and you are outnumbered 3 to 1 after 5 minutes. With the way the points system was designed, it basically acts as a mercy system during those one sided routs.

 

No reason to have it in co op, people still get mad when it happens in PVP. It would kind of suck to have your team melt in 6 minutes and you have that one ship that hides for the other 14. So I can see why they have it for PVP but it is not necessary in co op I wouldn't think.

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34 minutes ago, dmckay said:

WG would actually prefer you not play co-op.  They want you in HIGH tier expensive ships. I understand but Oh my the players that buy "all in"... all in.  Ok!  Fine with me. With me it's partly about the players who go hog wild and THEN come on here and endlessly carp about how crappy  random is at tier 10, how horribad ranked is....and blah blah. Drag. I have NO problem with players that go high.....but to then endlessly diss it mystifies me. I do not get it. Well I kinda do.  Some feel that anyone in high tiers should be unicorny....and they are mad if thay are not. I say tough. You play a FREE game so deal with it.  Gee, I nasty tonight.:Smile_teethhappy:  If I could I would give myself a -1.  Heh.

I have to disagree. In co-op, the rewards are much lower and you need premium time much earlier than you do in PvP. Plus we co-op players like to buy stuff just as much as the PvP players. 

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1 hour ago, ThatSinkingFeeling said:

First of all, if anybody feels the overwhelming urge to belittle me for playing Co-op a lot (not exclusively) - keep it in your pocket.  I have compelling reasons for playing Co-op.  But the way Co-op is working has been negating those reasons...

Completely agree.

Here's how to fix this specific situation: https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/168648-can-we-please-have-the-mercy-rule-removed-from-co-op/

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Ah, ok - I wasn't familiar with the term 'mercy rule' - at least where this game is concerned.    I guess that would solve the problem, presumably without too much fuss.  If WG would do it.

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What you need to do is on non 2-cap maps is allow the bots to take one cap so that they don't zero out on points as fast or at all.

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16 hours ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

So after all that writing, basically your point is you don't like how matches end early because the bots pose no challenge and die too quickly.

It's hardly a co-op problem, and in itself doesn't indicate that the mode needs 'major surgery'. It happens in PvP too, and I'm sure everyone has had instances where the perfect shot didn't count cause the match was cut short. Sometimes it's a blessing if one's team is just getting massacred like suicidal lambs to the slaughter.

It is a huge coop problem. In Random there are 12 ships to provide XP unless there is a CV. In Coop there are 2/3 that many. If the game ends early with 2-3 ships still alive, slow BBs may get nothing, especially if WG has punished you by using Two Brothers and you are on the side with no red  ships. 

The best thing to do would be to let the match go on until all the bots have been killed.

 

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8 hours ago, Sovereigndawg said:

No reason to have it in co op, people still get mad when it happens in PVP. It would kind of suck to have your team melt in 6 minutes and you have that one ship that hides for the other 14. So I can see why they have it for PVP but it is not necessary in co op I wouldn't think.

No.  People on the LEADING team get mad when they can't sink the poor souls remaining in a massacre.  As for coop, I expect that it's the same because it probably uses a copy of the same scoring system.  And I further suspect that to change it for coop would not be quite as easy as some might think.

8 hours ago, Taichunger said:

It is a huge coop problem. In Random there are 12 ships to provide XP unless there is a CV. In Coop there are 2/3 that many. If the game ends early with 2-3 ships still alive, slow BBs may get nothing, especially if WG has punished you by using Two Brothers and you are on the side with no red  ships. 

The best thing to do would be to let the match go on until all the bots have been killed.

 

I don't think that it's a problem at all.

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6 hours ago, Crucis said:

And I further suspect that to change it for coop would not be quite as easy as some might think.

I was thinking that also.

6 hours ago, Crucis said:

People on the LEADING team get mad when they can't sink the poor souls remaining in a massacre.

Those were the people I was talking about getting mad the leading team.

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1 minute ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Those were the people I was talking about getting mad the leading team.

Yeah, well, I suspect that the people on the trailing team are happy to have the pain ended.

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I've had this happen to me plenty of times, usually during the "peak" hours when good players get off work and are playing co-ops with high tier ships driven by high points captains.  You can tell when the human team has many good players as the bots simply melt away within the first few minutes due to highly accurate and focused fire from human players.  If you're driving a slow firing BB, you might get a few salvos off and then the game will end.

Sort of irritating but not that big of a deal because you can queue again and jump into another game.

It is a pity that WG has increased the difficulty on many operations (e.g., The Ultimate F.U.), it used to be that if I find the co-op games are too short I can jump into an operation for a longer fight.  The current Cherry Blossom is nice but they are rare now.

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3 hours ago, Sovereigndawg said:

I don't really think the Bots feelings get hurt.

Shh...don't tell that to Kiz...he's been working so hard to bring up their moral...

2 hours ago, Kizarvexis said:

I have to disagree.

Encourage the green bots on your team. They need love too. :D

 

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4 hours ago, ThatSinkingFeeling said:

First of all, if anybody feels the overwhelming urge to belittle me for playing Co-op a lot (not exclusively) - keep it in your pocket.  I have compelling reasons for playing Co-op.  But the way Co-op is working has been negating those reasons  - here's how.

Basically, I'm sick.  I can't work any more and my physical capabilities have been significantly reduced by medicines, side-effects, etc.   I like playing Randoms, but things can get too tense there at times, which can cause my hands to 'spaz out' whereby I can't keyboard all that well for a while.  When that happens, no more fun for me or my team.  (That's just one example - my eyesight can also suddenly go goofy on me and I can't focus on ships, so my salvos will more often than not miss.  Again, not much help, more of a hindrance, to my teammates.) So I often resort to Co-op, where there's considerably less tension, salt, etc.  It's more relaxing for me, and while I do have fun playing Randoms, sometimes it isn't an option, especially if I had a recent treatment.  I've made friends playing Co-op and my (tiny) clan plays a lot of Co-op - I don't know if it's for my benefit or not, but while we're too small to participate in clan wars, we do have fun.

Anyway, just now I had a Co-op battle that really frustrated me - not because of bots or teammates, but because of the scoring system.  I think it's safe to say that the most fun we have in this game, regardless of mode, is when we manage to land that perfect salvo - the one that DOESN'T overpen 8 of 9 shells.  You know those - they rarely happen, so when they do it's a brief but special moment that we really, REALLY appreciate.  Well, this time the bots had 2 or 3 ships left and my Scharnhorst was lining up against a BB at close range - I had launched torps, they couldn't miss, and I had fired a salvo of AP point-blank into his waterline.  I was zoomed in and could see the torps almost there, and the shells were just about to land (you could practically see the paint being scratched as they were making contact) when - GAME OVER.  I'm guessing the bots' team were down to 0 points, because they still had ships and we sure hadn't capped anything.  That result was the exact opposite of fun.  I understand the scoring system, but wouldn't it be better if we didn't have such abrupt 'middle-of-the-battle' ending, so to speak?  What can be done?

I've thought about it more than once; while I'm no programmer, and certainly no genius, and my ideas might have holes in them a mile wide - here's one that works in my head, at least.

~ Give Co-op players a choice between being able to cap for a win versus a no cap/kill all format. That way folks who want to just get a quick battle in and don't care about intensity can do so, while folks who want the thing to go on till the bitter end - win or lose - can do so as well.  I'm not implying there should be different rewards based on which format is selected, or that the possibility of an early ending could be a guaranteed win.  But I've had Co-op battles end WAY too early way too often like this, and it's really frustrating when all I want to do is relax and blow stuff up.

Just a side note - with the population of this game as large as it is, across several servers, it's easy to guess that there are a bunch of folks in similar situations to mine who are experiencing similar frustrations.  I'm not asking for special treatment - just for a chance to blow stuff up good - blow it up REAL good.  Something Big Jim McBob and Billy Sol Hurok would be proud of.

I completely understand playing Co-op only, and the reasons. I'm a 65 year old stage 4 cancer warrior. Age, disease, and side effects from medication/treatment have left me somewhat less 1337 than I once was. There is no shame in accepting unalterable reality.

The mercy rule is Co-op is kind of dumb, because bots feel no emotion, and frankly any human team that's getting roflstomped by the bots almost deserves the suffering.

One of the reasons I quit playing matches with CV's in them was the many times the game came down to two bot carriers with no planes left blundering around aimlessly like two drunk cargo ships with no compass. Yeah, you can exit to port, but the bote you're grinding is still locked in mortal boredom till the score or clock run out.

The system isn't perfect, and WG is trying to make Co-op more challenging with smarter red team bot tactics. But I don't think changing the scoring system is a good idea, since that might create confusion between game modes.

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16 hours ago, No_Sky_Cancer said:

One of the reasons I quit playing matches with CV's in them was the many times the game came down to two bot carriers with no planes left blundering around aimlessly like two drunk cargo ships with no compass. Yeah, you can exit to port, but the bote you're grinding is still locked in mortal boredom till the score or clock run out.

Adding CVs to PvE was a really stupid idea. All they do is steal your kills, torp you, and steal XP from you, while lengthening the game because often you have to hunt the damn things down. Moreover, they don't cap so they will never help you win a tight bot match. I can just see the conversation at WG HQ...

DEV 1: The players largely dislike CVs and don't want them in the game

DEV 2:  We better add them to coop then. 

Why isn't there a button for ADD A  BOT CV in the MM? Let the players themselves decide. If CVs are there for practice, then players can spec properly. But of course they aren't there for practice or variation. 

It seems kind of stupid to have a mercy rule that ends the matches with bots unkilled, while at the same time adding bot CVs that often lengthen matches. 

@J30_Reinhardt's suggestion for an altered cap is a really good idea -- the maps from old T6 Ranked can be used (where is that map, anyway? Why hasn't it been adapted for Randoms?). 

 

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4 hours ago, ThatSinkingFeeling said:

Anyway, just now I had a Co-op battle that really frustrated me - not because of bots or teammates, but because of the scoring system.  I think it's safe to say that the most fun we have in this game, regardless of mode, is when we manage to land that perfect salvo - the one that DOESN'T overpen 8 of 9 shells.  You know those - they rarely happen, so when they do it's a brief but special moment that we really, REALLY appreciate.  Well, this time the bots had 2 or 3 ships left and my Scharnhorst was lining up against a BB at close range - I had launched torps, they couldn't miss, and I had fired a salvo of AP point-blank into his waterline.  I was zoomed in and could see the torps almost there, and the shells were just about to land (you could practically see the paint being scratched as they were making contact) when - GAME OVER.  I'm guessing the bots' team were down to 0 points, because they still had ships and we sure hadn't capped anything.  That result was the exact opposite of fun.  I understand the scoring system, but wouldn't it be better if we didn't have such abrupt 'middle-of-the-battle' ending, so to speak?  What can be done?

My initial reaction is that there is no problem here. What about all those battles that are really close, where an enemy ship dies a second or so before you also die - by allowing shells in the air to hit their target, or leave 10 seconds more for a match to end, or whatever your 'solution' is, its going to result in a lot more draws.  For instance, a ship dies when you're flooding/on fire, so you kill them but you also die.  Draw.  Or you cap, but because there is 10 seconds left, they also cap. Draw. 

I realise that the battles can sometimes end abruptly, but I disagree that it constitues a problem that warrants 'major surgery'. 

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Well I would like to see the Mercy Rule removed from the game, as far as removing CVs (or any other type of ship) NO, I enjoy having the CVs in game bot or human it keeps me alert. Do I get sunk by CVs? Yes, but I also sink them as well. So I am very against removing CVs from Co-Op.

6 hours ago, Kizarvexis said:

I have to disagree. In co-op, the rewards are much lower and you need premium time much earlier than you do in PvP. Plus we co-op players like to buy stuff just as much as the PvP players. 

Well, you can do FTP and Co-Op together, it is slower and you need to keep your signal flags stocked up. But it can be done, I have been FTP for a month now. I have always said that there should be a reduction in servicing Fees for Co-Op and Random, but most disagree with me.

I also strongly believe, it is way past time to have a Moderator who is Pro-PvE, someone who does not have to be notified when our posts are under attack to take action.

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2 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Adding CVs to PvE was a really stupid idea. All they do is steal your kills, torp you, and steal XP from you, while lengthening the game because often you have to hunt the damn things down. Moreover, they don't cap so they will never help you win a tight bot match. I can just see the conversation at WG HQ...

DEV 1: The players largely dislike CVs and don't want them in the game

DEV 2:  We better add them to coop then. 

Why isn't there a button for ADD A  BOT CV in the MM? Let the players themselves decide. If CVs are there for practice, then players can spec properly. But of course they aren't there for practice or variation. 

It seems kind of stupid to have a mercy rule that ends the matches with bots unkilled, while at the same time adding bot CVs that often lengthen matches. 

@J30_Reinhardt's suggestion for an altered cap is a really good idea -- the maps from old T6 Ranked can be used (where is that map, anyway? Why hasn't it been adapted for Randoms?). 

 

With all respect the Co-op players do not largely dislike CV's in Co-op. MANY of us asked for them in MANY threads about how to improve Co-op. That is why they were. WG didn't do it because the players were against it. We asked them to do it over and over on these forums. They were added at the same time the BB's were (ie; filling empty human slots).

It is a much better system now than it was prior where 90%+ of the time the empty slots were filled with DD's. I have seen you play and you are a good player. I do not understand why you dislike CV's so much and have so much trouble with them? They are damage farms and help your post battle rewards immensely when you shoot down planes and can sink the CV. I play every ship type except CV and have zero problem dealing with them. Some of my best games rewards wise are games where there were CV's.

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Can happen in every game mode and is a deliberate decision on WG's part. Killing and damaging more ships=more credits and XP. Ending the game on points is an easy way to limit player rewards. 

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7 hours ago, ThatSinkingFeeling said:

First of all, if anybody feels the overwhelming urge to belittle me for playing Co-op a lot (not exclusively) - keep it in your pocket.  I have compelling reasons for playing Co-op.  But the way Co-op is working has been negating those reasons  - here's how.

Basically, I'm sick.  I can't work any more and my physical capabilities have been significantly reduced by medicines, side-effects, etc.   I like playing Randoms, but things can get too tense there at times, which can cause my hands to 'spaz out' whereby I can't keyboard all that well for a while.  When that happens, no more fun for me or my team.  (That's just one example - my eyesight can also suddenly go goofy on me and I can't focus on ships, so my salvos will more often than not miss.  Again, not much help, more of a hindrance, to my teammates.) So I often resort to Co-op, where there's considerably less tension, salt, etc.  It's more relaxing for me, and while I do have fun playing Randoms, sometimes it isn't an option, especially if I had a recent treatment.  I've made friends playing Co-op and my (tiny) clan plays a lot of Co-op - I don't know if it's for my benefit or not, but while we're too small to participate in clan wars, we do have fun.

Anyway, just now I had a Co-op battle that really frustrated me - not because of bots or teammates, but because of the scoring system.  I think it's safe to say that the most fun we have in this game, regardless of mode, is when we manage to land that perfect salvo - the one that DOESN'T overpen 8 of 9 shells.  You know those - they rarely happen, so when they do it's a brief but special moment that we really, REALLY appreciate.  Well, this time the bots had 2 or 3 ships left and my Scharnhorst was lining up against a BB at close range - I had launched torps, they couldn't miss, and I had fired a salvo of AP point-blank into his waterline.  I was zoomed in and could see the torps almost there, and the shells were just about to land (you could practically see the paint being scratched as they were making contact) when - GAME OVER.  I'm guessing the bots' team were down to 0 points, because they still had ships and we sure hadn't capped anything.  That result was the exact opposite of fun.  I understand the scoring system, but wouldn't it be better if we didn't have such abrupt 'middle-of-the-battle' ending, so to speak?  What can be done?

I've thought about it more than once; while I'm no programmer, and certainly no genius, and my ideas might have holes in them a mile wide - here's one that works in my head, at least.

~ Give Co-op players a choice between being able to cap for a win versus a no cap/kill all format. That way folks who want to just get a quick battle in and don't care about intensity can do so, while folks who want the thing to go on till the bitter end - win or lose - can do so as well.  I'm not implying there should be different rewards based on which format is selected, or that the possibility of an early ending could be a guaranteed win.  But I've had Co-op battles end WAY too early way too often like this, and it's really frustrating when all I want to do is relax and blow stuff up.

Just a side note - with the population of this game as large as it is, across several servers, it's easy to guess that there are a bunch of folks in similar situations to mine who are experiencing similar frustrations.  I'm not asking for special treatment - just for a chance to blow stuff up good - blow it up REAL good.  Something Big Jim McBob and Billy Sol Hurok would be proud of.

The mercy rule isn't really needed for Co-op and does result in a lot of games ending early with a lot of red bot XP left on the table. It would be nice to see that go away for that mode but I have a feeling it would be quite complicated on WG's end to do so. When it happens it sucks but we can just move on to another game. 

WG isn't going to add all kinds of options for Co-op like cap no cap, mercy no mercy, CV or no CV, etc... Co-op will continue to run in a mirror of the options available for PVP modes which are the modes they prefer we play and largely focus their efforts on. As PVE mains we need to just accept this and be thankful we even have Co-op as an option (I would not play this game if it was just PVP) and also be thankful that they continue to make small improvements to it here and there and are now including us in most events and special things.

I started playing WOWS in Dec 2016 and Co-op is MUCH better now than it was then. PVE players need to stop complaining all the time and be glad we have what we do from a company that really doesn't want us in PVE. They are at least trying to make the mode better and include us in things now; if begrudgingly. It is steps in the right direction but constant complaints don't help nor encourage them to continue to expand and improve the mode.

OP - I too am sick and disabled. Not really why I play Co-op over PVP but I can understand why for some it would be. Also a lot of these comments are general and not directed specifically at you. Sort of a mixed bag. I went off on a tangent I guess LOL. My advice is to just focus on playing for fun and if a game ends early or doesn't go great just move on to the next. Chances are that one will be better for you.

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8 hours ago, dmckay said:

WG would actually prefer you not play co-op.  They want you in HIGH tier expensive ships. I understand but Oh my the players that buy "all in"... all in.  Ok!  Fine with me. With me it's partly about the players who go hog wild and THEN come on here and endlessly carp about how crappy  random is at tier 10, how horribad ranked is....and blah blah. Drag. I have NO problem with players that go high.....but to then endlessly diss it mystifies me. I do not get it. Well I kinda do.  Some feel that anyone in high tiers should be unicorny....and they are mad if thay are not. I say tough. You play a FREE game so deal with it.  Gee, I nasty tonight.:Smile_teethhappy:  If I could I would give myself a -1.  Heh.

You know this part (that I bolded) is simply not true, right? Co op players pay their money too, and support the company and the game.   WG probably loves them.

I too have wondered about the dichotomy of players who say that co op sucks, but then turn around and complain vociferously about Randoms Tier 8,(unbalanced)  T10 (toxic), Tier 4 and 5 (CV's treated unfairly, unbalanced) etc. etc  . 

I enjoy the game, in co op mode, and don't enjoy Random due to the things I see teammates say to each other in chat.   So like many others, I'm playing a different game.

I'd add my support to A Thunder's contention about CV's.  I love having them in game, like to shoot down the planes and make the big ships go "boom!".  Lots of fun, which is why I play.

 

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