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Admiral_Gloval

Unbalanced Matchmaking <- this CAN be fixed

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So here is my issue with WOWS.  It is the same issues I had with WOT and the reason I uninstalled WOT years ago and no longer play it (you can look up my stats if you want: (PN DestrosFist, approx 16,00 games, overall WIN 8 of 2,000+ - half on games on an unstable connection.) Anyhoo . . .

So the title I posted eludes to the issue I have with this game. I am competitive. I like to play well and win.  I have a lot of fun with this game when the match is competitive and the outcome is determined by skilled players on either side, win or lose.  <- This makes the game GREAT!

However, more often than not the outcome of the match is determined before it even begins.  This can be readily and easily discerned by the player stats for each respective team as provided by programs like matchmaking monitor, which I use.  Is this 100% accurate in determining the outcome? No.  However, I would estimate that 75-80% of the time it is.  And I would say an equal proportion of that number is obviously unbalanced based on the stacking of player skill with one side clearly superior to the other.

The issues I am highlighting makes the game absolutely frustrating and frankly, not worth my time.  I am posting this in the hopes that this issues will be recognized by WG and eventually dealt with once and for all.  In my view this is THE main issue that has plagued the otherwise amazing games that WG puts out.  

In my view there are other more minor issues.  Like ships that are at least in my view poorly balanced in that they are rather obviously inferior to other ships in their respective tier and even compared to some a tier below them.  Case in point: the Beyern, which I had the displeasure of grinding through, couple with consistently unbalanced match making against my teams made it rather ridiculous to play.

So this is an issue that I have been experiencing with the WG offerings of WOT and now WOWS that I have been rather disgusted with since I started playing these games in the late beta stages of WOT.

My hope is that this will FINALLY be recognized and addressed.  I may give the game another shot and play the ranked matches.  Or maybe I'll play some of the competitors games, which my son switched too.  I don't have time to play clan battles, but pub matches have are just not worthwhile, but since this is the only way to viably "grind" through the tech trees, I really hope this issue is given serious attention.

Lastly, I'll say that there seemed to be a pattern that was fairly consistent and tolerable.  It seemed that every other time I logged in for a serious of matches, or after a certain number of matches the matchmaking balance would shift from favorable to unfavorable and so on.  This meant that I could win most matches by playing competitively, usually with the matches being decided by the more skilled players toward the end of the match, which makes gameplay interesting and fun.  However I can say that I finally decided to do something and post this long overdue comment because the last five or six times I have logged in for a series of matches I have been on the side of teams that were obviously inferior based on matchmaking monitor and as predicted by this information offered no chance of a competitive match and made the game utterly frustrating and pointless.

I took a couple screen shots of a couple of the last matches I played before uninstalling.  Yeah, lopsided losses as predicted . . .

Broken!.JPG

MM Fail.JPG

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So you basically want MM tailored to suit you! Good luck with that!

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Skilled based MM is not going to come as WG has stated repeatedly. Improve your own skills to tilt more battles to your favor or in randoms get a division.

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Skill-based MM would constitute a massive change to WoWS (and WoT), with many potential complications and implications. We would need a new more complex MM, a new rating system for players, the player experience would change immensely with all players tending to 50% winrate, etc. etc. etc. WG has given no indication huge changes like this are in their plans.

In other words, it ain't happening.

I'd suggest adjusting your expectations(sometimes your team is the hammer, sometimes it is the nail)and enjoying WoWS as it is constructed, trying competitive modes(ranked/clan battles), or finding another game.

...

Edited by Dr_Powderfinger

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Lol. Typical responses from two 

1 hour ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

So you basically want MM tailored to suit you! Good luck with that!

You may have reading comprehension issues.

 

1 hour ago, 1SneakyDevil said:

OMG a BBaby whining again...well he uninstalled so that's a plus.

Cute.  Good luck with the maturity issues . . .

 

1 hour ago, RipNuN2 said:

Skilled based MM is not going to come as WG has stated repeatedly. Improve your own skills to tilt more battles to your favor or in randoms get a division.

I don't follow WOWS news so I am not aware that they are apparently dead set against this. Very unfortunate. Especially considering 'balance' is a priority, yet the most obvious element of balance in a multi-player game is to balance skills based on measurable performance categories.  I am always looking to improve my skills, but don't have time to make 'friends' to division with who are skilled.  Funny you hide your stats.  Interested to know if you can back up your comment about improving my skills . . .

 

1 hour ago, Dr_Powderfinger said:

 

Skill-based MM would constitute a massive change to WoWS (and WoT), with many potential complications and implications. We would need a new more complex MM, a new rating system for players, the player experience would change immensely with all players tending to 50% winrate, etc. etc. etc. WG has given no indication huge changes like this are in their plans.

In other words, it ain't happening.

I'd suggest adjusting your expectations(sometimes your team is the hammer, sometimes it is the nail)and enjoying WoWS as it is constructed, trying competitive modes(ranked/clan battles), or finding another game.

...

I do not think it is remotely beyond the capability of the developers to create a matchmaking system that is balanced.  Appreciate an actual somewhat thoughtful response, though your suggestions were addressed in my initial comments.

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The match making distribution is the same for every player over a large enough sample size.

In small sample sizes ( under 25 games ) it is possible to be placed on the lesser skilled team 25 times in a row - but over thousands of games - the distribution will fill the sigma and you will have 25 games with the best team enough to counter your bad runs.  There is nothing new about this, WoT had the same distribution - and it was leveraged by 3 man divisions of players with good to excellent skill.  Since Wot had 15 man teams - the divisions impact was smaller than it is in WoWs 20% of the team comp vs 25% in WoWs.  That's why you often see people like myself who have better win rates than is explicable based on the skill metrics ( though I win  at a high rate solo as well - but playing OP ships with high expected values will reverse stat pad your metrics ).

So, the solution is to division as often as possible.  If I am in a division with two other guys from my clan ( 57% average win rate for the clan )  we can routinely win between 60-75% of our matches - with 80-90% not being unheard of.  That is for tier 4-8 however, when playing tier 9/10 it is much harder to leverage that high a win rate - but it's certainly better than trying to solo at tier 10.  If you are playing solo - sorry charlie - it's just much harder to achieve any consistency that way.  That's not a WoWs problem though, the ball is in your court to find better players to div with or to get so good that you can solo tier 10 at a 60%+ wr. 

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7 hours ago, Admiral_Gloval said:

Funny you hide your stats.  Interested to know if you can back up your comment about improving my own skills.

My stats are for my own use as are yours. I fail to see how they would be tied in any way to the validity of my statement whether I be a below average player or super unicum the truthfulness of improving to influence matches remains. A skilled based mm would reduce the winrate of high performing players and boost the winrate of low performing players and given our small population compared to other games, true parity on teams would be hard or wait times would be atrocious.

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12 hours ago, Admiral_Gloval said:

So here is my issue with WOWS.  It is the same issues I had with WOT and the reason I uninstalled WOT years ago and no longer play it (you can look up my stats if you want: (PN DestrosFist, approx 16,00 games, overall WIN 8 of 2,000+ - half on games on an unstable connection.) Anyhoo . . .

So the title I posted eludes to the issue I have with this game. I am competitive. I like to play well and win.  I have a lot of fun with this game when the match is competitive and the outcome is determined by skilled players on either side, win or lose.  <- This makes the game GREAT!

However, more often than not the outcome of the match is determined before it even begins.  This can be readily and easily discerned by the player stats for each respective team as provided by programs like matchmaking monitor, which I use.  Is this 100% accurate in determining the outcome? No.  However, I would estimate that 75-80% of the time it is.  And I would say an equal proportion of that number is obviously unbalanced based on the stacking of player skill with one side clearly superior to the other.

The issues I am highlighting makes the game absolutely frustrating and frankly, not worth my time.  I am posting this in the hopes that this issues will be recognized by WG and eventually dealt with once and for all.  In my view this is THE main issue that has plagued the otherwise amazing games that WG puts out.  

In my view there are other more minor issues.  Like ships that are at least in my view poorly balanced in that they are rather obviously inferior to other ships in their respective tier and even compared to some a tier below them.  Case in point: the Beyern, which I had the displeasure of grinding through, couple with consistently unbalanced match making against my teams made it rather ridiculous to play.

So this is an issue that I have been experiencing with the WG offerings of WOT and now WOWS that I have been rather disgusted with since I started playing these games in the late beta stages of WOT.

My hope is that this will FINALLY be recognized and addressed.  I may give the game another shot and play the ranked matches.  Or maybe I'll play some of the competitors games, which my son switched too.  I don't have time to play clan battles, but pub matches have are just not worthwhile, but since this is the only way to viably "grind" through the tech trees, I really hope this issue is given serious attention.

Lastly, I'll say that there seemed to be a pattern that was fairly consistent and tolerable.  It seemed that every other time I logged in for a serious of matches, or after a certain number of matches the matchmaking balance would shift from favorable to unfavorable and so on.  This meant that I could win most matches by playing competitively, usually with the matches being decided by the more skilled players toward the end of the match, which makes gameplay interesting and fun.  However I can say that I finally decided to do something and post this long overdue comment because the last five or six times I have logged in for a series of matches I have been on the side of teams that were obviously inferior based on matchmaking monitor and as predicted by this information offered no chance of a competitive match and made the game utterly frustrating and pointless.

I took a couple screen shots of a couple of the last matches I played before uninstalling.  Yeah, lopsided losses as predicted . . .

Broken!.JPG

MM Fail.JPG

The screenshots you provide from matchmaker monitor actually show that your games are pretty closely balanced. Your first screenshot says that your team has an average xp of 1204 whereas the enemy team has an average of 1183. Thats a pretty closely matched game. The second game is 1.2k average vs 1.5k average xp. If you look at the screenshot however, you are playing at tier 10 where a lot of the experienced players reside so that makes sense. I don't see how you think that this is unbalanced matchmaking?

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I conducted an interesting experiment back when I played WOT. I wanted to see whether prem players get any perks when it comes to MM so I purchased two weeks ( 15 days) of prem time. I kept track of my WR 10 days before I started prem, 15 of prem and 15 days following with standard account. ( I played the exact same tanks and tiers equally)
My WR averaged 53% beforehand,  61% with prem, and 51% for the 15 days afterwards.

This isn't exactly scientific but a 7-8% difference in WR was something to take note of. It could have been a fluke, who knows.  I'm not saying this is what happens in WOWS but we really don't know 100% what's going on behind the code. 

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5 hours ago, RipNuN2 said:

My stats are for my own use as are yours. I fail to see how they would be tied in any way to the validity of my statement whether I be a below average player or super unicum the truthfulness of improving to influence matches remains. A skilled based mm would reduce the winrate of high performing players and boost the winrate of low performing players and given our small population compared to other games, true parity on teams would be hard or wait times would be atrocious.

Yeaaaaa . . . no.  Your comment - Pure speculation.  I just seems weird to hide your stats to me. Whatever.

12 hours ago, BiggieD61 said:

The match making distribution is the same for every player over a large enough sample size.

In small sample sizes ( under 25 games ) it is possible to be placed on the lesser skilled team 25 times in a row - but over thousands of games - the distribution will fill the sigma and you will have 25 games with the best team enough to counter your bad runs.  There is nothing new about this, WoT had the same distribution - and it was leveraged by 3 man divisions of players with good to excellent skill.  Since Wot had 15 man teams - the divisions impact was smaller than it is in WoWs 20% of the team comp vs 25% in WoWs.  That's why you often see people like myself who have better win rates than is explicable based on the skill metrics ( though I win  at a high rate solo as well - but playing OP ships with high expected values will reverse stat pad your metrics ).

So, the solution is to division as often as possible.  If I am in a division with two other guys from my clan ( 57% average win rate for the clan )  we can routinely win between 60-75% of our matches - with 80-90% not being unheard of.  That is for tier 4-8 however, when playing tier 9/10 it is much harder to leverage that high a win rate - but it's certainly better than trying to solo at tier 10.  If you are playing solo - sorry charlie - it's just much harder to achieve any consistency that way.  That's not a WoWs problem though, the ball is in your court to find better players to div with or to get so good that you can solo tier 10 at a 60%+ wr. 

Good points, but I do not agree that skill balancing teams could not and should not be implemented. As I said playing in divisions and clan battles would be fine, but I have a busy life. I play WOWS to relax and exercise my competitive side from in a game that has very interesting elements.  Simply put I do not think random matchmaking (if it really is) is the best that WG can do to make the game as good as possible,  I'm not just speaking about my frustration alone at being on the short end of a hopeless team that manages to die off within minutes of engaging the battle.  This sucks to be on the other team that slaughters the opposing team as well.  It just is not competitive and not fun and happens way too often and can be predicted using a third party software. WG certainly has the ability to repair this.  I am stating strongly that they should.  

3 hours ago, Panic512 said:

The screenshots you provide from matchmaker monitor actually show that your games are pretty closely balanced. Your first screenshot says that your team has an average xp of 1204 whereas the enemy team has an average of 1183. Thats a pretty closely matched game. The second game is 1.2k average vs 1.5k average xp. If you look at the screenshot however, you are playing at tier 10 where a lot of the experienced players reside so that makes sense. I don't see how you think that this is unbalanced matchmaking?

Ave experience reflects those who play with premium, which I and many others don't.  It is actually the least relevant metric to consider.  Also that first image shows the other team is solidly stacked with decent (blue color) players.  Very little is given of the other team, but can be assumed probably safely that they do not match up well with a solidly stacked team.

2 hours ago, STINKWEED_ said:

I conducted an interesting experiment back when I played WOT. I wanted to see whether prem players get any perks when it comes to MM so I purchased two weeks ( 15 days) of prem time. I kept track of my WR 10 days before I started prem, 15 of prem and 15 days following with standard account. ( I played the exact same tanks and tiers equally)
My WR averaged 53% beforehand,  61% with prem, and 51% for the 15 days afterwards.

This isn't exactly scientific but a 7-8% difference in WR was something to take note of. It could have been a fluke, who knows.  I'm not saying this is what happens in WOWS but we really don't know 100% what's going on behind the code. 

Interesting. I have often wondered about this since I rarely pay premium.  Just as I do not have time to invest in learning every mechanic of every ship and no time to join a clan or make time to schedule when I can play and division with others, I don't spend a lot of money on WOWS, especially with this issue that i my view hampers the quality of the game. I think it could be better, much better.

 

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6 hours ago, Admiral_Gloval said:

Yeaaaaa . . . no.  Your comment - Pure speculation.  I just seems weird to hide your stats to me. Whatever.

Good points, but I do not agree that skill balancing teams could not and should not be implemented. As I said playing in divisions and clan battles would be fine, but I have a busy life. I play WOWS to relax and exercise my competitive side from in a game that has very interesting elements.  Simply put I do not think random matchmaking (if it really is) is the best that WG can do to make the game as good as possible,  I'm not just speaking about my frustration alone at being on the short end of a hopeless team that manages to die off within minutes of engaging the battle.  This sucks to be on the other team that slaughters the opposing team as well.  It just is not competitive and not fun and happens way too often and can be predicted using a third party software. WG certainly has the ability to repair this.  I am stating strongly that they should.  

Ave experience reflects those who play with premium, which I and many others don't.  It is actually the least relevant metric to consider.  Also that first image shows the other team is solidly stacked with decent (blue color) players.  Very little is given of the other team, but can be assumed probably safely that they do not match up well with a solidly stacked team.

Interesting. I have often wondered about this since I rarely pay premium.  Just as I do not have time to invest in learning every mechanic of every ship and no time to join a clan or make time to schedule when I can play and division with others, I don't spend a lot of money on WOWS, especially with this issue that i my view hampers the quality of the game. I think it could be better, much better.

 

Assumptions are not something I would recommend making.

 

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3 minutes ago, Admiral_Gloval said:

OooooK . . ? Referring to what exactly?

You said that even though you had little information about the other team in monitor that it was safe to assume that they didn't stack against the other team. You will be surprised sometimes what teams will do.

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3 minutes ago, Panic512 said:

You said that even though you had little information about the other team in monitor that it was safe to assume that they didn't stack against the other team. You will be surprised sometimes what teams will do.

No it is quite consistent. The predictability.  Regardless, I just gave it another shot.  Most games (not all) I played well only to find myself in absolutely hopeless situations more often than not resulting in my being the last player alive.  Not to mention ridiculous 'RNG' scenarios that are kinda hard to chock up to bad luck.  That is I believe seven times in a now I have logged in to play in matches where there has been no chance of having a competitive outcome.  Maybe that works for you all.  Not me.  I've wasted enough time with WG nonsense.

Best of luck with this really well packaged mess.   Something is clearly off here. . . 

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On 8/27/2018 at 7:38 PM, Dr_Powderfinger said:

 

Skill-based MM would constitute a massive change to WoWS (and WoT), with many potential complications and implications. We would need a new more complex MM, a new rating system for players, the player experience would change immensely with all players tending to 50% winrate, etc. etc. etc. WG has given no indication huge changes like this are in their plans.

In other words, it ain't happening.

I'd suggest adjusting your expectations(sometimes your team is the hammer, sometimes it is the nail)and enjoying WoWS as it is constructed, trying competitive modes(ranked/clan battles), or finding another game.

...

"Massive change" ... that is the whole point of code and computing, to take in information and create results.  WG should be able to do this with some amount of reasonable outcomes.  The battles I have seen recently are very one sided ... there are exceptions but it is definitely not the rule.  I understand that I will lose a battle by 3-4 ships if the other side plays well, but the number of losses where my team sinks only 2-4 ships has become the norm.  Obviously, someone benefits by this, as you may have, but you must understand that any game has to be fair to be fun.  If average players like my self are discouraged from playing there will be less economic benefit for WG and less development of the game.  This will effect players of all skills, including you.

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What I find interesting is that the MMOs that last 10+ years focus all on balance, not pitting new players or low skilled players against the experts.

One easy simple solution for them is to restrict the variation in tiers.  Either 1 up or 1 down no more of this being a tier 4 facing tier 6 ships or tier 8 facing tier 10.  I don't think any of us would be upset if matches were of 4-6 players those are sometimes the most challenging and interesting.  Not every match has to be 15 to a side, limit the matches to no more than a 1 tier difference and the fun would increase significantly.  This is a simple fix, no huge coding issue, no huge dev issue.  This would fix 90% of the complaints in both WOT and WOWs.

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