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GRUMPASALTY

Kitikaze and Harugumo concern me

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I'm going to try and make this not sound like a rant even though that's what it really is. . .

Kitikaze and Harugumo the newest addition to the Japanese destroyer split branch, I was curious as to just how strong these things are so when I was certain that my team was going to lose I brawled a Kitikaze no torps just guns I was in my Worcester with a 19 point commander and IFHE and I closed to within 1.8 kms of the Kitikaze I was on full HP so was he, and managed to get off about 4 salvo's and in that time he got away almost 10 salvo's I have 12 x 152mm guns with a 4.6 second reload, he has 8 x 100mm guns with a reload of roughly 2.4 second with upgrades and commander skills accounted for, now when you'd expect the light cruiser to win in a gun duel with a destroyer because at the end of the day a cruiser's purpose is to hunt destroyers the destroyer Kitikaze wiped me off the face of the planet. . .

How is it fair that these ships have the ability to not only win a gunfight with the very thing that was designed and built to destroy them, but also have the range and DPM to be able to sink battleships of the same tier just using their guns? And if it doesn't wish to do that it can instead go silent and hunt you just like a regular destroyer would . . . Now I do claim very often that these ships are broken and need to be nerfed because literally nothing in the game other than themselves have the DPM required to deal with the threat they pose and anything that is not another Kitikaze or Harugumo that tries to get close will fall victim to the 32mm of penetration with 100mm guns. . .  

The Yamato for comparison has the biggest guns in the game 460mm it requires these guns to be able to not just penetrate the 32mm bow armor of some heavy cruisers and the majority of battleships at the same tier but also overmatch the citadel athwartship armor however ships like the Iowa class only have 406mm guns which cannot penetrate 32mm of bow armor, instead they can only penetrate 25mm bow armor so in a sense you are telling me that with IFHE a 100mm gun has the same penetration ability of a gun that is 360mm bigger than it. . . And it has this ability topped off with a rapid base rate of fire of 3.0 seconds which can be enhanced with commander skills and upgrades, now call me an optimist but personally I think that's overpowered and either the rate of fire needs to be nerfed to maybe 4.6 seconds just like the Worcester, or the penetration value with IFHE for these 100mm guns needs to be nerfed because although I do feel a bit of sympathy for the DD's in the past not being able to really do anything without IFHE I feel like giving them a base penetration of 25mm without IFHE is giving them a bit too much power, because now even with a tier X battleship like my Yamato I cannot avoid these destroyers scoring full penetration damage on my 32mm bow plating when I am bow on to them.

And that brings me to another issue, these ships have a base fire chance of 5% not all that much but when you consider that these ships can fire a base of 20 salvo's per minute, that fire chance becomes 100% for 1 minute worth of bombardment and so even if they do not set a fire within 20 seconds or even 30 seconds, they will still have a 100% chance of setting a fire within 1 minute. And if I understand anything about this game that theoretically means these destroyers have a guaranteed chance of setting a fire if they can keep their guns on target for 1 minute, and by then the 32mm of penetration with IFHE will have probably killed the target and if it hasn't fires in this game burn the entire ship, not just the area where the fire is present I.E on the deck or around the superstructure which according to the How it Works video's are capable of being damage saturated without killing the ship making me think that these areas of the ship are separate areas of HP. So why is it that fires deal damage to the entire ship because from what I know a ship can theoretically be controlled from the inside even if the super structure is lost.

And it's these things that I have listed that are making me angry that these ships were released even when CC's and supertesters were saying they're somewhat overpowered! 

Flamu was even witnessed as saying to his audience during a live stream "What do I know I only tested the crap out of these ships" which is making me wonder does Wargaming actually listen to their testers? Because if they're saying that I'm thinking more the opposite but I don't know you can decide for yourself.

 

Edited by GRUMPASALTY
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If WG wants to destroy their own game they are doing a good job of it.

 

which is making me wonder does Wargaming actually listen to their testers?"

What Is this, the 28th time in the last 30 ships released this could be said about?   As said previously, Supertesters are either stupid or pointless.   From what Flamu said, it looks like some of them may be stupid, but all of them are pointless.

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it just you. I can do the same thing with akizuki.

At 1.8km your armor cant protect you again 100mm gun. And with fast reload he will win most of time.

The same thing happen with CL vs BB in close range. BB shell will Overpen and BB can't keep the gun on CL, while all AP shell from CL will pen BB from Bow to stern.

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At 1.8km against a CL, I would be using AP shells, and getting those sweet, sweet citadels... How is it the Destroyer's fault that you allowed him access to your citadel?

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They do not concern me. If everyone hadn’t been complaining about DD stealth is OP and DD torps are OP this wouldn’t have happened. Now you get burned down. Careful what you wish for. 

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You are a funny guy.  Why don’t you take light cruiser of your choice and try to gun it out with Khabarovsk in 1.8km range, would it not be something.

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Radar, hydro, insane DFAA, insane rate of main gun fire, great concealment, how much more do you want?

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Lower the he pen to 1/5 and add Def AA or hydro to a separate slot problem solved.I was looking forward to a balanced line for once now they goofed up and we will see a nerf of some kind. We have seen this before have we not.

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Perhaps I made a mistake with the range at which I chose to engage my target, but it still does not change the fact that 32mm of penetration for a 100mm gun is overpowered, because before the penetration buff to the 100mm guns we were lead to believe that it required a 460mm gun to penetrate 32mm bow armor. Because a 406mm gun cannot do what these 100mm guns are doing right now. . . So how is this still balanced?

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Worcester should not be letting a DD get that close to them.  It's a big mistake.  Not just due to IJN 100mm having built in ability to pen the 25mm armor that Worcester and other USN CLs have, but you also are in danger close range of a point blank torpedo drop, which a DD in desperation would happily do.

 

USN CLs should be very cautious with these new IJN DDs.  That built in 25mm HE pen of IJN 100mm will cause damage to rack up quickly.  Worcester should still do alright countering due to her Machinegun 152s, but it's going to be an ugly gunfight if these DDs got nothing to lose.  Just don't show broadside.

 

Also OP, you're talking as if Worcester has 32mm armor.  She doesn't.  She only has 25mm armor.

 

Anyways, I got no problem with the new IJN DDs.  I simply view them as RU DDs, but "Made in Japan."  Go ahead and let a Khabarovsk get close.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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2 hours ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

I brawled a Kitikaze no torps just guns I was in my Worcester

The Worcester doesn't have any torps...but I'm just being a smart [edited] & actually assume you meant he had just fired his torps so you knew it was safe to engage him from that close w/out having to worry about his torps.

But why is this post just have the T9 & T10 ships listed in the title? The T8 Akizuki has the same guns & even the HSF Harekaze has the option (& trust me...just about everybody knows about them & uses them on it so might as well just say it has them too...& it has it w/5.4km detection)…& they have had them for a long time...why the concern now that there's a T9 & T10 version? I'm sure the faster ROF of the T9 & T10 makes them more of a concern but the ability to punish a broadside cruiser or BB has been there for awhile w/the others.

44 minutes ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

Perhaps I made a mistake with the range at which I chose to engage my target

Congratulations on realizing that...the range of the Worcs guns make it able to take that DD out quite easily if you stay at range so you can dodge the insane ROF if these DDs...you couldn't turn fast enough to avoid all those cits from that close whereas he could easily dodge yours by closing the gap faster than your turrets could traverse...while keeping your cits in sight at all times.

 

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1 hour ago, Singleshot said:

it just you. I can do the same thing with akizuki.

At 1.8km your armor cant protect you again 100mm gun. And with fast reload he will win most of time.

The same thing happen with CL vs BB in close range. BB shell will Overpen and BB can't keep the gun on CL, while all AP shell from CL will pen BB from Bow to stern.

yes, you got to close to him.

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Worcester  should eat the new Japanese DD line. Like others have stated, you lost because you picked a range in which all the advantages are to the DD.

The new Japanese line threatens BBs, but I've had zero problems with them in either DDs or CLs, where I've fought them many times. Killed a Kiti in my Lyon even. They are big targets, slow targets, and they can't turn well.

 

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I just started playing Kitakaze. Yes she is incredibly strong and may face nerf very soon.

However, there is no way you lose gun duel against them as a light cruiser. Your durability is just so much stronger than these DDs. 

IJN gun boats have incredible firepower that is almost on-par against light cruisers but they do have large hull an eat a lot of damage. HP pool is high by DD standard but still not anything close to cruiser level who has heal at high tier as well.

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I watched a harugamo go up against a khab in one of my games and watched the khab melt under the fire power. It made me very happy to watch it happen, though the khab did make a mistake of charging it. But it is still scary to see how quick it can remove a battleships armor from 10km away.

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2 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

The T8 Akizuki has the same guns

Yes it does, but it doesn't have enough of them to out DPM every other destroyer in the game and even some cruisers. It doesn't have enough of them to completely wreck a tier 10 battleship at ranges where BB accuracy just completely fails to hit a target that small. Even Yamato the most accurate battleship in the game struggles to hit both the Kitikaze and Harugumo because they hang at ranges in excess of 12 kms where the shells take roughly 3 seconds to land where they were aimed which is enough time for the destroyer to make a sudden move which just throws your aim off, and while you reload for 30 seconds that destroyer is going to be picking you apart piece by piece with a 2.4 second reload (with commander skills and upgrades) and 32mm of penetration; And when you take another shot all it has to do is turn a mere fraction away from it's current course to throw your aim off again, there is no counter for these two destroyers in particular whereas the Akizuki doesn't have what I am now referring to as area denial DPM so it can be potentially destroyed in the same scenario as listed above. 

Akizuki is balanced with the same guns because it does not have as many of them. 

Edited by GRUMPASALTY

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I have to agree with the initial poster on dd gunner.  I am close to being an average player and khabrovsk out gunned me in a Mass BB at 10kms.  I understand being torpedoed, but outgunned by a dd is ridiculous.  Even if I suck at least my secondaries should be able to outgun a dd.  

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43 minutes ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

Yes it does, but it doesn't have enough of them to out DPM every other destroyer in the game and even some cruisers. It doesn't have enough of them to completely wreck a tier 10 battleship at ranges where BB accuracy just completely fails to hit a target that small. Even Yamato the most accurate battleship in the game struggles to hit both the Kitikaze and Harugumo because they hang at ranges in excess of 12 kms where the shells take roughly 3 seconds to land where they were aimed which is enough time for the destroyer to make a sudden move which just throws your aim off, and while you reload for 30 seconds that destroyer is going to be picking you apart piece by piece with a 2.4 second reload (with commander skills and upgrades) and 32mm of penetration; And when you take another shot all it has to do is turn a mere fraction away from it's current course to throw your aim off again, there is no counter for these two destroyers in particular whereas the Akizuki doesn't have what I am now referring to as area denial DPM so it can be potentially destroyed in the same scenario as listed above. 

Akizuki is balanced with the same guns because it does not have as many of them. 

Akizuki - 8 guns in 4 turrets. 4 torps in one launcher.

Kitakaze - 8 guns in 4 turrets. 6 torps in one launcher.

Harugumo - 10 guns in 5 turrets. 6 torps in one launcher.

Aki and Kitakaze have the SAME guns, point blank. All three play the SAME role of area denial. If YOU think they are OP, they I’m sorry, but you need to get better. They are nothing more than a CL. So please QQ about these new boats, for the first time since CBT a couple of IJN DDs are finally good at something for Christ’s sake, and people keep QQing them because OMG I f’d up and done let them get too close where my imaginary 32mm armor (wo only has 25mm mate) wouldn’t save you. Let me get that close in my Grozovoi, or god forbid let a Khabarovsk get that close, you’ll die just as fast.

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4 hours ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

Flamu was even witnessed as saying to his audience during a live stream "What do I know I only tested the crap out of these ships" which is making me wonder does Wargaming actually listen to their testers? Because if they're saying that I'm thinking more the opposite but I don't know you can decide for yourself.

You watch Flamu. Didn't you watch Flamu's comment on the Worcester? His opinion: "Worcester, ultimate mid range specialist. Bad at long range due to slow shells, bad at close range brawls due to no torpedoes."

You let a DD get within 2km of your Worcester, which should never be the case with both radar and hydro available. Any DD(and frankly, any BBs and CAs) will kill you at that range, regardless of your actions.

It is legitimate that the new IJN gunboats might be too good with their guns, but it isn't going to out trade a Worcester in a 1v1 pure dpm battle assuming equal skills.

Edited by CCloak

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The Kitikaze to me is better then the t10. Both of these DDs punish bad players and when sailed by good players do well damage wise. Both ships are easy to counter and can be focused down easy and torped back to the lobby. 

 

Did we  need DDs such as these? Prolly not, but they are here and they are not to bad.....

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My main concern with Kitakaze is how quickly I can get it right now. I haven't directly encountered them in the Worcester or Hindenburg as of yet, you can thank ranked for that, but just playing Akizuki and having a blast with it has been enough to tell me not to trifle with these new gunboats. 

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6 hours ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

Perhaps I made a mistake with the range at which I chose to engage my target, but it still does not change the fact that 32mm of penetration for a 100mm gun is overpowered, because before the penetration buff to the 100mm guns we were lead to believe that it required a 460mm gun to penetrate 32mm bow armor. Because a 406mm gun cannot do what these 100mm guns are doing right now. . . So how is this still balanced?

460mm to penetrate 32mm bow armor? That's AP Overmatch. Don't compare AP penetration, and HE Penetration, the two are not the same.

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Oh, this is too funny. IJN has had crap for years, they finally get a couple of good ships and it’s, “good god! DDs aren’t allowed to damage me! They are supposed to sit in smoke and let me pad my stats by radaring them!”

i have one, I am currently doing better than server averages in it, and am enjoying every minute of it.

ADAPT. 

#ADAPTTOTHIS!

 

awww...down vote. Someone needs their double standard, I guess. 

Edited by Thornir
Needed a hashtag.
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