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Cruxdei

REAL differences of t-61 and z-39

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so i  see the ships are VERY similar,4 guns(different caliber and reload ok),good torps,hydro and ok concealment i think.

but a tier6 ship gameplay is not exactly the same from a tier7 ship,different threats for example,a t-61 fight against less radar,z-39 need to understand radar range and the ships that use it so he can  contest caps.

i want to hear the opinions of the owners of those ships,who is the best ship for you?the t-61 or the z-39 and why?

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There’s pros and cons to both ships.

Concealment is slightly better on the T61 or seems like it anyways

Z-39 has bigger caliber guns and has better pen but slower turret traverse

Both have useable torps and the hydro is good for cap contesting especially against a smoked enemy DD. If he’s smoked you can pop hydro, creep up on him, smoke up and take shots/launch torps chasing him out of cap

T-61 is a better trainer for your tier 9/10 German DD’s as it has the same caliber and feel guns

T-61 benefits from BFT whereas Z-39 doesn’t due to gun caliber. Tier 9/10 can make use of BFT also

If you are going to keep tier 8 DD Z-39 is a good trainer for this ship

I have both but my Z-39 feels slightly gimped due to Capt Pts use although it’s workable. The T-61suits the tier 9/10 Capt skills better

 

Sure someone else may be able to confirm some of this with more detailed info. Unfortunately I’m not in front of my system for that!

Both good ships mate but I prefer the T-61 for the Capt training and slightly more forgiving MM

Good luck with which ever you choose mate! o7

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yeah t-61 looks good,even if the guns are less workable than z-39(anemic he shells and stupid ap penetration).

but now a new ship is on my mind too,aigle have good guns too and ok torps,while she lacks hydro,i don't want to dance with her,her guns hurt a lot,or so i heard.

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T-61 and Aigle are both (IMO) 'Gudbotes'.  I do like the guns on the Aigle.  Aigle (and to an extent the Z-39) has turrets that turn to slow for a non-Russian DD.  They're Gnevny slow.  With the Aigle being worse.  Aigle has the largest caliber that can still take advantage of BFT.  T-61 can also.  Biggest advantage now is that the T-61 can train captains for a nation that has a full line.  The Aigle at present has no siblings (though Le Terrible' could change that).  

At T6 also consider Gallant.  Use it to train captains for the upcoming RN DD line. 

Z-39 will see radarpalooza if it's middle or bottom tier.  T-61 will only see it if bottom tier, or middle tier if an Atlanta or other radar premiums show up.  

Edited by ZARDOZ_II

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I do far better in Z39 than in T61. I think it's two things: I simply fit Z39 better, and I don't feel T61 is nearly as good as people hyped it. More T61 doesn't do well against uptiering, whereas Z39 pretty much laughs at it.

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I have both and I like them a lot, but I lean more towards Z-39. T-61 has that sweet 61.2 second torpedo reload but her guns are kinda meh. Z-39's 81 second torpedo reload aint bad and her guns can do a serious damn-damn on other DDs and can be pretty rough on Cruisers. Plus Z-39 seems to be tougher than T-61 and she also uptiers better than T-61.

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18 hours ago, Cruxdei said:

yeah t-61 looks good,even if the guns are less workable than z-39(anemic he shells and stupid ap penetration).

but now a new ship is on my mind too,aigle have good guns too and ok torps,while she lacks hydro,i don't want to dance with her,her guns hurt a lot,or so i heard.

The Z-39 guns are  a horror show. Bad enough when you are in own-tier matches, but they are miserable when you are uptiered. It needs at least a second whacked off its ROF to be viable, and another km of range at least. 

I play mine as a torp boat, since the guns will do little damage. If you have collectors instincts, get it, but otherwise your money is better spent on other boats. 

Edited by Taichunger
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Quote

I do far better in Z39 than in T61. I think it's two things: I simply fit Z39 better, and I don't feel T61 is nearly as good as people hyped it. More T61 doesn't do well against uptiering, whereas Z39 pretty much laughs at it.

I think they are both roughly equivalent, tier-for-tier. Both are good.

T61 - funbote

T-61 can never live up to it's hype. It's good, but Anshan-level good - not Nikolai/Gremy/Guilio/Belfast good. The best T6 DD? Perhaps - but that's not exactly stellar competition.

The problem is it's "good" trait was it's torpedoes, so everyone* (*ie BB mains) lost their minds.  And it's unlikely anyone will go "oops, maybe I did make too big a deal over T61" - remember the Asashio?

It's a torpedo boat that isn't automatically useless at everything else. Apparently any torpedo boat that isn't gimped with severe drawbacks is overpowered.

T61 is, for me, more fun - as faster reloading torpedoes means you feel more involved, rather than waiting around a la Z39. Also, unlike IJN DD, you don't feel like a free lunch to every other DD.  It's also a tier 6, which means you face 7s in most games.

Z39 - toughbote

Z39 lives in the shadow of its overhyped sibling. But for me, it's a more reliable boat.  Mostly - due to the huge chunk of HP. The Kidd has taught me to appreciate extra HP.

It's more boring - low gun dpm, and slower-loading torpedoes. But it's concealment is competitive and the 22,000 hitpoints (with SE) cannot be overstated.  It has the hitpoints of a Tier IX DD, heck more than some T5 cruisers she will routinely face. That's 5200 more than the 16800 the T61 has. Comfortably more than most Tier VIIIs.

In a meta where you are spotted more often than not, a Z39 can survive the early exchanges and have plenty of HP left to survive to the endgame where it, like all DD, becomes more valuable with capping and torpedo attacks being much easier as the teams are whittled down.  In a DD, survival = winning, and Z39 is a survivor. Very competent, but not exciting.

Both are good. The T61 is more flashy and fun, but the Z39 is just as good, in a tougher more workmanlike way. It is also a top tier bully more often, due to its favourable MM.

 

 

 

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I found a happy medium Captain that I use with both T61 and T39. 

I can't express how good the 35% vigilance is on a German DD. I have never died by torpedoes with the T61 / Z39 due to the fact I can see them torps way out. On the T61 It's 2.82 vs 3.81 guaranteed detection of enemy torps. On the Z-39  3.12km vs 4.21km With this skill you can spot most ships and torpedoes equally. 

Not only will it help you survive torpedo attacks. Your ALLIES will love you when you can spot enemy torpedos (Or deep water torpedos) heading right toward them and have a 30+ second notice to react... So it's not only good for you, but you become a incredible support boat for your allies.

1 Priority Target

1 Preventive Maintenance 

2 Last Stand

2 Adrenaline Rush

3 Torpedo Armament

3 Demolition Expert

3 Vigilance (35% due to unique Commander)

4 Conceal Expert

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2 hours ago, Bravo4zero said:

There’s pros and cons to both ships.

Concealment is slightly better on the T61 or seems like it anyways

Z-39 has bigger caliber guns and has better pen but slower turret traverse

Both have useable torps and the hydro is good for cap contesting especially against a smoked enemy DD. If he’s smoked you can pop hydro, creep up on him, smoke up and take shots/launch torps chasing him out of cap

T-61 is a better trainer for your tier 9/10 German DD’s as it has the same caliber and feel guns

T-61 benefits from BFT whereas Z-39 doesn’t due to gun caliber. Tier 9/10 can make use of BFT also

If you are going to keep tier 8 DD Z-39 is a good trainer for this ship

I have both but my Z-39 feels slightly gimped due to Capt Pts use although it’s workable. The T-61suits the tier 9/10 Capt skills better

 

Sure someone else may be able to confirm some of this with more detailed info. Unfortunately I’m not in front of my system for that!

Both good ships mate but I prefer the T-61 for the Capt training and slightly more forgiving MM

Good luck with which ever you choose mate! o7

I think that this pretty much sums it up.

The T61 is a better trainer for high tier German DD captains because it has the smaller guns, similar to the tier 9-10 German DDs.  In truth, you can still stick your T9-10 captains into a Z-39, but know that certain skills won't function in the Z-39.

 

On a side note about premium DDs in general, one thing that's a little frustrating, though there's no easy solution (except one) for it.  And that's that high tier DDs usually have turrets that traverse fast enough to not require the Expert Marksman skill.  But when you put that same high tier captain into a lesser tier premium DD, many of those lesser tier premium DDs are low enough in tier that their turrets do traverse slowly enough to make the EM skill at least desirable.  About the only way I can see getting around this is to develop a second DD captain strictly for your lower tier premium DDs, if you have them, of course.  It stinks to put a 19 point Russian DD Khab or Grozzy captain into a Okhotnik, Gremmy, or Leningrad and be stuck with glacially slow traversing turrets.

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15 hours ago, Crucis said:

About the only way I can see getting around this is to develop a second DD captain strictly for your lower tier premium DDs, if you have them, of course.  It stinks to put a 19 point Russian DD Khab or Grozzy captain into a Okhotnik, Gremmy, or Leningrad and be stuck with glacially slow traversing turrets.

Pretty much what I did. I use one capt for Ok, Grem, Lenin, and Kiev. Used another for my T9-10 Russky DDs when I still played them. 

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Z-39 requires you to play smart, it's not a plug and play boat. You need to know when to shoot and how to hit your targets. 

T-61 is....special to say the least.

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T-61 nicely balanced.

Z-39 Suffers from Punk Rocker Syndrome...

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Does not the Z-39 get 5km hydro and T-61 get 4km?  Could be useful in caps.  Concealment is the same.

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Z-39 gets T7 MM, but gets T8 concealment. 

T-61 will struggle in T8 due to access to concealment module while Z-39 will remain competitive in T9.

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On 8/26/2018 at 4:45 PM, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

I do far better in Z39 than in T61. I think it's two things: I simply fit Z39 better, and I don't feel T61 is nearly as good as people hyped it. More T61 doesn't do well against uptiering, whereas Z39 pretty much laughs at it.

Same here.  I wish I could quantify it but I do significantly better with the Z-39.  Even so, the T-61 is no slouch.

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1 hour ago, HazardDrake said:

Z-39 gets T7 MM, but gets T8 concealment. 

T-61 will struggle in T8 due to access to concealment module while Z-39 will remain competitive in T9.

That and the Extra HP does not hurt.

Is the fire chance of the 150's that bad?  I see it has a 12% fire chance whereas a Sims has a 5% chance.  Now the Sims shoots every 3.3 seconds with the same 4 guns as the Z-39 does every 7.5 seconds so that would pump the fire chance to 12.36%.  That is almost the same but I am told the HE is very bad with Z-39.

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T61 is the playstyle you will see in upper tiers. I use my Z23 skipper, and it is a gunboat build. My Z23 has the 128s.

Z39 is a good boat but I have have to get gud with the 128s. As a player trainer, I go with the T61

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T-61: Excellent DPM with both guns and torpedoes. Low health pool relative to other German DDs.

Z-39: Poor main gun DPM (although those 150s can really mess up cruisers who show broadside), average torpedo DPM, HUGE health pool and great 5km Hydro.

Basically, the T-61 is a hunter killer. It's a ship designed to really hurt other ships. But it's poor on support.

The Z-39 on the other hand, can take a serious number of hits and laugh it off, and it's great Hydro range makes it great for pushing into caps as long as it's supported by it's team. But it's gun DPM is poor and it needs to act real careful like around enemy DDs it can't Hydro out of existence.

Fortunately, both of these boats have amazing concealment, not only by German DD standards, but also when compared to other DDs.

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T-61 is slightly a better torp bote, because the reload is amazingly fast for the size of her torp tubes. But her guns feel a bit wonky when penning things. 

And despite Z-39 being unable to take advantage of BFT & AFT, I think Z-39 makes a better gun bote because of above reason. Those 150's can really punch holes when you need them to, while T-61 can let you down at times. That's just me though. And the fact that Z-39 was once a Tier VIII bote but kept the Tier VIII upgrade slot makes her far more capable, if you ask me.

But both are equally good ships in the end, IMHO. They're both hybrids that can do either or both of gunbote and/or torpbote.

My 2 doubloons.

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On 8/26/2018 at 7:41 PM, Merlox said:

1 Priority Target

1 Preventive Maintenance 

2 Last Stand

2 Adrenaline Rush

3 Torpedo Armament

3 Demolition Expert

3 Vigilance (35% due to unique Commander)

4 Conceal Expert

Demolition Expert is a subpar choice, and Vigilance is straight up not needed because of hydro. I suggest taking Survivability Expert and Superintendent instead.

3 hours ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Does not the Z-39 get 5km hydro and T-61 get 4km?

Yep, 5 and 4 km.

 

P.S. Z-39 gets better MM, that alone makes it better in my eyes. But both DDs are good.

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6 hours ago, vak_ said:

Demolition Expert is a subpar choice, and Vigilance is straight up not needed because of hydro. I suggest taking Survivability Expert and Superintendent instead.

Yep, 5 and 4 km.

 

P.S. Z-39 gets better MM, that alone makes it better in my eyes. But both DDs are good.

Just for the record, what order would you rate the following:

Z-39 / Sims / Akatsuki / Leningrad / Jervis

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6 hours ago, vak_ said:

Demolition Expert is a subpar choice, and Vigilance is straight up not needed because of hydro. I suggest taking Survivability Expert and Superintendent instead.

Yep, 5 and 4 km.

 

P.S. Z-39 gets better MM, that alone makes it better in my eyes. But both DDs are good.

I built mine for the 128s, and went

Priority Target

Last Stand

Survivability Expert

Concealment

BFT

(Adrenaline Rush)

(Radio Location)

Don't have the last two yet. When I get to the Z-52 reload will be about 3 seconds. The torpedoes are up when I need them and it works. 

 

 

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On 12/28/2018 at 5:04 PM, vak_ said:

Demolition Expert is a subpar choice, and Vigilance is straight up not needed because of hydro. I suggest taking Survivability Expert and Superintendent instead.

Yep, 5 and 4 km.

 

P.S. Z-39 gets better MM, that alone makes it better in my eyes. But both DDs are good.

The amazing Hydro stacks with the buffed vigilance. As soon as you turn that on you just shut down literally every Torpedo DD in your region for a few minutes as you have a 9.45 km bubble around you for any torpedo detection instead of  7. And when you don't have it up, well. it's like having a tiny British hydro on at all times.

Reason why I prefer Demo Expert is that the Z-39 does not benefit from BFT as the T-61 does. They are just great fire starters, so why not stack that effect further. 

The ships are super tanky as it is, so I found that was an ok skill to swap out, Super Intendent is a valid thing to swap for either Demo, or Vigilance if you're not using the special German commander.

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