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Ramsalot

Question about Moskva armor

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So, just had a ranked battle where my Moskva arrived to distant cap first and got focused.  Among other ships shooting at me there were two Yamatos and one GK, turning away would be suicidal so I stood my ground, eventually backing up far enough to fade and reposition.  I was under fire for a while, and had over 1.7mil potential damage on the end screen, got Dreadnought as well.  Distance was far enough, I would say between 10-15km, and I maintained pretty good angle to those BBs.  Only one shell caused citadel damage.  How can this be possible?  When I look at the ship in the armor viewer, I don't see anything exceptional.  Yet, the armor scheme seems to be very effective.

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Moskva's deck and side armor is 50mm and there is a 50mm extended belt on the bow of the ship as well. Due to the large amount of 50mm armor sections it makes Moskva quite tanky  against AP when angled properly. German 203mm HE with its 1/4 pen and BB caliber HE will deal quite a bit of damage though.

Yamato's can't overmatch 50mm armor. So either rng screwed with the BBs shooting at you or they're bad shots for not aiming at your weak points. Or they could of switched to HE, heresy for a BB I know, but you'd probably of been dead if they did.

Edited by Phaere

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2 minutes ago, Phaere said:

Deck and side armor is 50mm and there is a 50mm extended belt on the bow of the ship as well.

Yamato's can't overmatch 50mm armor. So either rng screwed with the BBs shooting at you or they're bad shots for not aiming at your weak points.

The thing is, I easily eat bow on citadels on Nelson when facing half competent T9 BBs, angling or not.  And in the armor viewer Nelson seems to have a thicker armor plating protecting the citadel.  So I just don’t quite get how it works.

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12 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

The thing is, I easily eat bow on citadels on Nelson when facing half competent T9 BBs, angling or not.  And in the armor viewer Nelson seems to have a thicker armor plating protecting the citadel.  So I just don’t quite get how it works.

The Moskva has armor that prevents overmatch so when angled at autobounce angles can withstand any shell. The Nelson can get bow overmatched and cant really angle the front of the citadel all that well so gets citadeled. Personally the only time I got bow citadeled by a higher tier BB was a Musashi at 4km.

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14 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

The thing is, I easily eat bow on citadels on Nelson when facing half competent T9 BBs, angling or not.  And in the armor viewer Nelson seems to have a thicker armor plating protecting the citadel.  So I just don’t quite get how it works.

Frontal bulkhead armor is not even factoring into the equation here.  Nelsons bow is just 1 giant fat 25mm section so of course its going to be over matched by 15" or larger guns.

 

HN4b4NK.jpg

Overmatch follows a caliber /14.3 rule so a 46cm shell can only overmatch (which means it can penetrate armor regardless of any angling) 32.1mm of armor. As you can see in my image Moskva has a extended forward belt which is 50mm thick meaning Yamato cannot overmatch this armor if it hits it at auto-bounce angles.

For most ships auto-bounce angles starts at 45 degrees and becomes auto-bounce at 60 degrees of angle. When bow-in or properly angle the 50mm belt section of Moskva's bow will always be in auto-bounce angles.

SO5z8zM.jpg

Moskva deck and side armor are also 50mm:

rIdQtaM.jpg[/img]

Lg9DvqX.jpg[/img]

 

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What Phaere said.  Battleships throwing AP shells will simply bounce unless they hit one of the following:

  • The small section of upper bow armour that's 25mm.  This includes the deck of the bow.
  • The gun barbettes.  These are thick and if they're not hit flush, the shell will simply ricochet.
  • The superstructure. Note that AP shells that hit here are likely to simply overpenetate for minimum damage.

The raw thickness of the citadel is less of a concern in this case because Moskva is too busy preventing shells from even getting a chance to test the citadel in the first place.  On top of this, because of the extended 50mm waterline belt, shells coming in at a shallow angle will strike too high to penetrate the citadel of Moskva.  It's only with a bit of a plunging fire from lower velocity shells (most notably American 406mm AP) that Moskva really needs to be concerned about taking citadel hits at anything but very long range through the bow. 

Against high explosive, she's again very tanky with only her bow and superstructure left vulnerable to non-German cruiser-caliber HE.  With IFHE, you need a minimum of a 234mm HE shell to penetrate the 50mm sections of Moskva's armour.  Without IFHE, you're looking at a 305mm gun.  Fires aren't terribly effective at damaging high tier cruisers either, though it's one of the few recourse available to punish a bow tanking Moskva for some ships.

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Thank you, this makes more sense now.  I am just used to disregard the green hull armor as useless, but apparently 50mm on Moskva makes a big difference.

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9 hours ago, Phaere said:

Frontal bulkhead armor is not even factoring into the equation here.  Nelsons bow is just 1 giant fat 25mm section so of course its going to be over matched by 15" or larger guns.

 

HN4b4NK.jpg

Overmatch follows a caliber /14.3 rule so a 46cm shell can only overmatch (which means it can penetrate armor regardless of any angling) 32.1mm of armor. As you can see in my image Moskva has a extended forward belt which is 50mm thick meaning Yamato cannot overmatch this armor if it hits it at auto-bounce angles.

For most ships auto-bounce angles starts at 45 degrees and becomes auto-bounce at 60 degrees of angle. When bow-in or properly angle the 50mm belt section of Moskva's bow will always be in auto-bounce angles.

SO5z8zM.jpg

Moskva deck and side armor are also 50mm:

rIdQtaM.jpg[/img]

Lg9DvqX.jpg[/img]

 

love what you did there! +1

if you dont mind could you please draw the correct aiming point for yammy vs mosk when bow on for mental midgets such as mesell?

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but the whole front nose of Moskva (including the deck) is only 25mm, so Yamato sure can pen that and I have got cit by Yamato well angled a few times before, so your case is just lucky

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58 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

but the whole front nose of Moskva (including the deck) is only 25mm, so Yamato sure can pen that and I have got cit by Yamato well angled a few times before, so your case is just lucky

she got a nose job two updates or so ago.

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12 hours ago, Ramsalot said:

The thing is, I easily eat bow on citadels on Nelson when facing half competent T9 BBs, angling or not.  And in the armor viewer Nelson seems to have a thicker armor plating protecting the citadel.  So I just don’t quite get how it works.

Nelson is a Cruiser Killer, her guns, armor, and especially Repair Party makes her exceptionally good in withstanding HE gunfire, fires, and come out looking like new.

 

It's against Battleships where she starts falling apart.  No Tier VII BB can resist the common BB gun calibers of their tier, they are the last BB tier like this.  Check also her armor, especially the bow.  Even 380mm AP will penetrate, OVERMATCH, citadel Nelson, even from the bow, angled, whatever.  Let's not even discuss what 406mm will do from Colorado, 410mm from Nagato -> Izumo, or the silliness of 460mm in Tier IX via Musashi.  She eats pens, citadels from 380mm+ BB AP shells.  I've been bow on, angled against Bismarcks, which I consider to have garbage a.f. guns, and Bismarck will tear through Nelson like a German Shephard does someone's arm  / leg.  And that is piddly 380mm.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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56 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

she got a nose job two updates or so ago.

they only updated the 2 narrow armor belt, the whole nose is still weak 25mm, check the armor layout in game

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Moskva gets to be impossible to damage because of how strong it was IRL, unlike the failed Des Moines. Amirite?

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5 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

Moskva gets to be impossible to damage because of how strong it was IRL, unlike the failed Des Moines. Amirite?

That's the thing with Paper Ships.  You can whip anything up!

"What does the Ouija Board say?"

"Moskva... 50mm... armor..."

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1 hour ago, Happy668 said:

they only updated the 2 narrow armor belt, the whole nose is still weak 25mm, check the armor layout in game

yup  hes right  the for end deck and for end armor plating is 25mm.... the cent section of the nose (arrow) is 50mm, so if that Yamato knows where to aim.... its gonna hurt.,..

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