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Brhinosaurus

Destroyer XP in T10 ranked

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It seems to me that, like in Clan Battles, destroyers in tier 10 ranked play have important jobs to do, but not ones that tend to earn very much XP.  As such it is very rare for a destroyer to save its star in a loss, even with a particularly good game.  This is less of an issue at lower tiers where conditions allow for destroyers to do proportionately more damage.

Agree?  Disagree?  If you agree... does it matter? Should each class have roughly the same xp earning potential?

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To be certain, there are a lot of ways to reward good and proper team play that the game just does not acknowledge with regards to earning credits and XP. This is true for every ship type, but most especially for destroyers and, perhaps even more, carriers. Many others have made good cases (including numerous Community Contributors) for the fact that this game focuses far too much on damage and kills, when it comes to rewards, than any other factor including playing the objective and doing support activities like spotting, tanking, and other things. Even capping bases or taking cap points don't get the same kinds of rewards they used to.

So I agree, and yes, it very much does matter that all avenues of advancement and contribution should give some measure of reward. This need not manifest in exact, or even similar, earnings potential for the varied ship types—just that they be in roughly the same ballpark.

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I agree to your first paragraph. 

Destroyers do get some exp as cruisers and battleships. Provided they do the same amount of damage.

That said, primary job of destroyer at tier 10 ranked is spotting and cap contesting.

Spot, let team destroy, then get caps when safe. Win, no need to worry about saving star.

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So far my favorite destroyer is my Republique.  Scout, contest caps. Push flank and punish broadsides.

160k damage, high caliber. Assist in capture, 120k in damage taken, 1.6 m tanked.

Survived. Oddly a hindenburg on my team got 1st place and high caliber too...

I finished 2nd.

4 battleships, 2 cruisers and a destroyer for both sides.

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11 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

I agree to your first paragraph. 

Destroyers do get some exp as cruisers and battleships. Provided they do the same amount of damage.

That said, primary job of destroyer at tier 10 ranked is spotting and cap contesting.

Spot, let team destroy, then get caps when safe. Win, no need to worry about saving star.

This is a nice sentiment, but the fact is that the way matchmaker puts groups together, there are games in which your team is completely outclassed.  The ability to save your star now and then is what allows people to eventually rank out with less than unicum win rates.  Hell, some people have ranked out with win rates below 50%.  Unfortunately, in the long road to ranking out, the ability to save your star in a defeat is just as important as your ability to contribute to a win.  And there, destroyers are disadvantaged. 

 

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Agreed. 

This might be the worst season for DD ranked play in all WG history? 

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6 hours ago, Brhinosaurus said:

This is a nice sentiment, but the fact is that the way matchmaker puts groups together, there are games in which your team is completely outclassed.  The ability to save your star now and then is what allows people to eventually rank out with less than unicum win rates.  Hell, some people have ranked out with win rates below 50%.  Unfortunately, in the long road to ranking out, the ability to save your star in a defeat is just as important as your ability to contribute to a win.  And there, destroyers are disadvantaged. 

 

Only because damage is the top xp earnings. 

So a destroyer can do it by being the #2 damage dealer and getting 2 solo caps.

But, rarely is that the case, because you are trying not to be spotted and deleted. 

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7 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

Agreed. 

This might be the worst season for DD ranked play in all WG history? 

It is.  I suspect many DD mains have switched to the Worcester because it is effectively the new meta ranked DD.  There's simply no benefit to running DD's in matches other than the ability to accrue cap and spotting ribbons which sometimes leads to a victory.  Saving a star is truly a rarity.  You might be able to get away with it in matches with lessor skilled players.  But, once you hit the mass of decent folks grinding down to the lower ranks?  It's a frustrating experience...more so than the usual ranked salt.

Ironically, my second sentence has actually contributed to the ineffectiveness of DD's this season.  And, I'm betting as folks figure it out, it will only get worse.  I was proclaiming this season as the Worcester Meta for awhile both in these forums and on Reddit.  A vast majority simply wouldn't believe it.  Believe it now.  On the flip side, BB's with deck plating above 33mm are seeing a renaissance of sorts.  The Yammy, Montana, and GK are decent picks in this meta.  The Republique and Conqueror are damage pinatas.

The meta changes each ranked season.  This meta is telling us that we may have jumped the shark on the abundance of the current radar ships in how it interacts with DD's.  Some variance within the preceding sentence seems to be in order.  But, I am but a lowly, humble observer and do not wish to engage in the perpetual radar forum debate.  I just observe and report. 

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7 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

This might be the worst season for DD ranked play in all WG history?

Nope just like the last season. If you play a DD you can almost forget about saving a star on a loss. The BBs hang back and snipe racking up damage numbers while the DDs do all the real work and get very little XP for the effort.

Once in a while you get a team that works together and that does not matter because you win and advance but, it can be a rare thing to happen.

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8 hours ago, Brhinosaurus said:

It seems to me that, like in Clan Battles, destroyers in tier 10 ranked play have important jobs to do, but not ones that tend to earn very much XP.  As such it is very rare for a destroyer to save its star in a loss, even with a particularly good game.  This is less of an issue at lower tiers where conditions allow for destroyers to do proportionately more damage.

Agree?  Disagree?  If you agree... does it matter? Should each class have roughly the same xp earning potential?

This is true at all tiers and every game mode. DD play is mostly thankless and poorly rewarded compared to other classes.

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10 hours ago, Uber_Ghost said:

It is.  I suspect many DD mains have switched to the Worcester because it is effectively the new meta ranked DD.  There's simply no benefit to running DD's in matches other than the ability to accrue cap and spotting ribbons which sometimes leads to a victory.  Saving a star is truly a rarity.  You might be able to get away with it in matches with lessor skilled players.  But, once you hit the mass of decent folks grinding down to the lower ranks?  It's a frustrating experience...more so than the usual ranked salt.

Ironically, my second sentence has actually contributed to the ineffectiveness of DD's this season.  And, I'm betting as folks figure it out, it will only get worse.  I was proclaiming this season as the Worcester Meta for awhile both in these forums and on Reddit.  A vast majority simply wouldn't believe it.  Believe it now.  On the flip side, BB's with deck plating above 33mm are seeing a renaissance of sorts.  The Yammy, Montana, and GK are decent picks in this meta.  The Republique and Conqueror are damage pinatas.

The meta changes each ranked season.  This meta is telling us that we may have jumped the shark on the abundance of the current radar ships in how it interacts with DD's.  Some variance within the preceding sentence seems to be in order.  But, I am but a lowly, humble observer and do not wish to engage in the perpetual radar forum debate.  I just observe and report. 

Haragumo.....

Mini rooster with better stealth and 12 km torps.

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There is no reward for keeping ships spotted.  There ought to be.

The reward for a solo cap should be good. The reward for each subsequent solo cap should be exponentially higher. Sake of argument, let's say you can get 300 base XP for a solo cap. A second solo cap should net 650. A third, 1000. A fourth should be 3000, with a heroic achievement. That's right, a dd that gets 4 solo caps should receive 4950 base xp (at high tier), wanna fight about it? 

Solo cap in a standard battle should be a minimum 1500 base xp.

Last, I want 25 base xp for every second that I'm radared.

 

 

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23 hours ago, Uber_Ghost said:

It is.  I suspect many DD mains have switched to the Worcester because it is effectively the new meta ranked DD.  There's simply no benefit to running DD's in matches other than the ability to accrue cap and spotting ribbons which sometimes leads to a victory.  Saving a star is truly a rarity.  You might be able to get away with it in matches with lessor skilled players.  But, once you hit the mass of decent folks grinding down to the lower ranks?  It's a frustrating experience...more so than the usual ranked salt.

Ironically, my second sentence has actually contributed to the ineffectiveness of DD's this season.  And, I'm betting as folks figure it out, it will only get worse. 

Been thinking about this.  If this is true, we should soon expect the DD pool in ranked play to consist of two groups of players:

1. Bad players that are too dumb to realize DDs are the worst choice for reward-to-effort ratio

2. Good players that know bringing a DD is a dumb idea but are too stubborn to play something else or not good enough in the other classes.

 

And you could start seeing a high disparity of skill between DDs in matches.  

 

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I find that many DDs overestimate the value of their contributions. Sure maybe you capped twice, that's cool, but if you cap something your team can't hold there's not much value in that; The same holds true for spotting, if your team isn't in a position to take advantage of it there is no value.

I've been playing mostly DDs the last 2 seasons and I find that when you make the right decisions for the team you less often need to save a star, which more than makes up for those times when some camping BB manages to beat your xp on a loss.

Tl:dr If you're trying to save your star in a DD there's a good chance that you've already made mistakes.

Edited by Sethanas
Your - you're typo

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5b840973af993_starsaving.thumb.png.2a2e85dabd38b026a75b1f353b48396f.png

This chart shows the effect of ability to save your star on number of games it will take you to rank out starting at Rank 10 (40 stars).  The more games you win the less important it is to save your star in losses.  If you can maintain a 60% WR or better against quality competition you'll rank out soon enough regardless.  But if you're a little more mortal you start to see how important saving that star is.  

https://na.wows-numbers.com/season/id,9/?order=current_rank__asc#leaderboard

Browse the players that achieved rank 1 last season.  Obviously many of the players who ranked out had very good win rates.  But there's also quite a few players with win rates below 52% who ranked out, often with not that many battles.  Those are your master star savers, who achieved greatness not by contributing to victories all that often, but by making sure they were the best player on the losing team as often as possible.

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On 8/26/2018 at 8:42 AM, Uber_Ghost said:

I suspect many DD mains have switched to the Worcester because it is effectively the new meta ranked DD. 

Actually, Zao is the hidden gem this season.

Radar is becoming pointless because there are no DDs playing ranked. Played 3 games last night. Zero destroyers.

Fighter plane is more valuable now and those 12k torps are so handy. Long range shots are easy too.

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39 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Actually, Zao is the hidden gem this season.

Radar is becoming pointless because there are no DDs playing ranked. Played 3 games last night. Zero destroyers.

Fighter plane is more valuable now and those 12k torps are so handy. Long range shots are easy too.

I've found success with DDs in past seasons of Ranked, but may give Zao and Hindenburg a go this time around if radar is too prevalent.

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On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 1:23 AM, BlailBlerg said:

Agreed. 

This might be the worst season for DD ranked play in all WG history? 

I don't know...my 15/19 record in the Shima so far isn't too shabby.  I think folks either don't really know how to play DDs or they try to do too much and, perhaps, those are one in the same.  Patience is a virtue in DD play.  Except Khab, of course. That ship is a spiked club best used gratuitously.

Comp

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I'm 25W/13L so far in the Z-52 and Yueyang.  I've ranked near the bottom of the team in XP every game but I'd like to think my record indicates that I am contributing to victories.  It may just be random luck over an insufficient sample size, however.  I expect that as I move up in rank my win rate will start to drop off and at that point my inability to ever save a star is going to be the end of me.  I'm not a very good cruiser or battleship player so my options are limited.

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So is the trade off that effective (however you want to define that) DD play can influence WR with the trade off that controlling the tempo vs farming damage?

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DDs have to choose between doing damage and doing what’s necessary, frequently  

I find that I rarely if ever top my team in XP when  we win, and frequently do when we lose. I am not playing any differently. I want to win. Fek PR. Fek WTR. If what I am doing matters to the team, I am towards the top. If not, I’m not. 

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3 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

I've found success with DDs in past seasons of Ranked, but may give Zao and Hindenburg a go this time around if radar is too prevalent.

The advantage with Zao is that your up front alpha strike and long reload means you can do several things. 

Fire right before going behind an island. 

By the time you are reloaded after your first salvo, you are halfway through your 20 second gun bloom time. If things become too hot you loose little by just waiting another 10 to go dark. 

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On 8/25/2018 at 11:13 PM, Brhinosaurus said:

This is a nice sentiment, but the fact is that the way matchmaker puts groups together, there are games in which your team is completely outclassed.  The ability to save your star now and then is what allows people to eventually rank out with less than unicum win rates.  Hell, some people have ranked out with win rates below 50%.  Unfortunately, in the long road to ranking out, the ability to save your star in a defeat is just as important as your ability to contribute to a win.  And there, destroyers are disadvantaged. 

 

But what are you advocating? How do you increase DD XP within the current state of the game? 

Do you want to increase the XP awarded for capping? Then if I cap in a cruiser I’m guaranteed to save my star. Watch people run to the free cap at game start.

Spotting? XP for sailing around while your torps reload? Ok, cruisers are going to get a lot of that too. 

You want a special XP modifier for DDs in ranked? Not sure I like that. Here are some points for clicking battle.

I agree the XP currently rewarded is underwhelming. Not sure how to fix this though.

 

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2 minutes ago, XiaoXiaoNi said:

But what are you advocating? How do you increase DD XP within the current state of the game? 

Do you want to increase the XP awarded for capping? Then if I cap in a cruiser I’m guaranteed to save my star. Watch people run to the free cap at game start.

Spotting? XP for sailing around while your torps reload? Ok, cruisers are going to get a lot of that too. 

You want a special XP modifier for DDs in ranked? Not sure I like that. Here are some points for clicking battle.

I agree the XP currently rewarded is underwhelming. Not sure how to fix this though.

 

I'm honestly not sure.  Step one is simply identifying if this is a problem or not.  Since nobody has come back with "LOL go play a cruiser instead noob" I guess it seems like it maybe is a problem.

Wargaming has figured out that all damage done is not equal, and rewards it accordingly.  Doing 20k damage to a battleship is going to earn you substantially less xp than doing half that amount to a destroyer.

Likewise all capping and spotting is not equal.  Grabbing the free cap at the start of the match is not an indication of skill or boldness and should not be rewarded.  On the other hand, if both teams have dug in around one contested cap, finding a way through the radar to grab that cap can very well win the match.  In an ideal world that action would be well-rewarded.  Similarly, sometimes spotting just means you happen to be the closest ship when the battleship started firing.  Sometimes it's providing match-changing intel to the rest of the team.

I don't know if there's a way to assign intelligent, scaling xp to these kinds of tasks or not.  

 

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6 minutes ago, Brhinosaurus said:

I guess it seems like it maybe is a problem.

I agree it’s totally a problem.

I think it’s linked to tier more than anything though. At Tier X everybody has huge heals and health pools. A team effectively has to kill 150% of a Yamato or 140% of Zao’s HP pool.  That’s a lot of XP to assign damage wise. The preponderance of which is not assigned to DDs. Thus I feel this is really skewing the XP result in the end. 

Earlier seasons of ranked predate me. I’d be interested to hear from older players about the effect of the heals on XP. It seems like Lo Yang and even Sims were good save your star boats back in the day. Smaller health pools at those tiers with fewer heals. 

With my earlier post, I just mean to say it’s really hard to change the way XP is awarded without dramatically altering in game behavior. Some people say this will focus people on more team play. I find that unlikely. Gaming of the XP system will certainly occur. This is why WG keeps the system so opaque. 

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