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Yasha

German 19-points Battleship Captain Skills?

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I am leveling-up my first Battleship line, which is German, and am trying to map out the upgrade path. I've had a very successful run with the Gneisenau, and am just starting with the Bismarck.

The first ten points was straight-forward

Preventative Maintenance (1) - too many important things incapacitated otherwise

Expert Marksman (2) - because every speed increase for main battery turrets is critical

Superintendent (3) - because a BB captain tanks, and you need all the repairs you can get

Advanced Firing Training (4) - because these are German BBs, with awesome secondaries

The remaining nine points, which happen very slowly, are much more difficult. Two of them are probably from this four: (a) Basic Firing Training (3) - so those secondaries and AA weapons put out more firepower, (b) Concealment Expert (4) - so I don't attract so many long-range attackers, since long range gun duels rare end well, (c) Fire Prevention (4) - to reduces the number of fires starting, and (d) Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament (4) - to make those awesome secondaries even more awesome.

Personally, I'm inclined toward Fire Prevention and Basic Firing Training, in that order, because in every battle I'm tanking and either leading or joining the push. That means concealment rarely gives more than a momentary advantage. Furthermore, I'm trying hard to make each main-gun shot count, which means I'm going to be not be "right on top of" designating a new secondary target when the old one disappears. Even if automatic secondaries don't hit as hard, I'm prefer to insure my primaries ARE hitting hard as often as possible.

If I make those choices, I have a final 2 points to spend, probably on Adrenaline Rush (2) - so that as my damage increases, I can hit back faster. However, people have also made a good case for High Alert (2) - so that my damage control comes back 10% faster, or Jack of all Trades (2) - so any consumable comes back 5% faster.

On the other hand, if I have only one (1) final point to spend, it will go to Priority Target (1) - as a reminder of how much trouble I'm in, and whether I should turn on hydro to find a nearby destroyer in smoke, or torpedoes approaching.

 

Opinions and Suggestions, please?

 

 

 

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Manual secondaries may not be needed.

I like to have them go off to announce a spotted destroyer, or to shoot off both sides.

Otherwise you are correct.

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According to the post by TheDreadnought, my understanding is that the Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament (MFCSA) gives you ~100% to ~200% increase in secondary DPS, while the IFHE gives you ~30% increase in that. These need to be prioritized, as we discuss German battleships.

Basic Firing Training (BFT) only adds 10% in secondary DPS which is too little.

I find Concealment Expert (CE) not useful after reviewing a number of replays. Correctly positioning your ship and pushing with teammates appear to be 10x more effective in mitigating damage than the CE skill ever can. After all, all the CE really does is directing the enemies to fire at your teammates.

Fire Prevention (FP) seems useful but not as much as the secondary skills like MFCSA and IFHE. Fire damage is 100% repairable, and most of the damage taken mitigated by this skill ends up being repaired anyway.

My build therefore (except Scharnhorst which IFHE seems ineffective, thus FP or CE instead):

1.thumb.png.68f4fce68c1b828bc576ec637c006e4e.png

Edited by _Marines

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My current build is a survival hybrid.

PT, AR, SI, BOS, FP, AFT, & eventually EM or JOAT.

This maximizes firepower while still retaining decent survivability, in fact it's basically a full survival build minus a few small skills. The rest of the skills are for offensive purposes. Notice that it's not full secondary spec however, just enough range to pepper ships.

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I personally use Priority Target (very useful for helping me identify who is shooting at me and whether it is worth it or not to go broadside and get more guns on target), Adrenaline Rush (decreases the reload speed of my main battery and has been very useful at allowing me to get off a multi-citadel volley that kills the enemy before they can finish me off), Demolition Expert (increases the fire chance of the relatively poor quality German HE by a good margin), Manual Fire Control for Secondaries, Advanced Firing Training, and IFHE (all tier four skills are aimed at maximizing the strength of my ship's secondaries, the last one is particularly useful, allowing my 128mm guns to pen the armor plating of many BBs).

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I can't understand why people use IFHE with a GERMAN battleship. The damage power of German HE is definitely sub-par. Increasing the 380mm's penetration from 63mm to 95mm doesn't seem that useful.

I am not a good enough player to use manual secondaries just yet - as I mentioned in my original post, I prefer to concentrate on making my  primaries accurate and effective.

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2 hours ago, Yasha said:

I can't understand why people use IFHE with a GERMAN battleship. The damage power of German HE is definitely sub-par. Increasing the 380mm's penetration from 63mm to 95mm doesn't seem that useful.

I am not a good enough player to use manual secondaries just yet - as I mentioned in my original post, I prefer to concentrate on making my  primaries accurate and effective.

Ah, but it's not for the main guns. Remember that IFHE effects all guns on the ship, secondaries included. So all of a sudden your 5 and 6 inch guns go from being a fire-starting nuisance to dealing consistent damage at a high rate against the cruisers and destroyers that they're most useful at fending off.

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3 hours ago, Yasha said:

I can't understand why people use IFHE with a GERMAN battleship. The damage power of German HE is definitely sub-par. Increasing the 380mm's penetration from 63mm to 95mm doesn't seem that useful.

I am not a good enough player to use manual secondaries just yet - as I mentioned in my original post, I prefer to concentrate on making my  primaries accurate and effective.

IFHE lets the GK's secondaries pen EVERYTHING, CAs, BBs, a particular DD ect. It makes your secondaries actually hurt against targets that are usually only worried about the fire damage. It also shortens your engagements because you kill everything faster. Since what you're worried about, fire is RNG based the less shots they take at you the less likely you are to get lit on fire.

My build on my GK is this:

Priority target, lets me know when i'm getting focused and when to expect torps if my hydro is down. also lets me know before I push how many ships are expecting me.
Adrenaline rush, not expert marksman you should be somewhat aware of where your guns should be pointed beforehand. Plus more dakka dakka shoosting.
Superintendent, same reasons you gave, more hydro, more health.
Manual secondaries, because that's the point of German bbs.
AFT for the secondaries because that's the point of German bbs.
IFHE, because the secondaries on the GK benefit from this and again make them pen everything so you do more raw damage and still have plenty of fires.
Preventative maintenance so I don't lose my guns when i'm brawling 3 BBs.

I run secondary mod 1 and 2 because I have preventative maintenance to make up for the loss of main armament mod 1.

If you want a tanky, stealthy, fire retardant ship get a Yamato or Montana (they are far better suited for the role), otherwise use islands to conceal your advance and just kill whatever is shooting you. The German BBs are aggressive in nature don't neuter them and turn them into something they aren't. That ship is too much fun to min/max into a worse version of the Montana/Yamato.

 

Also turn on your secondary range display on the minimap and control click everything that gets in that circle. Even if you don't have manual secondaries you should be doing this anyway for planes or ships, it becomes second nature with practice.

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6 hours ago, Yasha said:

I am leveling-up my first Battleship line, which is German, and am trying to map out the upgrade path. I've had a very successful run with the Gneisenau, and am just starting with the Bismarck.

The first ten points was straight-forward

Preventative Maintenance (1) - too many important things incapacitated otherwise

Expert Marksman (2) - because every speed increase for main battery turrets is critical

Superintendent (3) - because a BB captain tanks, and you need all the repairs you can get

Advanced Firing Training (4) - because these are German BBs, with awesome secondaries

The remaining nine points, which happen very slowly, are much more difficult. Two of them are probably from this four: (a) Basic Firing Training (3) - so those secondaries and AA weapons put out more firepower, (b) Concealment Expert (4) - so I don't attract so many long-range attackers, since long range gun duels rare end well, (c) Fire Prevention (4) - to reduces the number of fires starting, and (d) Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament (4) - to make those awesome secondaries even more awesome.

Personally, I'm inclined toward Fire Prevention and Basic Firing Training, in that order, because in every battle I'm tanking and either leading or joining the push. That means concealment rarely gives more than a momentary advantage. Furthermore, I'm trying hard to make each main-gun shot count, which means I'm going to be not be "right on top of" designating a new secondary target when the old one disappears. Even if automatic secondaries don't hit as hard, I'm prefer to insure my primaries ARE hitting hard as often as possible.

If I make those choices, I have a final 2 points to spend, probably on Adrenaline Rush (2) - so that as my damage increases, I can hit back faster. However, people have also made a good case for High Alert (2) - so that my damage control comes back 10% faster, or Jack of all Trades (2) - so any consumable comes back 5% faster.

On the other hand, if I have only one (1) final point to spend, it will go to Priority Target (1) - as a reminder of how much trouble I'm in, and whether I should turn on hydro to find a nearby destroyer in smoke, or torpedoes approaching.

 

Opinions and Suggestions, please?

 

 

 

like you i used to always run pm and never pt, i tried, now i'm respeccing everything i got, even dds. you just need to know how many ninjas are aiming at you. it will change your life.

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10 hours ago, Landsraad said:

Ah, but it's not for the main guns. Remember that IFHE effects all guns on the ship, secondaries included. So all of a sudden your 5 and 6 inch guns go from being a fire-starting nuisance to dealing consistent damage at a high rate against the cruisers and destroyers that they're most useful at fending off.

9 hours ago, Troa_Barton said:

IFHE lets the GK's secondaries pen EVERYTHING, CAs, BBs, a particular DD ect. It makes your secondaries actually hurt against targets that are usually only worried about the fire damage. It also shortens your engagements because you kill everything faster. Since what you're worried about, fire is RNG based the less shots they take at you the less likely you are to get lit on fire.

I have always wondered about this. IFHE seems to have significant effect on the secondary guns of Bismarck, Friedrich, and Kurfurst, but many people on the forums seem unconvinced at the IFHE's effect on Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Why?? Is it really worth it to select IFHE for a (secondary build) Scharnhorst captain?

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Does Scharn still have unnerfed fire chance on its secondary HE? 

 

Also, really does secondary GK really work? I'm on fire so often....

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4 hours ago, _Marines said:

I have always wondered about this. IFHE seems to have significant effect on the secondary guns of Bismarck, Friedrich, and Kurfurst, but many people on the forums seem unconvinced at the IFHE's effect on Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Why?? Is it really worth it to select IFHE for a (secondary build) Scharnhorst captain?

IFHE is really only good for the 128's
the 105mm secondary guns on the scharn benefit only a little bringing the pen from 17 to 22 so it has limited use at that tier because it doesn't get you over BB armor values. Its better to keep the higher fire chance instead of the extra pen.
128s on the other hand will get you over that 32mm armor threshold, pen has to exceed the armor to penetrate not match it. 128's have 32mm pen without IFHE and go up to 41.6 with it letting you pen anything below 41mm of armor.
150's don't benefit either as they can already pen up to 32mm but IFHE doesn't get them over the 50mm threshhold with IFHE the pen is at 48mm.


The scharn, Bismark, FDG dont have 128's so IFHE isn't worth it on those ships. The Gneisenau when upgraded has 22 128mm secondaries which is why that ship has such bad gun characteristics it's balanced with that in mind.
The GK has 20 128mm secondaries so it will also benefit, especially at tier 10.

4 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

Does Scharn still have unnerfed fire chance on its secondary HE? 

 

Also, really does secondary GK really work? I'm on fire so often....

5% on the 105mm, 8% on the 150mm secondaries.

Oh yes it really works, you have to be more careful with your positioning to limit DOT stacking. You want them to push into an area they can't easily run from. You find a place where they will push that has terrain where you can disengage or push into a place where they cant run from you. If you play it like a normal BB in open water at range you're going to have a bad time, use objectives to lure them to you, drive the HE spammers to cover before you advance. Do not push into a crossfire, do not push into a firing line of HE spammers, you want them out of position not you and you need to be close enough to catch them.

You punish people that over extend and smaller pockets of resistance that are trapped using cover to section off their reinforcements.

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18 hours ago, Yasha said:

I can't understand why people use IFHE with a GERMAN battleship. The damage power of German HE is definitely sub-par. Increasing the 380mm's penetration from 63mm to 95mm doesn't seem that useful.

I am not a good enough player to use manual secondaries just yet - as I mentioned in my original post, I prefer to concentrate on making my  primaries accurate and effective.

Some take IFHE for the secondaries, the 105mm are HE shooters, and it makes a difference. Gneisenau uses 128mm, extra IFHE pen doesn't really do anything special.

If you want to concentrate on making primaries accurate and effective, TBH, play another line.

As far as using manual secondaries, practice the usage with ALL your ships. Selecting a target for secondaries and AA helps provides a bonus even without specific skills. It's a good habit to get into.

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IMO, if you're serious at all on implementing a Secondaries Build on a BB, Manual Secondaries is very important for more hits in a shorter amount of time.  Massachusetts has a lot of built in accuracy in her Secondaries and I have not tried her yet without Manual Secondaries.  But German BBs?  Got Secondary Builds all over the place with them.

 

Here is my Tirpitz with BFT, AFT traits, no Manual Secondaries trait.  SBM2 upgrade is installed.

2fk1d4B.jpg

Look at that terrible scatter.

 

Here is the same Tirpitz build, but this time with my GK captain who has a Manual Secondaries trait.

kgQbY12.jpg

That's what I want to see.  Tighter scatter, more hits.

 

And that's against a BB sized target.  With Manual Secondaries you get more hits even further out.  The only time not having Manual Secondaries becomes irrelevant is when the threat is in super close ranges.  Like, "That Destroyer is so close that the captain could jump from his rails and climb aboard my ship" kind of close.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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4 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Like, "That Destroyer is so close that the captain could jump from his rails and climb aboard my ship" kind of close.

and club you with a potato  =D

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I changed my full secondary built to a hybrid secondary/tank built as the meta got more campy and HE spammy.

1. PM or PT (so you get prewarning against DDs)

2. adrenaline rush first 

3. Basics of survivability 

4. Manual Secondaries (10pts)

Afterwards:

5. Fire prevention (14 Pts)

6. AFT (18 pts)

7. PM or PT whatever you didn’t pick before

 

I know that some ppl love their IFHE on a secondary built but Secondaries are what the name says and rarely decisive. I still like them for the fun of it but they are not really the most efficient built. 

I am liking the hybrid built - partially because I dislike stealth builts on BBs.

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On 8/26/2018 at 12:55 AM, _Marines said:

I find Concealment Expert (CE) not useful after reviewing a number of replays. Correctly positioning your ship and pushing with teammates appear to be 10x more effective in mitigating damage than the CE skill ever can. After all, all the CE really does is directing the enemies to fire at your teammates.

 

CE is actually pretty crucial because you will be HE spammed from long distance cruisers and will need to drop to not be burned down. No amount of correct position will prevent it.

Edited by pinkship9001
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13 hours ago, Troa_Barton said:

IFHE is really only good for the 128's
the 105mm secondary guns on the scharn benefit only a little bringing the pen from 17 to 22 so it has limited use at that tier because it doesn't get you over BB armor values. Its better to keep the higher fire chance instead of the extra pen.

Scharn, yep.  Bismark and Freddy.  Well unless you enjoy not being able to pen 19 mm of armor with the 105s then yeah skip it.

19 mm is a crucial threshold to break at T8+.  All DDs T8+ have 19 mm of armor as well as all T8+ BB superstructure, which is where a lot of 105 shots will land at range.

I have tried Bis with and without IFHE, with makes a massive difference in direct secondary damage.  Damage > RNG fire chance.

Stockpiling coin to finally buy Freddy, but will be going in with a max secondary setup.

PT, AR, BFT, AFT, MFCS, IFHE.  Working on the 19th pt for PM.

Even going to use the secondary reload mod for -25% reload.

Effective or not, we'll see, but high tier secondary builds are like AA builds, gotta go big or go home.  Half measures don't yield great results.

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So to visualize the discussion above, Scharnhorst will skip IFHE for FP because IFHE does little to increase her secondary damage:

18 hours ago, Troa_Barton said:

IFHE is really only good for the 128's
the 105mm secondary guns on the scharn benefit only a little bringing the pen from 17 to 22 so it has limited use at that tier because it doesn't get you over BB armor values. Its better to keep the higher fire chance instead of the extra pen.

scharn1.png.1291237e3b1da4b51a86c55880db9030.png

Or alternatively we can select CE over FP to disappear from camping HE-spammers:

10 hours ago, pinkship9001 said:

CE is actually pretty crucial because you will be HE spammed from long distance cruisers and will need to drop to not be burned down. No amount of correct position will prevent it.

scharn2.png.34d09b24abd567be0222722d027458f6.png

For Bismarck, Friedrich, and Kurfurst I will go with IFHE. Regarding the trade-offs among BFT (+10% 2ndary damage), AFT (+20% 2ndary range), IFHE (approx +30% 2ndary damage), and MFCSA (-60% 2ndary dispersion ≈ approx +100% 2ndary damage), where we can choose 3 of the 4, I will skip BFT which is the least effective and take the rest 3.

Speaking of AFT, cruisers and DDs like to keep a ~10 km range from an enemy battleship most of the time, so the 20% range is decisive on whether your secondaries get to fire or not.

After AFT, IFHE, and MFCSA are taken, I consider the trade-offs between 3-point skills BFT and SI, as well as 2-point skills EM and AR as personal preference:

5b84480b820c8_germansecondarybuild.png.b0f3c48e15767ee0f906cced35f1499f.png

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I just bit the bullet and put FDG in port.  Gonna respect a Captain, yet again...then grind out the retraining on Tirpitz.  What do you all recommend for modules/upgrades?

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21 hours ago, Aeries1 said:

Scharn, yep.  Bismark and Freddy.  Well unless you enjoy not being able to pen 19 mm of armor with the 105s then yeah skip it.

19 mm is a crucial threshold to break at T8+.  All DDs T8+ have 19 mm of armor as well as all T8+ BB superstructure, which is where a lot of 105 shots will land at range.

I have tried Bis with and without IFHE, with makes a massive difference in direct secondary damage.  Damage > RNG fire chance.

Stockpiling coin to finally buy Freddy, but will be going in with a max secondary setup.

PT, AR, BFT, AFT, MFCS, IFHE.  Working on the 19th pt for PM.

Even going to use the secondary reload mod for -25% reload.

Effective or not, we'll see, but high tier secondary builds are like AA builds, gotta go big or go home.  Half measures don't yield great results.

Its really just a trade off more damage vs dds (which shouldn't be what you're hunting but I can't blame you) or more damage vs bbs with fire. On the freddy build i would go superintendent over BFT just because that hydro and heal can mean the difference between you winning a match or not. Secondary mod 3 is ok on the freddy since its guns are so awful, the Kurfurst on the other hand has fantastic guns so I wouldn't recommend it there.

15 hours ago, _Marines said:

So to visualize the discussion above, Scharnhorst will skip IFHE for FP because IFHE does little to increase her secondary damage:

scharn1.png.1291237e3b1da4b51a86c55880db9030.png

Or alternatively we can select CE over FP to disappear from camping HE-spammers:

scharn2.png.34d09b24abd567be0222722d027458f6.png

For Bismarck, Friedrich, and Kurfurst I will go with IFHE. Regarding the trade-offs among BFT (+10% 2ndary damage), AFT (+20% 2ndary range), IFHE (approx +30% 2ndary damage), and MFCSA (-60% 2ndary dispersion ≈ approx +100% 2ndary damage), where we can choose 3 of the 4, I will skip BFT which is the least effective and take the rest 3.

Speaking of AFT, cruisers and DDs like to keep a ~10 km range from an enemy battleship most of the time, so the 20% range is decisive on whether your secondaries get to fire or not.

After AFT, IFHE, and MFCSA are taken, I consider the trade-offs between 3-point skills BFT and SI, as well as 2-point skills EM and AR as personal preference:

5b84480b820c8_germansecondarybuild.png.b0f3c48e15767ee0f906cced35f1499f.png

There's nothing wrong with going hybrid with that third class 4 captain skill going to either FP or CE It's just not as fun and you give up a lot of damage. If you're good with positioning FP if not CE and if you're brazen enough to take this into ranked... A. Good luck to you. B. Min max it FP and CE. This just isn't a top shelf pick for ranked with all the cruiser spam and no amount of paint is going to cover that booty. There are far better alternatives for ranked when it comes to bbs and even min maxed this thing will pale next to those other choices. But if that's all you got you gotta do what you gotta do.

I would recommend Adrenaline Rush over expert marksman though, AR on KM ships benefits both their secondaries and main battery and both are amazing on the GK.

Edited by Troa_Barton

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2 hours ago, Troa_Barton said:

Its really just a trade off more damage vs dds (which shouldn't be what you're hunting but I can't blame you) or more damage vs bbs with fire. On the freddy build i would go superintendent over BFT just because that hydro and heal can mean the difference between you winning a match or not. Secondary mod 3 is ok on the freddy since its guns are so awful, the Kurfurst on the other hand has fantastic guns so I wouldn't recommend it there.

The 1% loss of fires can be got back with both fire flags so not much of a big deal imo.

That being said after conversing in this thread yesterday I said screw it, haven't played KM BBs in forever, restarted the grind and got Freddy.

Holy lord you aren't kidding about the guns.  They are horrific, even tried MBM2 taking the SBM2 off and dispersion and sigma is still atrocious.  And those 105s in T9+, even with IFHE, are laughably bad.  I had 1 game with over 200 hits for a whopping 6k damage and 1 2k damage fire.  Whoopty doo.  I play 5 games in her and just went ahead to GK using my free XP.  I could tell how that grind was gonna be.

Now.  Kurrywurst is an extremely fun boat.  Guns, while the same, are much better now that there are 12 of them.  I went ahead with the build I planned on going whole hog full secondary.  It is comical with the SBM3.  128s popping off every 2.8 seconds full health.  With AR kicking in @25% health they are down to 2.4 seconds, even the 150s are down around the 4 second mark.  Much fun driving a push.

Now I think I will try MBM3 instead of the -20% reload on SBM3 to see how I will like it instead.  That may be the best tradeoff.  That is until a long long time from now get the unique upgrade.

For what GK is meant for it is a straight up buff.  Fun boat, so far like her better than my Yammy or Monty, suits my BB playstyle better.

Icon_modernization_PCM045_Special_Mod_I_GKurfurst.png

Enhanced Main Armaments

2,500,000Credits
  • –15% to main battery loading time.
  • –15% to secondary battery loading time.
  • –7% to main turrets traverse speed.
  • –8% to main battery maximum firing range.
Available only via in-game missions. Großer Kurfürst only.

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