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Mahrs

Today's Surprise: Baltimore >> Roma

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We started bow to bow at about 13 km.  For the vast majority of the engagement he did me the courtesy of only shooting AP.  Sort of a fair comparison that way.  He managed his angle effectively and just closed the distance...it was like watching a horror movie where the killer only ever walks.  There was nothing I could do to damage him...I tried aiming for guns, superstructure, the side of his ship...but, alas, RNG and the game mechanics decreed that it was not to be.  

Easily one of the most frustrating experiences I've had, being so totally out played...I just didn't know I couldn't damage him (let alone sink him) and missed the chance to turn out and run at a range where it was feasible.  That as the shock to me...that I need to run.  What I thought was an easy kill cost me my ship.  I'm not even sure what lesson I'm supposed to take away from that, honestly.

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You didn't try pre-aiming your guns to the side and speeding up to drive-by him?

While hardly ideal switching to HE would've allowed damage (depending on his HP even a kill or forcing him to break off).

You mentioned aiming for his guns, you should be able to knock them out if you can hit them, so that is still an option.

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1 hour ago, Mahrs said:

  I'm not even sure what lesson I'm supposed to take away from that, honestly.

Sometimes the other guy does something right.

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so who was the baltimore and who was the roma?

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1 hour ago, Mahrs said:

We started bow to bow at about 13 km.  For the vast majority of the engagement he did me the courtesy of only shooting AP.  Sort of a fair comparison that way.  He managed his angle effectively and just closed the distance...it was like watching a horror movie where the killer only ever walks.  There was nothing I could do to damage him...I tried aiming for guns, superstructure, the side of his ship...but, alas, RNG and the game mechanics decreed that it was not to be.  

Easily one of the most frustrating experiences I've had, being so totally out played...I just didn't know I couldn't damage him (let alone sink him) and missed the chance to turn out and run at a range where it was feasible.  That as the shock to me...that I need to run.  What I thought was an easy kill cost me my ship.  I'm not even sure what lesson I'm supposed to take away from that, honestly.

Who what when where why

missing who and what.

Aside from that the Roma has wonky armor and guns. Just spitballing here. I’m not familiar with Roma caliber but may have been an overmatched issue on Baltimore bow. I know the Baltimore very well and can say for sure that it shouldn’t be underestimated when played to its strengths. It pretty solid bow on or slightly angled and it’s gunnery is fantastic. If the Baltimore can knock out turrets and nail superstructure with AP while also setting world on fire.... yeah bad day for Roma.

either way sounds like a fun engagement and nice break form the peak a boo sniping that usual occurs.

Edited by thebigblue

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1 hour ago, Mahrs said:

I'm not even sure what lesson I'm supposed to take away from that, honestly.

Just so I am understanding things correctly, you were in the Roma, and you were fighting a bow on Baltimore, correct?

The lesson here is that the Baltimore has a 27mm bow, and the Roma only has 380mm guns.  380mm guns are only capable of overmatching 26mm of armor, meaning the Baltimore can effectively bow tank you, and you would have needed to switch to HE in order to kill him in a timely manner.

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Baltimore has 27mm bow.  USN & German Tier VIII-X HEAVY CRUISERS have 27mm bows.  They can bounce 380mm AP and only 406mm+ AP can Overmatch their bow.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_thresholds

 

I've taken Des Moines into island infested caps and have had 2 Bismarcks come into my den thinking 2 BBs vs 1 CA would be an easy job for them.  However, I had islands protecting my sides, I was bow on, and I was ripping the 2 Bismarcks apart with DM's front 203mm x6 guns, spamming HE and then AP.  The 2 Bismarcks were firing at me trying to citadel me but their shells were bouncing off my bow.  The Bismarcks, surprised that several salvos from both of their BBs were doing nothing, start panicking.  1 starts to flee, the other beaches himself.  I then surge out and speed around to nail 1 Bismarck's sides with point blank DM SHS AP salvos with non-stop chains of massive AP penetrations, sinking it.  The 2nd one that was trying to flee ends up getting burned down by DM's HE.

 

They didn't know why their AP failed against DM.

They didn't know that at that range, they were better off aiming for the turrets with their AP.  Cruiser turrets are nowhere near as sturdy as Battleship turrets.  If you are close enough to make called shots, your BB guns not able to pen the bow of that Cruiser, crush the turrets instead.  It won't take much, far easier than trying to KO a BB turret.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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6 hours ago, Meatshield_No13 said:

You didn't try pre-aiming your guns to the side and speeding up to drive-by him?

While hardly ideal switching to HE would've allowed damage (depending on his HP even a kill or forcing him to break off).

You mentioned aiming for his guns, you should be able to knock them out if you can hit them, so that is still an option.

I suppose I can set the scene.  It was a ranked match and I floating center, trying to do some map control, covering the A/B cap.  Most of both teams weighted C.  When I saw a lone cruiser in A/B, I was licking my chops...no one else had a shot on me, figure I'd mop this dude up and carry a win for my team by flanking.  Hohoho... The terrain meant he had nowhere to go, really, but in or broadside.  As he closed the range, I got on the gas hoping to gain his side.  I got side, but not enough to actually do any damage...and, of course, Roma doesn't tend to excel in close ranges anyway.  If I got any hits at all, they were either bounces or over pens.  Dispersion trolled me somewhat...giving up a lot of potential damage without actually making his armor do any work.  The hilarity of it all is that as soon as it came to knife fighting range, he started stacking tons of damage and I did...nothing...or nearly nothing.  Keeping the guns on target isn't hard in Roma...seems like her traverse is good.  However, it has the first time I was truly disappointed with their ability to actually do damage.  I was too incredulous to even be mad.  

Icing on the cake?  About 30 seconds later, our Atago 2 shots his broadside with AP.  He was camping NW doing...things...important things.  

ETA: I picked up Roma this weekend because the ship is GORGEOUS and I've wanted it for a while, but hand't been playing.

ETA2: Also, the ship's horn is KM levels of manly.

Edited by Mahrs

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8 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Baltimore has 27mm bow.  USN & German HEAVY CRUISERS have 27mm bows.  They can bounce 380mm AP and only 406mm+ AP can Overmatch their bow.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_thresholds

 

I've taken Des Moines into island infested caps and have had 2 Bismarcks come into my den thinking 2 BBs vs 1 CA would be an easy job for them.  However, I had islands protecting my sides, I was bow on, and I was ripping the 2 Bismarcks apart with DM's front 203mm x6 guns, spamming HE and then AP.  The 2 Bismarcks were firing at me trying to citadel me but their shells were bouncing off my bow.  The Bismarcks, surprised that several salvos from both of their BBs were doing nothing, start panicking.  1 starts to flee, the other beaches himself.  I then surge out and speed around to nail 1 Bismarck's sides with point blank DM SHS AP salvos with non-stop chains of massive AP penetrations, sinking it.  The 2nd one that was trying to flee ends up getting burned down by DM's HE.

 

They didn't know why their AP failed against DM.

They didn't know that at that range, they were better off aiming for the turrets with their AP.  Cruiser turrets are nowhere near as sturdy as Battleship turrets.  If you are close enough to make called shots, your BB guns not able to pen the bow of that Cruiser, crush the turrets instead.  It won't take much, far easier than trying to KO a BB turret.

Even aiming at the turrets is a losing proposition for BBs in that position. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try, but they are small targets and BB accuracy will have them miss more than not. I've rarely lost a turret (as a cruiser) that way and I've only once ever lost one permanently. The OP should have  accelerated, taken the damage and pushed past the Baltimore as fast as he could. Once he passes him the Baltimore has to turn (to follow or away) and expose a side or pull straight away. (The other alternative is the cruiser may ram.) Either way works for the BB and ends the bow-on impasse that stops him from doing damage. The worst thing to do is sit there bow on or move slowly. That hands a big advantage to the cruiser. The cruiser fires faster, the BB is easier to hit, will burn much longer from a fire, and has worse accuracy, and the cruiser usually won't miss in return. I say that as the person who is usually playing the cruiser and doing this. 

I also love doing this against 15" BBs in DM and Baltimore. I tanked a Tirpitz and a KGV this way for 3 minutes in Baltimore the other day. I had to suicide in against them to retake our base and they just sat there, huddled together, flinging AP at my bow and wondering why I was doing no damage. I only went down when an Edinburgh and a DD joined in and started hitting me on the sides. The Edinburgh actually did more damage to me than either BB did. 

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57 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Even aiming at the turrets is a losing proposition for BBs in that position. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try, but they are small targets and BB accuracy will have them miss more than not. I've rarely lost a turret (as a cruiser) that way and I've only once ever lost one permanently. The OP should have  accelerated, taken the damage and pushed past the Baltimore as fast as he could. Once he passes him the Baltimore has to turn (to follow or away) and expose a side or pull straight away. (The other alternative is the cruiser may ram.) Either way works for the BB and ends the bow-on impasse that stops him from doing damage. The worst thing to do is sit there bow on or move slowly. That hands a big advantage to the cruiser. The cruiser fires faster, the BB is easier to hit, will burn much longer from a fire, and has worse accuracy, and the cruiser usually won't miss in return. I say that as the person who is usually playing the cruiser and doing this. 

I also love doing this against 15" BBs in DM and Baltimore. I tanked a Tirpitz and a KGV this way for 3 minutes in Baltimore the other day. I had to suicide in against them to retake our base and they just sat there, huddled together, flinging AP at my bow and wondering why I was doing no damage. I only went down when an Edinburgh and a DD joined in and started hitting me on the sides. The Edinburgh actually did more damage to me than either BB did. 

The turrets are smaller compared to a BB turret, but all you need is 1-2 landing on a turret and it's turret wrecking time.

I've learned to be going after turrets as a BB when people are adopting these angled / bow on profiles, BB or Cruiser targets.

This is especially easy if the BB you're using actually has some measure of accuracy (USN, IJN).  Even in tanking with Moskva against BBs, there's the guys that give up trying to nail her from the front, and then there's the guys who keep taking out the turrets.

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29 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The turrets are smaller compared to a BB turret, but all you need is 1-2 landing on a turret and it's turret wrecking time.

I've learned to be going after turrets as a BB when people are adopting these angled / bow on profiles, BB or Cruiser targets.

This is especially easy if the BB you're using actually has some measure of accuracy (USN, IJN).  Even in tanking with Moskva against BBs, there's the guys that give up trying to nail her from the front, and then there's the guys who keep taking out the turrets.

Mhm, not to mention that if you're aiming for the turrets and miss you're still very likely to hit the superstructure for at the very least an overpen for some good damage. But yeah, if you see a CA bow-tanking your shots just load HE and aim over the deck, that'll make them rethink their life choices REAL quick.

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I watched a Roma replay last night after I was done playing.  I didn't really appreciate how hard the guns troll you.  Same map, last match in ranked at Tier VIII, I spawned south.  I float close enough to reliably wreck DD (and do, yea for my team) and then I spot THE priority target: their Cleveland.  Watching the replay, I started counting hits.  Front guns - 5 of 6, all over pens.  Roma continued to produce hits and some regular pens...but, it was harder than I thought to get damage even with hits.  Over penning a Kii, also funny.  I wonder if a shorter fuse would break her...

Replay attached for the bored/curious.  Beware a tiny bit salt directed towards said Cleveland near the end. ;-)

20180825_173517_PISB508-Roma_25_sea_hope.wowsreplay

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