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_Marines

Poll: Which Tier 10 battleship is the strongest for a secondary build?

Which Tier 10 battleship(s) is the strongest for a secondary build?   

66 members have voted

  1. 1. Which T10 BB is the strongest for a secondary build?

    • MN - "République"
    • KM - Großer Kurfürst (H41)
    • USN - Montana
      0
    • RN - "Conqueror"
      0
    • IJN - Yamato
    • I haven't played battleships with a secondary build

26 comments in this topic

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Attached below are some highly rated comments in an old Reddit thread. Generally speaking, T10 matches are done with BB players staying behind and sniping. However, I find this to be a losing strategy. Taking my own stats for instance:

3.thumb.png.0aa940cbdb9b517850efb780af88d506.png

By sniping behind, the Yamato, while netting a 2.5 kill/death ratio, has a win rate at an abysmal 39%. Certainly queuing most of these matches individually (as opposed to in a division) has a significant influence, but 39% win is still abysmal.:Smile_hiding: 

Meanwhile, the battleships that I played by pushing aggressively with the team win more. Since the popular T10 ranked battles are ongoing now (I know, I should complain to WG too.. any tier is better than T10 for ranked), an aggressive battleship pushing with the team can use some secondaries, I suppose?:Smile_teethhappy: Vote, discuss, and let us know which is the strongest in your opinion and why!!! 

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I have been searching for some tests and data. Maybe someone has tested the secondaries of some Tier 10 battleships in a training room or so. Anyone has such info to share?

That said, Kurfurst is an adorable ship.

 

Untitled.png

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Personally, I'd put GK first; it has the best combination to make it work.

Runner up would be Republique, though she's best using a secondary build while supporting an advance, using her longer secondary range to cover allies ahead of her and then delivering hard punches with her mains.

Yamato could have easily been up there, had she been given long-range secondaries, as a pushing Yamato with secondaries going full tilt is pretty brutal.

Edited by YamatoA150

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13 minutes ago, YamatoA150 said:

Personally, I'd put GK first; it has the best combination to make it work.

Runner up would be Republique, though she's best using a secondary build while supporting an advance, using her longer secondary range to cover allies ahead of her and then delivering hard punches with her mains.

Yamato could have easily been up there, had she been given long-range secondaries, as a pushing Yamato with secondaries going full tilt is pretty brutal.

Is Montana no go for a secondary build? :fish_happy: ... base range of Montana's secondaries is only 6km, almost Tier 5 level.

Edited by _Marines

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39 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

GK no contest for sure.

^^^ yep righteous!! 

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2 minutes ago, _Marines said:

Is Montana no go for a secondary build?:fish_happy:

Not when compared to GK and Repub

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GK is still the Queen of Brawling BBs of Tier X.  Republique is pretty dang close but GK's protection scheme is purpose built for such fighting.  Both secondary batteries are top notch though.  With the other BBs you got to worry about citadel protection.  With GK, you don't mind a couple nasty hits.

57 minutes ago, _Marines said:

I have been searching for some tests and data. Maybe someone has tested the secondaries of some Tier 10 battleships in a training room or so. Anyone has such info to share?

That said, Kurfurst is an adorable ship.

 

Untitled.png


It's only a contest between GK & Republique in a purely Secondaries Battery perspective.

 

Yamato has pretty decent Secondaries for Tier X.  When it was just her and Montana at Tier X BBs long, LONG ago, Secondary Spec Yammies were very common.  The only reason Sec.Spec Yammies ceased to exist on a widespread basis is due to the arrival of one thing... German Battleships, GK in Tier X.  Knowing Yamato's special citadel spot, ponderously slow turret traverse, etc, a Sec.Spec Yamato became a lot less attractive.  But long ago, Sec.Spec Yamato was a thing and people went without ASM1 on her because they felt her gun accuracy was already great and didn't need the help of ASM1.

 

Montana's secondaries have the volume, rate of fire, proper sized guns (127mm).  The problem is range.  IIRC, a Sec.Spec Montana only goes to around 9.1km, which is pathetic compared to every other Tier X BB.  All prior tiers of USN BBs, except for new Massachusetts, excluding range issues, suffer from very slow firing Secondaries.  BFT, SBM3, etc. don't help much and they still fire slow.  Montana **finally** has fast firing secondaries and lots of guns, but the range is horrible.

 

Conqueror's Secondaries are just as mediocre as Montana.  But to make it worse for Conqueror in a Secondaries / Brawl setting, she is coated in 32mm armor meant to eat lots of penetrations.  She also has the lowest HP pool of all Tier X BBs which makes her very susceptible to alpha strikes, which can happen with regularity in such fighting.  Not to mention her 419mm turrets are super squishy.

 

GK & Republique secondaries are just too dang good.  Sec.Spec Republique or GK is a very valid route for both ships.

GK also has the benefit that both her 128mm and 150mm secondary gun sets get the extra German HE pen.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

If you like IFHE Secondary Builds, GK is one of the best candidates for such a thing.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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German BB's are the defacto secondary build ships seconded only by the French. German BB's are in fact specifically tailored to be close-combat ships in the game; both due to gun accuracy and armor layout.

The French BB's have better range and (from what it feels like) their secondary's hit harder; but their armor isn't as specified for close combat as the Germans. That being, German BB's have weak deck armor making long-range combat dangerous. The closer a German BB gets, the more dangerous it becomes.

Another (3rd and last) alternative is the Yamato. Good secondary range and powerful secondary guns, the only reason why it would be last is because it really is better off as a stand-off ship. There really shouldn't be any time that your secondary's are going off, but if they do get the chance, they can deal all kinds of damage.

Edited by Levits

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GK

 

Kursfust has really good armor which make secondary build viable. Also they are pretty solid.

 

French secondaries are also pretty good but French ship don't have that great armor and they secondaries tend to melt under HE spam

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This is pretty much an open-and-shut poll, but let's dive into the reasoning here as to why the Great Elector will probably win by a landslide.

We'll start at the worst:
Montana. Your secondaries are fragile, have short range, and are slow loading. Your armor scheme is designed to defeat long range fire with an internal belt and non-standard citadel design. In addition, your strength is accurate hard-hitting guns that do well at range. Why are you brawling in this thing?

Conqueror: Okay, you can at least get the drop on people, but this is still a ship that's built for dropping bombs on people at long range, whether with her twelve guns or those eight massive eighteen inchers. Get too close and people start being able to get to your squishy innards with AP consistently, that's no good for a brawler.

Yamato: Okay, we're starting to get viable. Brawling is still not recommended since someone got the bright idea to make your citadel wall the main armor belt, but now we actually get some decent range on those six inchers and five inch DP guns. Not to mention the fact that Yamato is positively COVERED in smaller-caliber armaments, an AA/secondary build can catch people off guard and do quite a number on people. Also, that 460mm citadel belt may not be the best of protection, but you've got great turtleback armor and good angling can go a long way. Just hope that they don't know about the cheek.

Republique: Ah, now we have a challenger! Fast, good turtleback, nimble, and your secondaries have speed AND range on their side. Republique is the lightning bruiser of tier 10, she packs a punch but her true strength is the agility of the platform that her guns are mounted on. The only real downsides to her as a secondary brawler are those twin turrets, making it easy to take half of her main battery out of the equation; and the fact that she's not quite as resilient as some of her peers.

Grosser Kurfurst: The one true brawler. Kurfurst is the undisputed queen of brawling. Hitpoints for days, heavy armor protection, great turtleback, secondaries with reach and raw volume of fire, you've got it all here. German Hydro makes brawling more feasible by alleviating fears of sneaky DDs and their torps. German gunnery (ahistorically) makes brawling necessary by being TERRIBLE at range, though not as bad as some would say. German armor laughs in the face of incoming rounds and shrugs off all but the harshest barrages. The Great Elector rules them all, none surpass you in the brawling game in this ship.

Time will tell where the tech tree Russians and Italians fit into this dynamic, but I get the feeling that Kurfurst will still keep her crown for the foreseeable future. As a side-note: It took me OVER AN HOUR to write this because everyone and their mother decided to check in around midnight tonight, for TOG knows what reason. There were only two responses when I started.

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1 hour ago, Landsraad said:

Time will tell where the tech tree Russians and Italians fit into this dynamic, but I get the feeling that Kurfurst will still keep her crown for the foreseeable future. As a side-note: It took me OVER AN HOUR to write this because everyone and their mother decided to check in around midnight tonight, for TOG knows what reason. There were only two responses when I started.

I expect RU BBs will be extremely proficient for range.  Ranged performance is the common characteristic of all the RU ship lines.

RU DDs?  Ranged gunboats.

RU Cruisers?  Emphasis on long ranged proficiency and many have questionable protection.

Imp.Nik.I is very good at range for her tier.

Red October is average at range, her gimmick is that special DCP.

Kronshtadt, Stalingrad are proficient at range with some hard hitting guns and super fast shells.

Except for R.October, every single RU ship in this game emphasizes ranged proficiency.

 

For the Sovetsky Soyuz, which the Soviets were actually building and not a pure toilet paper design like so many other ships in this game, the guns she was supposed to have were these 406mm guns

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_16-50_m1937.php

In contrast is the USN 16"/50 for comparison.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_16-50_m1937.php

I expect Sovetsky Soyuz to be a High Tier BB, VIII or IX.  I expect her to have high velocity (for a BB) guns and proficient at range.  As for armor, I don't know anything about how that will go.  Her speed, guns look perfect for VIII-IX.

 

There's going to be some interesting paper filler going on with the RU BB Line.  You are going to have a generation gap.  The Russians last produced Battleship was Imperator Nikolai I of 1916.  Due to lots of factors, they don't get around back to Battleships again until they started building 4 Sovetsky Soyuz BBs in 1938.  WG is going to do some fantasy refits, paper mache work to fill a RU BB Line.  But Sovetsky Soyuz will at least be decently Real Deal and not some toilet paper b---crap imaginary ship.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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26 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

There's going to be some interesting paper filler going on with the RU BB Line.  You are going to have a generation gap.  The Russians last produced Battleship was Imperator Nikolai I of 1916.  Due to lots of factors, they don't get around back to Battleships again until they started building 4 Sovetsky Soyuz BBs in 1938.  WG is going to do some fantasy refits, paper mache work to fill a RU BB Line.  But Sovetsky Soyuz will at least be decently Real Deal and not some toilet paper b---crap imaginary ship.

I think it would be more appropriate to allow Russia and Italy's tech tree to end at Tier 8 or so. The French battleship line would have ended beautifully at Tier 9. The Tier 10 fabricated imagined non-exist ship destroys the historicity and seriousness of the game.

9328eea4-f529-11e5-9deb-d89d6715223c.jpg

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3 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I expect RU BBs will be extremely proficient for range.  Ranged performance is the common characteristic of all the RU ship lines.

[...]

For the Sovetsky Soyuz, which the Soviets were actually building and not a pure toilet paper design like so many other ships in this game, the guns she was supposed to have were these 406mm guns

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_16-50_m1937.php

In contrast is the USN 16"/50 for comparison.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_16-50_m1937.php

I expect Sovetsky Soyuz to be a High Tier BB, VIII or IX.  I expect her to have high velocity (for a BB) guns and proficient at range.  As for armor, I don't know anything about how that will go.  Her speed, guns look perfect for VIII-IX.

 

There's going to be some interesting paper filler going on with the RU BB Line.  You are going to have a generation gap.  The Russians last produced Battleship was Imperator Nikolai I of 1916.  Due to lots of factors, they don't get around back to Battleships again until they started building 4 Sovetsky Soyuz BBs in 1938.  WG is going to do some fantasy refits, paper mache work to fill a RU BB Line.  But Sovetsky Soyuz will at least be decently Real Deal and not some toilet paper b---crapimaginary ship.

We have the VMF BB shell data that was added to the client about 2-3 months back to help fill in the likely candidates. A possible example, based on recent discussions over the shells:

  • Tier III: "pre-Gangut"
  • Tier IV: Sevastopol
  • Tier V: Imperatritsa Mariya
  • Tier VI: Izmail/Borodino
  • Tier VII: Bubnov Design or Putilov 1/3 Designs
  • Tier VIII: Black Sea Project Dreadnought / Kostenko design
  • Tier IX: Sovetsky Soyuz - Project 23 or 23NU (different TDS style)
  • Tier X: Project 24

Sovetsky is looking to be a likely and solid T9; competing against Iowa, while having almost as much armor as Yamato in the forward sections in some places. Armor-wise, she'd be similar to Moskva/Stalingrad; in that the armor is really strong in the forward end, but quickly thins out towards the rear. A quintessential face-tanker that will begin to fall apart if she lets anyone catch her from the side.

Project 24 is Sovetsky on steroids, with a solid 400mm armor plate protecting the forward citadel, meaning she's immune to any kind of bow pen or overmatch, and just more armor on the sides than Sovetsky. WG seems to be giving her a fictional gun upgrade though; instead of higher velocity 406s as was planned for Sovetsky, there was Russian 457mm shell data added, leading to a likelihood of a 457mm Project 24 as the T10. 3x3 likely; probably 45s traverse. She can out-tank Yamato and possibly out-punch her simply due to having that armor plate in the bow area, leaving Yamato unable to punch back.

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It depends on what you think you will put yourself into a brawling situation.

If you're planning on pressuring BBs. The GK with a full Secondary is the best option. Pressure at max SB ranges and you're golden. 

If you're finding yourself running into DDs a great amount then République with her HE Secondaries will be valuable. And that says little of her high RoF Main Batteries. 

If you're pressuring Cruisers, then Yamato, those 155s have high potential IF you're lucky enough to Citadel while in Secondary Ranges. 

Conquer and Montana are decent IF you're "half-spec" and primarily focusing on AA or a Full Manual build. Their 127s and 134s don't need much outside of Range and Accuracy to perform. WHEN in tandem with their Main Batteries. 

Although stats wise I'm far from T10 BBs outside Yamato (own Musashi; grinding through Izumo) but if looking at the stats and numbers and I would run Secondaries them if I currently owned them. I'm a Secondary Cruiser player; if it would be potentially successful on a Cruiser it should be workable on a BB of the same nation. 

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I will buck the trend here and put Republique ahead of GK. 

Republique has a .4km longer secondary range, the HE fire % is much higher from it's secondary guns, and the secondary guns have higher damage stats than GK's by quite a bit. It only has 3 less secondary guns in total than GK, the 127MM ones have the same ROF as the GK's 128MM, and it's 152MM's only have a .4 sec slower ROF than the GK's 150MM. One thing that I am sure helps GK is that whole Km 1/4 pen HE thing however. I am sure that factors in to actual damage but honestly I do as much or more with my Republique than my GK as far as secondary performance goes.

Another thing that IMO factors in to secondary builds at least to a degree is main gun ROF, main gun rotation speed,  ship maneuverability, and of course armor. These are important factors when brawling as secondary guns alone won't generally save you in a fight. GK has more guns and slightly faster turrets but Republique has a huge advantage in ROF and shell damage. A wash or slight edge to Republique. Republique is much more maneuverable than GK however so big edge there in a brawl. Armor is not a clear cut winner as some are saying. Yes Republique has to worry about citadel hits but so does GK. You can cit GK through the bow just ahead of the front turrets pretty easy as it comes towards you and Republique's citadel is pretty heavily armored and not super easy to hit up close. Both ships are tough, both have well protected citadels, and both take massive regular pen salvos. Armor IMO is a wash.

I prefer Republique to GK for brawls. The secondary guns are at least as good (better IMO) as GK's and the maneuverability and faster ROF make it a better brawler. JMHO. BOTH however are very good and it is a very close contest. I think GK continues to be thought of as the ebst based off it's past glory days and reputation. I truly think Republique is a better brawler and better re: secondary builds. JMHO.

I know I only play Co-op so many will dismiss this view but actually this is one where maybe my view means more as Co-op involves a lot of brawls and close fighting where a secondary build actually plays into it and helps vs PVP where it is mostly ranged fighting. I use my secondary builds on the GK and Republique pretty much each and every game played.

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As usual, I tend to agree with you Admiral Thunder, and I voted for the Republique'.  I like the GK, very powerful secondary armament, and you've correctly summarized the details in your post, so I won't regurgitate them here.

The biggest problem with the great GK is that it is just a huge powerful pig, it "wallows" in the water due to its size, rudder shift and turning circle.  It is, of course, the biggest ship in game as far as dimensions outside of draft, and it plays that way.   You try to brawl in her in the middle of a map with dense islands and your only real option is to retreat. Turning =death.

All that sounds negative, but I do love the GK.  Its a great ship, the 1/4 German pen is superb too.

But the Republique! … fast, agile, fast rate of fire, HE secondaries, and can turn without changing zip codes.   Her secondaries go way out, (12.1 km!) so far in fact the of all the Tier 10 BB's,  that this is the only BB my Tier 8 Massachusetts (with it's 11.3 km secondaries) is really concerned about.  I have to close the distance fast, even though it's only .8 more, or get melted.

I play almost exclusively coop too, but I do find that I can kill a GK with a Republique' easier and faster than I can kill a Republique' with a GK. It feels like Sugar Ray peppering Mike Tyson.

Edited by nagasakee

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Kurfurst, her secondaries can wreck opposing ships. 

Edited by JSFWRX85

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republic wins handily more range + more effective main battery makes for a much better combo with that annoyingly hard to hit citadel

 

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8 hours ago, YamatoA150 said:

We have the VMF BB shell data that was added to the client about 2-3 months back to help fill in the likely candidates. A possible example, based on recent discussions over the shells:

  • Tier III: "pre-Gangut"
  • Tier IV: Sevastopol
  • Tier V: Imperatritsa Mariya
  • Tier VI: Izmail/Borodino
  • Tier VII: Bubnov Design or Putilov 1/3 Designs
  • Tier VIII: Black Sea Project Dreadnought / Kostenko design
  • Tier IX: Sovetsky Soyuz - Project 23 or 23NU (different TDS style)
  • Tier X: Project 24

Sovetsky is looking to be a likely and solid T9; competing against Iowa, while having almost as much armor as Yamato in the forward sections in some places. Armor-wise, she'd be similar to Moskva/Stalingrad; in that the armor is really strong in the forward end, but quickly thins out towards the rear. A quintessential face-tanker that will begin to fall apart if she lets anyone catch her from the side.

Project 24 is Sovetsky on steroids, with a solid 400mm armor plate protecting the forward citadel, meaning she's immune to any kind of bow pen or overmatch, and just more armor on the sides than Sovetsky. WG seems to be giving her a fictional gun upgrade though; instead of higher velocity 406s as was planned for Sovetsky, there was Russian 457mm shell data added, leading to a likelihood of a 457mm Project 24 as the T10. 3x3 likely; probably 45s traverse. She can out-tank Yamato and possibly out-punch her simply due to having that armor plate in the bow area, leaving Yamato unable to punch back.

Don’t make a full line. Why need one anyway? Already have 5 full and fairly unique lines to grind/choose from. Just make the few most “real” Russian B.B.’s either free xp premiums or some heavy grind sideshow from a same tier cruiser. 

Say the soyetski or whatever it’s called is gonna be a tier 9. You can choose to grind through chappy up to the donski on the left side of the tree and/or you can choose to grind the B.B. on the right. Done! 

So give the Russian 3-4 B.B. a few tier 2-5 and then a tier 9 or 10. No need to conjure up a bunch of bologna. Preserve some of the little historical value in the game. There already a dozen various Russian premiums to use as captain trainers. 

Do same thing with Italians. Not all ww2 participants had massive navies with 20 ship types and 100 year pedigrees and that’s ok.

Edited by thebigblue

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8 hours ago, _Marines said:

I think it would be more appropriate to allow Russia and Italy's tech tree to end at Tier 8 or so.

6 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

Don’t make a full line.

Never going to happen.  WG said that making the IJN sub branch end at Tier 8 was a mistake, and they said from then on every line would go all the way to Tier 10.  At this point given how many fictitious Tier 10 ships there already are (and by fictitious I mean not even paper), it makes no sense to arbitrarily draw the line in the sand with Soviet BBs.

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38 minutes ago, yashma said:

Never going to happen.  WG said that making the IJN sub branch end at Tier 8 was a mistake, and they said from then on every line would go all the way to Tier 10.  At this point given how many fictitious Tier 10 ships there already are (and by fictitious I mean not even paper), it makes no sense to arbitrarily draw the line in the sand with Soviet BBs.

I’m fine with Russians having a 10. Just sidestep off a cruiser instead of futzing around with a whole line of unknowns.

i still think making Russian t 10 B.B. a free xp premium is the best solution.

Edited by thebigblue

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