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Sepia

HE meta is boring...

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Is it just me or is half of your team sitting behind an island spamming HE. i thought sitting in smoke and spamming HE was such an issue that they created Radar, hydro, etc to counter it? So why is spamming HE from behind islands ok? Brawling is probably the most enjoyable part of the game for me and I just dont see it being viable.

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worcester is probably in line for a nerf anyway. probably rudder shift.

i love how the community ranted when the mino had HE on PTS because we didnt want more HE spam, and now we have basically that.

worcester and hurugumo are probably not healthy for the game.

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Sounds like tier X to me, you can blame a specific class ship about the lack of play styles in the upper tiers. DD CV have been given the biggest nerf bat of all. Until the community is open to other play styles then, HE spamming will be the norm.

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ive been getting a lot of games with a conq, des moines, zao, worc, haragumo. just endless HE spam. no positioning at all.

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1 minute ago, Navalpride33 said:

Sounds like tier X to me, you can blame a specific class ship about the lack of play styles in the upper tiers. DD CV have been given the biggest nerf bat of all. Until the community is open to other play styles then, HE spamming will be the norm.

amazing isnt it, we went from DDs being fairly powerful, to BBs being absurdly OP with a lack of counters, to a cruiser meta.

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In a BB im more afraid of cruisers than anything else. You just get spammed and cant return fire most of the time. Half the time you can instantly delete a DD with a BB which I find absurd. I thought Light cruisers existed to counter DD and DD existed to counter BB. Seems like things are all out of whack.

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Perhaps nerf the fire chance to 5%. Same as Atlanta. Even with such a low fire chance you start plenty fires.

EDIT: Was talking about the wooster sauce. :3

 

Edited by LemonadeWarrior

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12 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

worcester is probably in line for a nerf anyway. probably rudder shift.

i love how the community ranted when the mino had HE on PTS because we didnt want more HE spam, and now we have basically that.

worcester and hurugumo are probably not healthy for the game.

I'm so torn on this right now because i think Hurugumo is the answer to balancing radar, it gives power back to the DDs. How you ask? 

 

Radar cruisers now have to think more and can't just push up like they did before and radar/punish whoever is in the cap, these dds combined with worcesters/minos can send radar ships back to the port real fast.....

 

At the same time torp DDs are finding life when played smart because the new DD can't dodge a torp to save its life. 

 

Alot of games I'm playing now, US radar ships are getting snuffed out early followed by the new Jap DDs by torps, and then the other dds are back in a game where they are not under radar every sec. The new ships punish bad play to the max,

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32 minutes ago, Sepia said:

So why is spamming HE from behind islands ok?

Because for Cruisers it's the smart way to play. Or are they supposed to drive around in the open where BBs can one salvo delete them with AP? And HE is the only means that most Cruisers have to do decent damage to BBs.

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17 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

Because for Cruisers it's the smart way to play. Or are they supposed to drive around in the open where BBs can one salvo delete them with AP? And HE is the only means that most Cruisers have to do decent damage to BBs.

Most cruisers in the game do have torpedoes and AP shells. They also have the ability to ram the BBs as well. Not to mention I have killed BBs with cruiser secondary guns few times.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

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50 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

worcester and hurugumo are probably not healthy for the game.

Wait until ranked.

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57 minutes ago, Sepia said:

Is it just me or is half of your team sitting behind an island spamming HE. i thought sitting in smoke and spamming HE was such an issue that they created Radar, hydro, etc to counter it? So why is spamming HE from behind islands ok? Brawling is probably the most enjoyable part of the game for me and I just dont see it being viable.

Why brawl and face torps and HE spam when you can use the range your guns give you and never get hit by torps and rarely enough by HE that you can easily manage it?

Think about it this way, what good is having 20+ km range if you never use it? The manufacturer built those guns to fire at that range because the Navy found value in it. So should you.

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everybody is scared of everything. Because everything punishes you really hard, and you get no rewards for making plays. I've been in plenty of games where I tried to get a cap and died only to spectate the rest of the battle and witness nobody even attempt to cap until like 12 minutes into the match. You get no rewards for drawing and "tanking" fire. You get no rewards for radar'ing/hydro'ing enemy ships for your team to shoot at. If you spot you hardly get rewarded. Basically it comes down to who can farm the most damage and steal the most kills. Simple as that. You're not playing a team game, you're playing a 1vs12 with 11 other randoms.

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Frankly I don't think HE is the problem -- the way spotting works is fundamentally stupid at high tiers. Go back and play like T4 or even T7 and you'll find almost a completely different game. You can shockingly see what the hell is shooting at you most of the time. Play a game of T10 or god help you a mediocre ship uptiered from T8 to T10 and you'll spend most of the game playing hide and go seek because if you get spotted you'll get spammed from invisible targets or wrecked from insane BB alpha. I thought that we all agreed that stealth fire was bad and that was why it was removed. At least that required certain ships/builds and took some skill to use properly. Now you stop, smoke, and shoot. The only real counter is blind firing into the smoke but thanks to unaimed dispersion you won't hit much or hard counter it with radar. We traded a meta where you had to actually work to make your OP skill function to one where you press T to win but hope the enemy doesn't press Y! 

It's unfortunate. I took a break for almost a year only to come back to whatever you want to call this. 

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16 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Most cruisers in the game do have torpedoes and AP shells. They also have the ability to ram the BBs as well. Not to mention I have killed BBs with cruiser secondary guns few times.

You kinda need to get close enough first. Most of the high tier maps don't afford you a path to that Montana/Yamato in the back. There's a reason why it's called Tears of the Cruisers.

Also I've gotten Close Combat Expert before in my Kiev - secondary kills are just random unless you're actually speced for it. 

Either way that's not an argument for CAs being somehow able to deal with raw BB alpha. 

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9 minutes ago, TruePoindexter said:

Frankly I don't think HE is the problem -- the way spotting works is fundamentally stupid at high tiers. Go back and play like T4 or even T7 and you'll find almost a completely different game. You can shockingly see what the hell is shooting at you most of the time. Play a game of T10 or god help you a mediocre ship uptiered from T8 to T10 and you'll spend most of the game playing hide and go seek because if you get spotted you'll get spammed from invisible targets or wrecked from insane BB alpha. I thought that we all agreed that stealth fire was bad and that was why it was removed. At least that required certain ships/builds and took some skill to use properly. Now you stop, smoke, and shoot. The only real counter is blind firing into the smoke but thanks to unaimed dispersion you won't hit much or hard counter it with radar. We traded a meta where you had to actually work to make your OP skill function to one where you press T to win but hope the enemy doesn't press Y! 

It's unfortunate. I took a break for almost a year only to come back to whatever you want to call this. 

you're making it sound like smoke is to blame. Smoke is countered easier than ever before in it's current iteration. It's probably the spotting system, and it's quirks that are to blame though. Just like in WoT when I played it. Some pieces of terrain clearly don't block vision, but they do for the purposes of detection and vice versa. It's really wonky, and sadly very prone to abuse.

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The odd man out is heavy cruisers. At t10 heavy cruisers are fine for the most part. But mostly what do heavy cruisers counter? If a heavy cruiser is supposed to sail in open water due to low trajectory shells, how can they target island camping light cruisers. Just seems odd to me.

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More "1 Fire and I use DCP" players.  I love you guys.

14 minutes ago, Sepia said:

The odd man out is heavy cruisers. At t10 heavy cruisers are fine for the most part. But mostly what do heavy cruisers counter? If a heavy cruiser is supposed to sail in open water due to low trajectory shells, how can they target island camping light cruisers. Just seems odd to me.


Yet those CAs at High Tier do pretty well and are some of the most liked Cruisers.

Zao

Hindenburg

Kronshtadt & Stalingrad earn their living with AP and are doing well.

DM is quirky but does just as well in the world of Tier X Cruisers.

 

The stealth options + torpedoes + gun trifecta for IJN CAs come into full bloom in High Tier.  With Zao receiving 12km torps recently, this is fully realized now going into Tier X.

French CAs are at their full potential starting with Tier VIII Charles Martel and roll on into X Henri IV with her 240mm guns.

German Cruisers also start realizing their true potential starting in Tier VIII and roll on into glorious Hindenburg into Tier X.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Shorter version of what I responded to someone else on a similar subject -

  • Even at tier 10 most ships decks and upper armour we see is 32 mm - anything that is 100 mm -127 mm 1/4 HE pen can pen this with IFHE (so the IJN DD branch that was just finished), Anything above that (German cruisers, BB's with 1/4) don't even need IFHE. Anything using 1/6 needs to be 148 mm or larger with IFHE, or 193 mm without, to punch through that. A few ships have 38 mm in spots/deck, German cruisers and BB's still ignore that, and with IFHE only Fredrich, the tier 9 German BB, has any deck/upper armour that can stop HE pens as it has 2 sections of 80 mm deck armour.
  • Same 33% rule applies to HE pens on damage dealt. 100 mm range, your looking around 400 per hit. 127 mm, 5-600 per hit. 152 mm 700 per hit. 203 mm guns around 900 per hit. Battleships range between 1000 (Scharn) - 2700 (Conq with 457 mm guns). These numbers start adding up, especially with higher RoF, and only 50% of pen damage can be repaired. 
  • BB's take 10.4% (all the fire burn time reduction) - 18% (none), carriers take roughly 14% -24% HP. Cruisers/DD's are I think 5%-9%. Those numbers are PER fire. So a BB with no fire reductions takes 36% HP of health if they have to let 2 fires burn. Generally other than UK super heal you can only heal 14% HP of damage, 16.8% with the flag.
  • HE there is no angle, range where energy is lost, etc it's straight pass fail, you have enough armour or you don't and especially with IFHE most ships don't. 

So, unless it's broadside where you know you can citadel it - why bother throwing AP at it in most cases. Sure an AP pen can do more damage, how much depends on shell. Battleship may be around 2k damage per hit. CA, around 700 more per hit. 152 mm or under, it's maybe 300 per hit or less. Plus HE has the fires, won't overpen, etc. Most of the time sitting behind an island, in smoke, etc throwing HE at ships is more effectie than AP, unless again, you get a broadside ship in the open. And depending on ship you can still citadel it possibly with HE. 

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5 hours ago, Sepia said:

Is it just me or is half of your team sitting behind an island spamming HE. i thought sitting in smoke and spamming HE was such an issue that they created Radar, hydro, etc to counter it? So why is spamming HE from behind islands ok? Brawling is probably the most enjoyable part of the game for me and I just dont see it being viable.

Why is Radar meta ok?
Why is nerfing the lowest performing ship since beta ok?
Why is leaving BBs unchecked and overpowered since 2015 ok?
Why are low risk ships netting highest reward?

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Cruisers counter bb's better then dd (except Khab and ijn gunboats)

 

 

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Disruptive technologies cause cultures to question the basic value history has proven to be valid over time....long periods of time.  Radar as implemented and HE spam have done this.  An example:  when I started playing less than a year ago, "roles" seemed to be pretty much as expected.  As a DD driver, I could get to caps and "look for the enemy" and disengage if necessary....  Only one in a hundred matches would I get too deep into the engagement window and not escape.  Fast for ward to yesterday.  Same maps.   Just getting to the cap was not possible....  We had constant radar from where we were 2 KM near the cap and that ran for 6 minutes without interruption.  The enemy had 4 radar cruisers on that cap.  2 radar cruisers on the second cap and all of their DD's there (a Kagero and a Shima 5.4 and 5.6 respectively)  For 12 minutes, an entire team had to snipe because our DD (me and 3 others) simply couldn't even approach the caps and long firing torps was futile......  Of course, we lost....

Meta swings game play by changing the expectations and roles history created.....  Once that happens, entire cultures remain hostile for long periods of time......we are there.....

What is the point of having DD's if they can't physically perform their historically correct roles?   My answer is one ship = one radar; and, 2 HE rapid fire salvos and then the dispersion increases for every salvo after unless there is a two minute cool down  (super heating a gun tube increases the diameter of the tube decreasing the friction necessary for accuracy (modern ballistic computers take this into consideration as well as gun tube life...)

Till the meta's change or evolve, many of us have stopped playing tier 9 and 10 completely.  No clan involvement at all and we've seeing players "retire", "take a long breaks" and, leave the game.  Losing one player to a sales gimmick is bad in a super small, brown ocean, niche market because they talk to dozens of other players in other games whom then talk to dozens of others....   Word of mouth in a small niche market is powerful.....

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37 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

Disruptive technologies cause cultures to question the basic value history has proven to be valid over time....long periods of time.  Radar as implemented and HE spam have done this.  An example:  when I started playing less than a year ago, "roles" seemed to be pretty much as expected.  As a DD driver, I could get to caps and "look for the enemy" and disengage if necessary....  Only one in a hundred matches would I get too deep into the engagement window and not escape.  Fast for ward to yesterday.  Same maps.   Just getting to the cap was not possible....  We had constant radar from where we were 2 KM near the cap and that ran for 6 minutes without interruption.  The enemy had 4 radar cruisers on that cap.  2 radar cruisers on the second cap and all of their DD's there (a Kagero and a Shima 5.4 and 5.6 respectively)  For 12 minutes, an entire team had to snipe because our DD (me and 3 others) simply couldn't even approach the caps and long firing torps was futile......  Of course, we lost....

Meta swings game play by changing the expectations and roles history created.....  Once that happens, entire cultures remain hostile for long periods of time......we are there.....

What is the point of having DD's if they can't physically perform their historically correct roles?   My answer is one ship = one radar; and, 2 HE rapid fire salvos and then the dispersion increases for every salvo after unless there is a two minute cool down  (super heating a gun tube increases the diameter of the tube decreasing the friction necessary for accuracy (modern ballistic computers take this into consideration as well as gun tube life...)

Till the meta's change or evolve, many of us have stopped playing tier 9 and 10 completely.  No clan involvement at all and we've seeing players "retire", "take a long breaks" and, leave the game.  Losing one player to a sales gimmick is bad in a super small, brown ocean, niche market because they talk to dozens of other players in other games whom then talk to dozens of others....   Word of mouth in a small niche market is powerful.....

The difference is balancing the game subjectively vs objectively.

For ANY balance model to be feasible, you have to balance the game objectively. This requires going by the data, analyzing the data professionally to remove as much skew as possible, and disregard metrics that are not indicative of balance because they have too much unaccountable skew (like WR).

What WG has done is balance the game subjectively. Holding opinion, of personal and vocal minority, at a higher standard than data, than truth. In many cases completely and irrefutably contradicting the evidence in their decisions.

When you balance the game and make the model unfeasible, you also have the side effect of creating HARD META, as opposed to SOFT META. In a HARD META, hard counters exist, skill is less weighted ... even void in some cases, and Risk vs Reward is broken.

There is a reason the META is hiding behind islands and spamming HE. 
There is a reason the META is BBs hiding in the back.

BBs were allowed to have overpowered accuracy and it still has yet to be addressed. This made it perfectly viable to snipe at long range. BB Risk went down, Reward went up.  If it wasn't profitable, they wouldn't do it. This caused Cruisers Risk to increase and Reward to decrease. If they didn't spend a lot more time hiding, they would get blapped by 1-3, probably even undetected BBs from well outside the Cruisers OWN range to retaliate anyway. Instead of correcting the issue at the root cause, instead of fixing Risk vs Reward, they decided to nerf the already least performing ship directly and indirectly over and over and over ( torp nerfs, Radar, OWSF, anti-DD DD lines)... JUST to make Cruisers seem more viable.  This caused DDs to drop not only to the lowest performing ship but the lowest populated (second only to CVs). It is one big cascade. Since Cruisers don't have enough prey, the game is now  being balanced around  BBs fighting CAs, CAs fighting BBs, DDs fighting DDs, and everyone killing DDs.

 

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8 hours ago, Slumlord_Cheeto said:

I'm so torn on this right now because i think Hurugumo is the answer to balancing radar, it gives power back to the DDs. 

I think it's a band-aid answer though.

IMO, any balancing attempt that relies on a specific ship line/nation being present is a band-aid. Sure, it can fix the appearance of the big picture overall, but does nothing for games where that ship isn't present.

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2 hours ago, zarth12 said:

Why are low risk ships netting highest reward?

Because WG insists on making those low-risk ships' primary strength the most important metric used in reward calculation.

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