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NoZoupForYou

Saving Tier 8 - How do we do it?

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Tier 8 (and 5) has an issue.  But how do we fix it?  +1 -1?  What do you all think?

 

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I think it's fine. All the t8 ships are pretty good and uptier we'll save monarch which I personally hate.

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If T8 premiums had +1/-1 MM like in WoT there would be a lot more matches were T8 would be top tier.

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Some of my most favorite ships are T8 but I hardly play them anymore cause they're always in a T10 battle

I think if tier 8 is slated to be in tier 10 games then they should get some of the perks of  T9 and T10 Mostly I miss not having a heal like everything else above it does

 I would be OK with a +1 - 1 also

Edited by silverdahc
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I think reigning in the higher tier premiums would probably make things a bit easier on the tier 8 ships.

Though, Soup, you can't base the changes on the one reddit post, if that was indeed the post you meant when you spoke of it in your video.  That one post, the user was basing his results on less than a hundred battles, of one specific ship, which is not a fair test.  You need to collect data on thousands of games, from as many different tier 8 ships as possible, in order to smooth out the 'streaks' in matchmaking.

Yes, it feels like tier 8 matchmaking is rough, but that may simply be confirmation bias.

It would be awesome if Wargaming would share it's collected statistics on tier 8 games.  That would be the ultimate judgement on whether tier 8 ships get into T9/T10 battles more often than T8.  Only then could we try to figure out how to make things better.

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3 minutes ago, Gen_Saris said:

If T8 premiums had +1/-1 MM like in WoT there would be a lot more matches were T8 would be top tier.

And then you would have to introduce +1 (there's no such thing as -1, you are uptiered, you are never downtiered, because that makes you top tier) to all tiers, because making T8 only +1 would have unseen and unintended consequences.  The more you divide up your player base, the longer matchmaker would take to fill up a game, and you'd end up with worse games because matchmaker gets to break rules the longer it takes to fill a game.

And we can't do this without having access to the stats for tier 8 ships, as far as how often they get into T# games.

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I think the problem with matchmaking is not about the tier 8, but about individual ships.
For example, almost all tier 8 battleships can do fine at tier 10, for they all can possess competitive concealment and have excellent maneuverbility, while their artillery are all still fairly capable, with North Carolina being a good prime example.

What really struggles are ships that are out matched in every way. Tier 8 destroyers, especially the vanilla ones without gimmicks and IJN cruisers with their poor gun range, poor DPM and fragile armor. The match maker itself is okay. Besides, you can only get better when fighting challenging adversaries, yeah?

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I don't understand how so many players have issues performing in tier 8 vs higher tiers. 

This isnt WOT were you cant pen a E100 in a Tiger 2.  Tier 8 is fine.. .
 

Out of all the lobby games I have played, world of warships has the least difficult up tiering I have ever seen.   World of tanks, World of Warplanes, Warthunder are all much more brutal when faced uptiered machines. 

 

I think the problem here is behind the screen and in between the ears, not the game itself. 

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When I did a search there are over 1,000 posts since the forum launched complaining about MM but you all keep saying it's fine? Anyone that says it's fine is delusional.

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I agree with Zoup and have felt that more often than not in games I am the sole T 8 ship against nothing but T 10's as if a freebie for them to rack up points on.    I've occasionally experienced this at other tiers but not as I have in T 8 play.    Perhaps WoW's Staff needs to revisit this issue with consideration of reworking their match making at this level.   Granted I'm far from a great, perhaps even good player, but I had already noticed this before I saw Zoup's video regarding this.

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6 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

I think the problem here is behind the screen and in between the ears, not the game itself. 

To a certain extent I think you are right, but battle after battle in which I am bottom tier is not good for the soul, especially when my teams fall apart and lose time after time.

Being one of four or five T8's makes it quite bearable. Being the only one is awful, and I think WG should be prepared to let 11v11 or 10v10 matches through rather than permit that.

Not all of us are good enough to make a heavy impact as a lone T8 in a T10-heavy game. I accept that there is a good deal of "git gud scrub" that needs to happen, but damn it can be harsh.

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Simple solution for all tiers and CV's. Cant currently watch the video as Im at work lol.

Bottom tier ships/planes get a 5%-10% increase in HP (hull or plane) and AA capability. Ships in a 2 tier battle wouldnt receive this bonus.

This will help all bottom tiered ships or CV's, bringing their defensive stats up to roughly equal of the middle tier ships.

1) It will allow T8 planes to survive a couple of seconds longer in a T10 match where top tier AA often means instant death.

2) It will give bottom tier ships better AA to face a top tier CV. Nothing more demoralizing that to be a T8 BB facing a T10 CV.....although being a T6 German BB facing a GZ is kinda sad too.

3) It will give bottom tier ships a slightly larger health pool.

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Well, WG can manipulate team lineups to push more T8s into the lower tiers. For instance, if all tier 10 games were made up of 80% tier 10s, then there wouldn't be much space left for tier 9 and 8 ships, causing those to be in their own battles a lot more. The difficulty is that those tier 8s that do end up in tier 10 will be almost entirely alone. One could go the opposite way as well: have each tier 10 battle only made up of 20% tier 10 ships, which would pretty much guarantee that tier 8s play all their battles in tier 10, but would result in them mostly playing each other. 

 

I'd also like to note how different ships feel to play when they are top tier. I remember being impressed in the last season of ranked battles how aggressive I could be in my bismarck- pushing entire flanks and gladly accepting 1v1 duels, as oppose to the typical random game, where I spend most of my time scurrying between the feet of Montanas and Yammys, hoping not to get stomped on. 

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I don’t have a problem with tier VIII MM in this game. The Rock-Paper-Scissors balance structure between classes still holds up even when you’re punching above your tier number. 

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2 minutes ago, senseNOTmade said:

Well, WG can manipulate team lineups to push more T8s into the lower tiers. For instance, if all tier 10 games were made up of 80% tier 10s, then there wouldn't be much space left for tier 9 and 8 ships, causing those to be in their own battles a lot more. The difficulty is that those tier 8s that do end up in tier 10 will be almost entirely alone. One could go the opposite way as well: have each tier 10 battle only made up of 20% tier 10 ships, which would pretty much guarantee that tier 8s play all their battles in tier 10, but would result in them mostly playing each other. 

The problem is that at times, there are not enough tier 10s playing to make up full games all the time.  So they need lower tiers to fill in.

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16 hours ago, Cobraclutch said:

I don't understand how so many players have issues performing in tier 8 vs higher tiers. 

I don't understand how so many players have issues with understanding that the issue is not "performing" but the fact that constant uptiering makes gameplay a trial instead of fun. 

16 hours ago, Cobraclutch said:

I think the problem here is behind the screen and in between the ears, not the game itself. 

I agree. The problem here is behind the screen and in between ears. 

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Just now, Taichunger said:

I don't understand how so many players have issues with understanding that the issue is not "performing" but the fact that constant uptiering makes gameplay a trial instead of fun. 

I agree. The problem here is behind the screen and in between ears. 

 

9 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

To a certain extent I think you are right, but battle after battle in which I am bottom tier is not good for the soul, especially when my teams fall apart and lose time after time.

Being one of four or five T8's makes it quite bearable. Being the only one is awful, and I think WG should be prepared to let 11v11 or 10v10 matches through rather than permit that.

Not all of us are good enough to make a heavy impact as a lone T8 in a T10-heavy game. I accept that there is a good deal of "git gud scrub" that needs to happen, but damn it can be harsh.

I am  probably biased due to having encountered these situations in the past.  However I really enjoyed my tier 8 ships. 

 

There are however some ships that I did not enjoy. Such as the Hipper or Benson.. But both these ships were before they ever received any buffs....

 

But I can't say I really feel like its a chore.. I look at it more as a challenge to perform better.. I really enjoyed my ognevoi / edinburgh / and cleveland which don't exactly uptier that well.. To each their own i guess. 

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32 minutes ago, Gen_Saris said:

If T8 premiums had +1/-1 MM like in WoT there would be a lot more matches were T8 would be top tier.

Not all tier 8 premiums in WoT have preferential mm like this, only some do. Also, they do get top tier a lot, but they’re balanced around only being top tier. They struggle when they’re middle tier. And WG has acknowledged this and is going back and buffing every one of the tanks that has preferential mm atm because if that reason. They’ve also stated that the preferential mm for those vehicles has caused lots of issues and in hindsight it was a mistake to give them that.

Edited by renegadestatuz

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@NoZoupForYou this has been hashed and rehashed. The solutions are obvious -- one tier MM instead of two tier. There's no excuse not to do that at peak hours. Revert the restricted T4 MM. Etc. T5, 6, and 8 used to be my favorite tiers. Now I avoid them. 

The devs don't play the game, so it is impossible for them to grasp what they have done to it, especially with the T4 MM change. 

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I vote with my feet, don't buy T8 premiums, play it the minimum possible by power-grinding it.

 

That may exacerbate things for other T8 players, but honestly tough. Only if it reaches a tipping point will WG do anything about it. I suspect though that by T8 people are 'hooked' enough to just complain and carry on.

Can I succeed in T8? Yes. Do I enjoy it? Mostly not, playing against significantly better ships 60-70% of the time is not enjoyable and goes against my sense of fair play. Now where's that Scharnhorst ;)

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1 minute ago, Taichunger said:

The solutions are obvious -- one tier MM instead of two tier. There's no excuse not to do that at peak hours

Another potential solution is that instead of putting one or two T8 ships in a T10-heavy game, let the battle go through as 11v11 or 10v10.

One or two T8's in a T6-7 heavy game won't exactly break things either; most T7's can probably deal with a T8 ship pretty well, and quite a few T6's can do so if driven well. 

Ranked was a solution (pure T8 battles with no uptiering), but now Ranked is T10 from increasingly low levels. I'd be happy to be able to sell my stars for gold or silver or something and start back at Rank 23 just to draw out the fun (such as it is) a bit more.

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4 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

@NoZoupForYou this has been hashed and rehashed. The solutions are obvious -- one tier MM instead of two tier. There's no excuse not to do that at peak hours. Revert the restricted T4 MM. Etc. T5, 6, and 8 used to be my favorite tiers. Now I avoid them. 

The devs don't play the game, so it is impossible for them to grasp what they have done to it, especially with the T4 MM change. 

Maybe not every last dev plays the game, some of the devs do not work on matchmaking or coding.  However, Wargaming has access to all the stats.  They can fully understand what their changes have wrought, if they choose to.  IF they consider it a problem, they will take steps to correct it.

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18 minutes ago, senseNOTmade said:

Well, WG can manipulate team lineups to push more T8s into the lower tiers. For instance, if all tier 10 games were made up of 80% tier 10s, then there wouldn't be much space left for tier 9 and 8 ships, causing those to be in their own battles a lot more. The difficulty is that those tier 8s that do end up in tier 10 will be almost entirely alone. One could go the opposite way as well: have each tier 10 battle only made up of 20% tier 10 ships, which would pretty much guarantee that tier 8s play all their battles in tier 10, but would result in them mostly playing each other. 

 

I'd also like to note how different ships feel to play when they are top tier. I remember being impressed in the last season of ranked battles how aggressive I could be in my bismarck- pushing entire flanks and gladly accepting 1v1 duels, as oppose to the typical random game, where I spend most of my time scurrying between the feet of Montanas and Yammys, hoping not to get stomped on. 

Basically, what you're describing is similar to the current (IIRC) MM in World of Tanks, where in in battles with +/-2 tier MM, the tier mix is 3/5/7, or for battles that are +/-1 tier, I think that it's something like 5/10.  If this concept was carried over to WoWS, tier 10 battles might look like 2 t10's, 4 t9's, and 6 tier 8's or if there were enough t10's and t9's for full teams, it would be like 4 t10's and 8 t9's, and if there were enough t10's in the queue, you might have 2 teams full of t10's.

This concept seems  fine to me, though when you try to also mix in having equal numbers of each ship type, at each tier, it might end up causing much longer queue times.

 

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The only factor that I struggle with being a T8 uptiered to T10 is the Fire Resistance Coefficient for T10 is so much better compared to T8 ships (.5005 vs .6337 for top hulls).  Even fire slinging T8 ships have to work much harder to get fires when uptiered.  

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