Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Your_Ship_Is_On_Fire

The T8-T10 elephant in the room

54 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
454 posts
7,982 battles

High tier needs a drastic overhaul. I spent a lot of time playing my T-61 this weekend and the games were fun. Peopled helped teammates. People played aggressive, and passive when appropriate. As many forum regulars may have noticed there has been a few high tier complaints over the years but NOTHING SUCCESSFUL has been done to fix it. The one overriding feeling you get when going to high tier is how the pace of the game slows down to a snails pace. When you stop to realize it and look around you see yourself being used as bate as a teammate hides off in the distance. When this isn't happening you see games where teams are riding the edge of the map boundaries or never leaving the starting area. WG try did address this by making repair bills no longer tied to how much damage received. It's still common to see several ships racing toward the corner of the map on a losing game. This is something you almost NEVER see on a lower tier game anymore. The next attempted fix was a remedy to "torpedo soup" which involved nerfing the Shimakaze. Then there was hydro. None of these things worked. There has been a lot more than that but nothing changed. 

I wonder if the maps are genuinely too small for the massive range of guns and torpedoes at high tier. Would it be better to increase map size or do an across the board range nerf on all ordinances to increase player mobility?

While I don't have the answers I do realize there is a problem. What do you guys think? 

Edited by EpicFlails
  • Cool 3
  • Bad 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
504 posts
12,779 battles

It's been said over and over.

You can't turn sheep into wolves.

Some people will always hide no matter how advantageous it is to brawl.

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
365
[WOLF5]
Members
1,330 posts
7,332 battles
9 minutes ago, EpicFlails said:

High tier needs a drastic overhaul. I spent a lot of time playing my T-61 this weekend and the games were fun. Peopled helped teammates. People played aggressive, and passive when appropriate. As many forum regulars may have noticed there has been a few high tier complaints over the years but NOTHING SUCCESSFUL has been done to fix it. The one overriding feeling you get when going to high tier is how the pace of the game slows down to a snails pace. When you stop to realize it and look around you see yourself being used as bate as a teammate hides off in the distance. When this isn't happening you see games where teams are riding the edge of the map boundaries or never leaving the starting area. WG try did address this by making repair bills no longer tied to how much damage received. It's still common to see several ships racing toward the corner of the map on a losing game. This is something you almost NEVER see on a lower tier game anymore. The next attempted fix was a remedy to torpedo soup which involved nerfing the Shimakaze. Then there was hydro. None of these things worked. There has been a lot more than that but nothing changed. 

I wonder if the maps are genuinely too small for the massive range of guns and torpedoes at high tier. Would it be better to increase map size or do an across the board range nerf on all ordinances to increase player mobility?

While I don't have the answers I do realize there is a problem. What do you guys think? 

That is what happens to the end game when you balance the game subjectively and contradictory to logical conclusions that can be gained from the data.
That is why BBs have been able to remain overpowered since 2015, the same reason why DDs have been underpowered and the lowest performer since the game was playable at any state. That is why you have Radar in the game, situational awareness free to all, and even BBs with better concealment then some cruisers.

"Torpedo soup" is nothing more than hyperbole, and regurgitating it only admits ignorance. I raise you single digit hit rate for torpedoes since launch. 

Edited by zarth12
  • Cool 3
  • Boring 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,967
[INTEL]
Members
8,828 posts
26,291 battles
16 hours ago, EpicFlails said:

High tier needs a drastic overhaul. I spent a lot of time playing my T-61 this weekend and the games were fun. Peopled helped teammates. People played

While I don't have the answers I do realize there is a problem. What do you guys think? 

I switched to T7 as well, games just much more fun.

T10 problem is that firepower scales faster than defensive power. That means any ship in T10 that pushes up is dead within a minute, either dev struck or burnt. That in turn means no one wants to push up and you can't lead a push because you'll be dead.

The presence of high ROF ships like Mino, Worc, and now the new IJN DDs further degrades gameplay -- there is nothing fun about being hosed by a stream of fire that cannot be ameliorated or stopped, except by hiding.  

The addition of radar means that DD play has become stale and repetitive, adding to the staleness and forcing DD drivers out of the normal role of spotting, capping, and controlling the gameflow.

There is not a single T10 map that offers flowing gameplay with small islands to hide behind that enable players to move up. Maps like Sea of Fortune and Loop force players to choose between camping beyond the islands or entering them to die early. Those choices are terrible.

The sadness is twofold: WG wants everyone in T10 (preferably in BBs, possibly in CAs, but definitely not in DDs) and yet T10 gameplay sucks.

If you want reform, you need to reduce firepower/increase defensive power, and produce lots and lots of new maps. 

Edited by Taichunger
  • Cool 13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
454 posts
7,982 battles
1 minute ago, zarth12 said:

That is what happens to the end game when you balance the game subjectively and contradictory to logical conclusions that can be gained from the data.
That is why BBs have been able to remain overpowered since 2015, the same reason why DDs have been underpowered and the lowest performer since the game was playable at any state.

"Torpedo soup" is nothing more than hyperbole, and regurgitating it only admits ignorance. I raise you single digit hit rate for torpedoes since launch. 

Forgive me for not putting it in quotes. I was simply repeating something Wargaming itself said. You can also say that while the torpedo hit rate was low it was still an effective deterrent against movement.  Lets not let this de-evolve into grasping at the stats straw man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45
[KRAK]
Members
851 posts
11,049 battles

When I come in at T8, I am immediately focused fired on by all T9-10s. I have been flat out outgunned at 10 km by Worcester, boy was that a lesson. So what is a clunky Bismarck doing in this super ship battle ? Easy;  why not get an easy 69K damage when its right there in front of you, red team is saying. Or I could slink around on the edges and wait for the odd circumstance. This is a boring approach, would rather mow the yard or trim a bush. Since there is no penalty for damage on your ship, I just go right in and fight like normal, and get taken out quickly. Don't really care about changing that outcome, beyond my capabilities. Reason for my low survival and low win rate. I'm sure this is just as WG intended though. They have meetings on all types of player reactions to things about the game.

As a T8, I don't want to play against T6 and T7 ships, I want to play T8s.

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
337
[H_]
Members
932 posts

And Now, we have the Radar meta that drives DD's away from caps and deep spotting....  It's a lot worse now at tier 10 because the BB CPT's are getting even more frustrated because there is no real "middle map" game going and that spots deeper targets....  This is only getting worse because more and more players are avoiding tier 9 and 10 and playing down with their Tier 7 Cruisers and.......................radar.  I was in a Tier 5 match and there was a division of Tier 7 cruisers.  Needless to say, that was a MASSACRE of epic proportions.  And then, the next match and the next match were the same with different Tier 7 CPT's and ships.  Those little white numbers were 20-22.....Hmmmm.  Meta farming 101.

The only way to fix this is One Radar = One Ship; and, life would go back to "reasonable".   I can deal with one radar ship with one set of eyes.  Two, three and four just obliterate me well before I can escape.....  So, we've stopped playing Tier 9 and 10 completely and we now can't field a Clan.  Only a Division.  Well done WG, well done...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,330
[GWG]
[GWG]
Members
5,587 posts
10,041 battles

One BIG reason to run for the corner when the match is lost --- is not about the repair bill.

It's about DREADNOUGHT FLAGS.  You get 10 of them if you survive a match with >100% damage. 

YOLO and die at the end -- you miss out.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
454 posts
7,982 battles
8 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

I switched to T7 as well, games just much more fun.

T10 problem is that firepower scales faster than defensive power. That means any ship in T10 that pushes up is dead within a minute, either dev struck or burnt. That in turn means no one wants to push up and you can't lead a push because you'll be dead.

The presence of high ROF ships like Mino, Worc, and now the new IJN DDs further degrades gameplay -- there is nothing fun about being hosed by a stream of fire that cannot be ameliorated or stopped, except by hiding.  

The addition of radar means that DD play has become stale and repetitive, adding to the staleness and forcing DD drivers out of the normal role of spotting, capping, and controlling the gameflow.

There is not a single T10 map that offers flowing gameplay with small islands to hide behind that enable players to move up. Maps like Sea of Fortune and Loop force players to choose between camping beyond the islands or entering them to die early. Those choices are terrible.

The sadness is twofold: WG wants everyone in T10 (preferably in BBs, possibly in CAs, but definitely not in DDs) and yet T10 gameplay sucks.

If you want reform, you need to reduce firepower/increase defensive power, and produce lots and lots of new maps. 

 

I think this has to be most accurate post in a while on this. There is not one thing I disagree with. Kudos

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
365
[WOLF5]
Members
1,330 posts
7,332 battles
13 minutes ago, EpicFlails said:

Forgive me for not putting it in quotes. I was simply repeating something Wargaming itself said. You can also say that while the torpedo hit rate was low it was still an effective deterrent against movement.  Lets not let this de-evolve into grasping at the stats straw man.

A.) That is also fallacious. There was no performance metric showing it was an "effective deterrent", unless you mean in the subjective sense.

B.) Your failure to properly structure your post as well as articulate properly and me basing my response purely on *what you wrote* is not a Straw Man. Please try again.

Edited by zarth12
  • Boring 1
  • Bad 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
472
[-BRS-]
Members
1,765 posts
14,231 battles

Yep up at T10 battleships are way overpowered and way too accurate everything hides from them and they can kill you at 20K plus

 If your cruiser find a rock to hide behind (and that's why WG create radar that goes through islands)

 If your destroyer work the far extremities of detection ranges or find a rock to hide behind

  And let's all wait for the battleships to kill off the radar cruisers and then we can all finally play the game if you're sitting still you die

 

 

  • Boring 2
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
855 posts
3,733 battles

I feel like the only reason t8-t10 gameplay is slower paced is because all the ships at those levels deal massive damage and can delete you alot quicker. Not to mention most of the players at those levels are more experienced players, with guns that fire alot faster. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
255
[TMS]
Members
1,823 posts
22,719 battles
29 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

I switched to T7 as well, games just much more fun.

T10 problem is that firepower scales faster than defensive power. That means any ship in T10 that pushes up is dead within a minute, either dev struck or burnt. That in turn means no one wants to push up and you can't lead a push because you'll be dead.

The presence of high ROF ships like Mino, Worc, and now the new IJN DDs further degrades gameplay -- there is nothing fun about being hosed by a stream of fire that cannot be ameliorated or stopped, except by hiding.  

The addition of radar means that DD play has become stale and repetitive, adding to the staleness and forcing DD drivers out of the normal role of spotting, capping, and controlling the gameflow.

There is not a single T10 map that offers flowing gameplay with small islands to hide behind that enable players to move up. Maps like Sea of Fortune and Loop force players to choose between camping beyond the islands or entering them to die early. Those choices are terrible.

The sadness is twofold: WG wants everyone in T10 (preferably in BBs, possibly in CAs, but definitely not in DDs) and yet T10 gameplay sucks.

If you want reform, you need to reduce firepower/increase defensive power, and produce lots and lots of new maps. 

I played some T6 and T7 battles yesterday, much more flowing gameplay.

Edited by Final8ty
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,042 posts
1,915 battles
Just now, Slumlord_Cheeto said:

I feel like the only reason t8-t10 gameplay is slower paced is because all the ships at those levels deal massive damage and can delete you alot quicker. Not to mention most of the players at those levels are more experienced players, with guns that fire alot faster. 

 

 

 

 

In particular, super HE-spammer Cruisers like Worchester, Cleveland, Chapeyev, and other, and super AP + HE spammers DDs like Harugumo, Akizuki, Kitakaze, most VMF DDs, and the like, are super overpowered and need to be looked at. In particular, IFHE makes the Akizuki line AMAZINGLY OP, and IFHE turns Worchester into something nearly as OP as Belfast and Kutuzov in it's own way. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
1,643 posts
5,685 battles
22 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

I switched to T7 as well, games just much more fun.

T10 problem is that firepower scales faster than defensive power. That means any ship in T10 that pushes up is dead within a minute, either dev struck or burnt. That in turn means no one wants to push up and you can't lead a push because you'll be dead.

The presence of high ROF ships like Mino, Worc, and now the new IJN DDs further degrades gameplay -- there is nothing fun about being hosed by a stream of fire that cannot be ameliorated or stopped, except by hiding.  

The addition of radar means that DD play has become stale and repetitive, adding to the staleness and forcing DD drivers out of the normal role of spotting, capping, and controlling the gameflow.

There is not a single T10 map that offers flowing gameplay with small islands to hide behind that enable players to move up. Maps like Sea of Fortune and Loop force players to choose between camping beyond the islands or entering them to die early. Those choices are terrible.

The sadness is twofold: WG wants everyone in T10 (preferably in BBs, possibly in CAs, but definitely not in DDs) and yet T10 gameplay sucks.

If you want reform, you need to reduce firepower/increase defensive power, and produce lots and lots of new maps. 

While I may normally disagree with you, this is something I've told others who scoffed at me but don't seem to get it.

The firepower outpaces the defense far too much. Irionically in this regard, CVs only get tougher, their firepower doesn't increase all that much in comparison to the straight jumps ships get. If you want to actually fix t10, you would literally have to rework the entire damage system and or hard nerf literally everything in some form or another. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
769
[POD]
Beta Testers
3,058 posts
4,741 battles

and people wonder why i hardly play my tier8 ships and my 2 tier9 ships.the slow pace,long range squat sniping and one hit ko salvos must be pretty fun.

but at the same time,the only reason i want alaska is to get a good looking ship and a nice credit farmer. sorry roma,your budweiser beer hat camo is a big NO for me,i have standards,you know.

-b-but you could just buy the camo and hide it

then i wasted money for a camo that i don't want to see.

Edited by Cruxdei
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
284
[SDIWO]
Members
1,076 posts
5,719 battles
29 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

I switched to T7 as well, games just much more fun.

T10 problem is that firepower scales faster than defensive power. That means any ship in T10 that pushes up is dead within a minute, either dev struck or burnt. That in turn means no one wants to push up and you can't lead a push because you'll be dead.

The presence of high ROF ships like Mino, Worc, and now the new IJN DDs further degrades gameplay -- there is nothing fun about being hosed by a stream of fire that cannot be ameliorated or stopped, except by hiding.  

The addition of radar means that DD play has become stale and repetitive, adding to the staleness and forcing DD drivers out of the normal role of spotting, capping, and controlling the gameflow.

There is not a single T10 map that offers flowing gameplay with small islands to hide behind that enable players to move up. Maps like Sea of Fortune and Loop force players to choose between camping beyond the islands or entering them to die early. Those choices are terrible.

The sadness is twofold: WG wants everyone in T10 (preferably in BBs, possibly in CAs, but definitely not in DDs) and yet T10 gameplay sucks.

If you want reform, you need to reduce firepower/increase defensive power, and produce lots and lots of new maps. 

I hadn't really played T7 in awhile but when the pirates were at that tier this weekend was my most enjoyable time over the weekend. Good points all over the board here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,179
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
16,906 posts
15,356 battles
46 minutes ago, Prothall said:

It's been said over and over.

You can't turn sheep into wolves.

Some people will always hide no matter how advantageous it is to brawl.

Check this Alabama out, giving my Enterprise an escort! :Smile_honoring:

 

G00dnw9.jpg

  • Cool 2
  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
365
[WOLF5]
Members
1,330 posts
7,332 battles
19 minutes ago, legoboy0401 said:

 

 

In particular, super HE-spammer Cruisers like Worchester, Cleveland, Chapeyev, and other, and super AP + HE spammers DDs like Harugumo, Akizuki, Kitakaze, most VMF DDs, and the like, are super overpowered and need to be looked at. In particular, IFHE makes the Akizuki line AMAZINGLY OP, and IFHE turns Worchester into something nearly as OP as Belfast and Kutuzov in it's own way. 

and yet the data says the opposite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
454 posts
7,982 battles
31 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

A.) That is also fallacious. There was no performance metric showing it was an "effective deterrent", unless you mean in the subjective sense.

B.) Your failure to properly structure your post as well as articulate properly and me basing my response purely on *what you wrote* is not a Straw Man. Please try again.

 

6 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

and yet the data says the opposite.

 

There's always that one... <insert meme>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,042 posts
1,915 battles
Just now, zarth12 said:

and yet the data says the opposite.

Well, maybe they aren't OP, but one could certainly be forgiven for thinking them to be OP, am I right?

 

In particular, the number of insane Worchester games, even with as short of a period of her being widely available(general release, not ST or CC), could fill a library.

 

But SlumLord was making a point that firepower at tier X is much more advanced than defense, and I think it's as plain as day that his words ring true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
365
[WOLF5]
Members
1,330 posts
7,332 battles
Just now, legoboy0401 said:

Well, maybe they aren't OP, but one could certainly be forgiven for thinking them to be OP, am I right?

 

In particular, the number of insane Worchester games, even with as short of a period of her being widely available(general release, not ST or CC), could fill a library.

 

But SlumLord was making a point that firepower at tier X is much more advanced than defense, and I think it's as plain as day that his words ring true.

A.) Worcester's performance aren't really showing all that overpowered.

B.) There is the problem because it doesn't ring true equivocally. The imbalance is there just not in the broad stroke it was claimed. BBs "firepower" is overpowered compared to how much "defense" they have due to a combination of extremes+reliability in combination with the aforementioned attributes that cause the deviation. DDs are the opposite, which cause said broad stroke to NOT ring true. Their firepower is neither extreme , but it is also the least reliable, and they are attributed with the lowest "defense".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
972
[SBS]
Members
2,833 posts
2,379 battles
Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Check this Alabama out, giving my Enterprise an escort!

Nah, he's smarter than the average BB player.  If you're in a CV match and you want to hide and snipe there's no safer place than wearing the friendly CV like underwear.  The dude is a genius. :Smile-_tongue:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
855 posts
3,733 battles
2 minutes ago, legoboy0401 said:

Well, maybe they aren't OP, but one could certainly be forgiven for thinking them to be OP, am I right?

 

In particular, the number of insane Worchester games, even with as short of a period of her being widely available(general release, not ST or CC), could fill a library.

 

But SlumLord was making a point that firepower at tier X is much more advanced than defense, and I think it's as plain as day that his words ring true.

I personally don't mind t10 matches, they can be annoying due to snowball but so can every other tier. When I get into my GC I have plenty of games where the other flank just gets whipped, and even though I'm in my OP mega BB when that happens, nothing I can do. 

 

I have played 10 matches in the Worcester, all without IFHE and it was very underwhelming. I have both Worcester and Minotaur and feel like I like Worcester better due to the fact that you can shoot with her outside of cover and not get instant deleted as you would in the mino. 

I just finished training a cap that has IFHE for my worchester today so I plan to take her out tonight and try her with it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
1,227 posts
8,640 battles

Wargaming followed the model for WoT and this is what we got.

T9 and T10 should have minor firepower upgrades with the power curve flattening. Instead of doomsday guns you should get a minor improvement in firepower but a big jump in health, consumables and defensive armor. Make the ship improvements  beyond T8 focus more on player skill to take advantage of and not just flat point and obliterate. 

T7 is 10x as fun as T10. 

 

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×