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T10 Balance and the Issues Presented

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Before we get started here, let me preface this by saying that this post is trying to be constructive, and to come to come to some sort of an agreement between the crowd that thinks balance is fine, and the crowd that thinks it is not.  Try to be constructive in the comments below please.

Wall of text incoming. 

 

World of Warships is a game based on wins, and wins alone.  Sure, those large damage numbers, XP numbers, frags per battle are nice to have, but at the end of the day, most people play to win the game.  Currently, out of the top 5 T10 ships by winrate, 3 of them are DDs.  The other two are the Worcester and the Salem.  The Worcester has only been released for 2 months, so I'd venture to guess your average joe player has not attained it yet, and it's still in the hands of the good to great players.  The Salem has a total of 4k battles played in it.  The 3 DDs that are at the top are the YueYang leading the way, followed by the Khabarovsk and the Z-52, in first, third and fifth place respectively.  Do I think that DDs having high winrates is an issue?  Not at all, just in the same way I don't think BBs having high damage numbers is an issue.

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This leads to the question, why does a class, that does the lowest damage on average by a significant margin, have such consistently high winrates?  It's due to the fact that damage isn't the sole contribution to a win a ship can give.  Nothing in this game, no other class or individual ship, can bring as much to the team as a DD can.  A DD has massive versatility, due to its combination of concealment and maneuverability.  A DD can spot and cap, two things that directly contribute to winning, in both Clan Battles and Random battles.  A DD can relocate quickly to wherever it's needed.  Most carry smoke which has a versatility to it that is not normally touched in randoms, but can be abused with good teams in CB.  There isn't much that can counter 2-3 Zaos sitting in smoke with a Moskva radar backing it up.  This is due to the concealment system as a whole, and my second point.  

The team that has better vision on the enemy will win a vast majority of their games.  This is true in randoms, CB, Ranked, and any other game mode WG plans on introducing.  Having the ability to deal consistent damage, while remaining concealed is one of the most effective things a team, or individual, can do.  They are minimizing their risk, while reaping the rewards.  This cannot be done without a DD player spotting.  Nothing in WoWs, with the exception of CV aircraft, outspot a DD.  There are variances in the class, but with the exception of the Khab, most ships are close in their detection range.  This means that, again with the exception of CV aircraft, a DD will not be seen by a surface ship he cannot disengage from.  If a DD comes into contact with another DD, there are plenty of ways that he can disengage if he wants to, or can stay engaged and take the fight.  This, in the hands of a very good player, is what makes the class so hard to balance, and potentially overpowered.  

Referencing the post made by @Kombat_W0MBAT that can be found here, 

He puts forward a very logical, and sound, argument.  Myself, and many others, believe that the classes should all have differing skill floors and ceilings.  I think it's fair to say that a DD is a very high skill floor, high skill ceiling class.    In this argument, that translates to how the nature of the concealment system can be used by a very good player, to almost unfair advantages.  If a DD has the ability to hand pick its engagements, with almost 100% certainty, what can counter it?  There will always be times where a DD gets caught out by a ship coming around an island, or an unseen circumstance, but lets be honest, those are far, far less likely than most normal occurrences in game.  It may not do much damage over the course of the game, but I've established that damage is not the only thing that can win games.  Every DD also carries torpedoes, which, while not the most reliable source of damage, can do damage from stealth better than any other weapon in the game.  This is where we come into the issue with radar.  Some deem that radar is a necessary mechanic, while others deem it as something that is broken, and completely unnecessary.  

Radar is a necessary mechanic due to the very nature of the concealment system.  If nothing can stop a DD player from using or abusing his concealment to near overpowered levels, what other options do you have?  The only logical option is to remove that concealment for a short duration.  That is exactly what radar does.  The fact that radar goes through islands is arguable either way, but I believe it is a necessary mechanic as well.  This is due to the nature of the caps in game.  Most caps have some sort of an island in them, which could lead to DDs just being stationary contesting caps all game.  There would be virtually no way to dislodge them from their spots without any sort of spotting on them.  This is a double edged sword, and while I think that DDs contesting is healthy for gameplay, having them be virtually immune to spotting is an issue.  

You could argue that a DD gives up a lot in exchange for this concealment, but comparing it to the rest of the surface ships, does it give up that much?  For instance, going from the Hindenburg to the Zao, you gain about 2.5km of concealment.  In exchange for this concealment, you give up significant effective DPM, significant armor, a significant amount of health, and while you have far superior torpedoes, they aren't the most reliable tool with 9.7km detection.  You give up all of these tools for the ability to outspot exactly 2 more cruisers.  A Zao can outspot a Des Moines and another Hindenburg compared to a Hindenburg.  Most people would agree that these ships are balanced between the two, and each have situations where they shine.  So how much does a DD give up to have the ability to outspot any other non-DD class?  That's an argument in semantics that won't end.  

In this current state of the game, I think Radar is necessary.  It acts as an equalizer for concealment, even if only for a short duration.  It forces DDs, which can dictate when, and where they want to engage targets a vast majority of the time, into an inopportune engagement.  The advent of radar has just limited the effect that a great DD player can have on the outcome of a game.  Saying this, I do feel that DDs need to be properly rewarded for their contributions to a win.  I don't think spotting and capping currently give enough XP, and that's evident by DDs having the lowest average XP per battle.  I think this issue arose when WG reworked the entire XP system some time ago, and I think that DD XP definitely needs to be looked at.  

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Well a unicom CV have the most influence over a game

 Next is a destroyer and Z52, YY, and Khab are very good at killing other DD's in the right hands

 Also those aren't usually the 1st destroyers people tec  Usually a destroyer driver will get them sooner or later but not a newbie

 1st time destroyer drivers usually go up to Japanese line So usually there's more experienced drivers that are flying Z52, YY and Khabs

And we all know who wins a game after one side looses its destroyers Hence the higher WR

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Well it certainly looks like the nerfs have taken Khaba's win rate down a couple notches!

In the last 2 weeks Z-52 actually posted a 49.72% WR, so that's odd, huh?

It's almost like you used the all time data when the meta has changed monumentally for DD in the last little bit.

The ships showing high WR often tend to be played less rather than more often, present high skill requirements, and are more "niche" as far as nation or distribution. Keep that in mind too. Not quite all the no skills are grinding up YueYang in the DD only PA line just for funsies.

Gearing is a better ship than the bottom of the barrel WR she has, but it gets the snot played out of it for a DD.

For example, last 2 weeks:

Gearing 62k plays, 49.54 WR

Shima 78.9k plays 49.68 WR

YY 15k plays 52.89 WR

Kababa 14.2k plays 52.85 WR.

The amount of times the ships is played actually kinda matters. It's what keeps BB stats low too, higher plays = lower overall stats typically. 

Here is another example of this in motion:

Montana 62.9k plays 49.34 WR

GK 43k plays 50.65 WR

And Yammy breaks outta the mold with like 63k plays and a 50.55 WR!

And yes, well played DD are very nice to have on your team. Just like any well played ship!

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I would like to be constructive too, as long as T8 is in a t10 battle, there will be no true balance.

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I would say that you touch the matters by the wrong side. Since there is always the same number of DD on both side, having one in the top 5 winrate means that others DD are quite lower, and the global winrate of DD will be the same as BB and Cruiser. 

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1 hour ago, Canadatron said:

Well it certainly looks like the nerfs have taken Khaba's win rate down a couple notches!

In the last 2 weeks Z-52 actually posted a 49.72% WR, so that's odd, huh?

It's almost like you used the all time data when the meta has changed monumentally for DD in the last little bit.

The ships showing high WR often tend to be played less rather than more often, present high skill requirements, and are more "niche" as far as nation or distribution. Keep that in mind too. Not quite all the no skills are grinding up YueYang in the DD only PA line just for funsies.

Gearing is a better ship than the bottom of the barrel WR she has, but it gets the snot played out of it for a DD.

For example, last 2 weeks:

Gearing 62k plays, 49.54 WR

Shima 78.9k plays 49.68 WR

YY 15k plays 52.89 WR

Kababa 14.2k plays 52.85 WR.

The amount of times the ships is played actually kinda matters. It's what keeps BB stats low too, higher plays = lower overall stats typically. 

Here is another example of this in motion:

Montana 62.9k plays 49.34 WR

GK 43k plays 50.65 WR

And Yammy breaks outta the mold with like 63k plays and a 50.55 WR!

And yes, well played DD are very nice to have on your team. Just like any well played ship!

Yes, Sample size is VERY important.

However taken from another thread:

 

Quote

People also really need to get off the "win rate" train. It is the same as admitting you lack the required intellect to draw logical conclusions, and perform even basic data analytics.

Win rate would be indicative of individual ship balance, and even ship type balance IF and ONLY IF the following measures were in place:
- Controlled skill environment. This would be SBMM or SWAP MM. 
- The rule-set and determining factors for winning were singular and not plural. As an example if the game were either pure TDM, or Objective capping based... NOT both.
(player count reduction per match also increases this accuracy)

Without those Win rate is the MOST skewed metric available. It is worthless. It is akin to observing the behavioral patterns of 24 different species of Fish and then claiming that combining that data gives you an accurate trend for the behavioral pattern of a single species of fish....and then go on to claim you can draw logical conclusions from that trend.... It is benighted at best.
Win rate has far too many dependencies that are independent from the individual. A win is based on the actions, the reactions, the correlation from 24 individuals... yet is somehow expected to be causative for an individual's performance. Yea right... Sorry but Correlation does not equal causation.

Performance metrics are the staple factors in determining carry or lack there of, retrospectively.
I can hop in a Shima, put autopilot on to drive me right back to the edge of the map, and I can still net a win, with null performance. WG can release a T10 ship with 100 HP, no armament, and 5k detection range and there will still be players who could net wins with it, with null performance. Win rate is NOT indicative of balance. 

DDs were the lowest performing ship before Radar, after, and still are. DDs were the lowest performing ship when they could OWSF, after, and still are. DDs were the lowest performing ship with old Shima torps, after, and still are. DDs were the lowest performing ships before High velocity shell cruisers were added, after, and still are. So on and so forth

A high skill floor+ceiling archetype can still be so and be in need of buffs. A low skill floor+ceiling archetype can still be so and be in need of nerfs.
Just like competitively, an archetype which has a META rating of "F tier" can most certainly be high skill floor+ceiling, and can most certainly still get wins..even at the top echelons of rank in said competitive mode. That doesn't make them ANY less in need of buffs to make them have balanced performance, which can deviate in BOTH directions.

Edited by zarth12

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