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Soshi_Sone

Sniper Loss

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So...you like to snipe from long range in your Montana.  Play almost the entire game without a scratch as your team melts around you.

 

ns1.thumb.jpg.201e9718acf058406365454fe968f652.jpg

 

 

 

Then, when defeat is all around....then....only then do you push.

ns2.thumb.jpg.c77833fef508889447a2793f49553e47.jpg

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Yeah...BBs who do this are super annoying and it just goes to show that anyone can get to tier X. Makes me sad.

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Very unsportsmanlike conduct send in a support ticket looks like a bot to me

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If it wasn't profitable they wouldn't do it. Primary reason why BBs are overpowered and have been since 2015 is their accuracy. Path of the least resistance. Lower their accuracy OR ability to hit (like shell velocity) to create balanced levels of hit rate at long ranges, and they will move up to see the same damage numbers they see now at near max range.

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6 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

So...you like to snipe from long range in your Montana.  Play almost the entire game without a scratch as your team melts around you.

 

ns1.thumb.jpg.201e9718acf058406365454fe968f652.jpg

 

 

 

Then, when defeat is all around....then....only then do you push.

ns2.thumb.jpg.c77833fef508889447a2793f49553e47.jpg

I have seen that buffoonery so many times.  You got to fight when the sh*t is still on the line and when you got a team still.  Sitting back untouched and letting the team melt and then facing 5+ ships on your own is so consistently idiotic.  If I got a dollar every time I had seen people do this, I'd have around thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands of dollars.

 

Randoms, Ranked, Co-Op, it doesn't matter.  And it's always a dumb Battleship doing this.  In Co-op, I'm all for them doing this as they don't do any damage and I'll get all the damage and kills all for myself.  But in PVP, you can't afford this kind of sh*t, especially when it's a Top Tier Battleship doing this.

 

In my Divisions, I joke about these morons all the time:  "They're saving their HP so that they can Solo Warrior the 6 enemy ships!  Just you wait!"

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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6 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

So...you like to snipe from long range in your Montana.  Play almost the entire game without a scratch as your team melts around you.

 

ns1.thumb.jpg.201e9718acf058406365454fe968f652.jpg

 

 

 

Then, when defeat is all around....then....only then do you push.

ns2.thumb.jpg.c77833fef508889447a2793f49553e47.jpg

Look at my solo stats in the Montana.  I am a long range sniper.  It's not my fault the other players don't know how to kite and disengage.

Show the scoreboard, let's see how much he really contributed.  If he finished somewhere in the middle or bottom then yeah, he sucked.  But if he finished in the top three, then the team suicided themselves way too quickly and didn't put out any damage themselves and they are more to blame for the loss.

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I died on the D line several minutes prior.  I was playing T8 BB Bismarck.  It wasn't a yolo.  I was angled very well, and had anchored myself nicely in their side.  I had that feeling you get when you just KNOW you're in the right spot.  Well positioned in defense, and up close enough to do some good damage.  A T10 BB was with me, and we had DD and CA support.  The Reds were on the ropes at that cap...several ships on the verge of destruction.   It was a very hard fought battle and a very winnable game at that mid point.  The weight of a Montana's firepower, even at mid range...would have definitely won the cap and crushed the enemy's flank.  The game would have still been in the balance, but it wouldn't have turned into the rout it did  here.

 

Edit:  He finished second from the bottom if memory serves me.     

Edited by Soshi_Sone

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53 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

If it wasn't profitable they wouldn't do it. 

Exactly. I recently unlocked and purchased the Montana. Hearing of its "tanky" reputation I have been taking it in close, only to get deleted early in the game. I'm not sure that I've even broken even with it yet. Conversely, those who hide behind rocks at the back of the map and snipe are constantly getting Krakens, Hi Calibers and Confederates with it. Like it or not, sniping works.

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40 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

Exactly. I recently unlocked and purchased the Montana. Hearing of its "tanky" reputation I have been taking it in close, only to get deleted early in the game. I'm not sure that I've even broken even with it yet. Conversely, those who hide behind rocks at the back of the map and snipe are constantly getting Krakens, Hi Calibers and Confederates with it. Like it or not, sniping works.

Ahh but see, there is still a huge difference. "Deleted early game" means something completely else to a Montana then it does to a DD, or Cruiser. A Montana, just like any BB, is very "tanky' in game. They are attributed quantitatively with reliably the longest inbound TTK. Even when you were "taking it in close", it was taking the enemy up to 10x longer to sink you then it would a Cruiser.... then it would a DD... in the same situation. The difference here as well is as a BB, you are given the quantitative attribute of longest range, to make those scenarios play to your advantage or even avoid them completely. What exasperates how broken and overpowered BBs are, is that they get to avoid the scenario of which they are attributed survival wise, and still perform outwardly... and not even on a mediocre level but well above it. Where as DDs are attributed to have reliably the fastest incoming TTK, but not the fastest outgoing... and instead, given the least reliable as well. Additionally they are the most range limited.

Ever notice in ANY other game any archetype (Ship type in WoWs) anything similar to a Mage... or... Assassin.... you know the "Squishy" archetype... also gets to have the HIGHEST and MOST RELIABLE burst damage. Where as the Tank... the Knight....Paladin...Warrior ..etc.. the meat shield... the one with the highest EHP and Armor... has the least reliable or the most heavily limited damage in the game?  Either by how much damage they can do, or range limited and heavily choreographed (easy to dodge). That is because..that is how balance works.

The devs need to nerf BBs in the accuracy department, or effect the source... hit rate at long ranges. A large Shell velocity reduction would work too.

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Gotta love Tier IX + and its passive BBs. Richelieu does better when uptiered than Iowa does when playing in the same tier. I don't judge by the stats, I judge by performance in game. You can get better stats than me, you can get more kills than me, you can survive longer than me but in the end, I will still consider you useless if I see you huddled in a corner behind a island alone.

Edited by Vangm94
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When playing a BB, I am the idiot at the other extreme.  I mostly play DDs and CLs, so when I'm in a BB I have to force myself to hang back, since it's not what I'm used to doing.  But sooner or later I'll end up too far forward, with no good way to extricate myself.  Usually happens around the same time the rest of my team mates on my side of the map either sink or retreat.  I keep telling myself not to get too far forward, but I get caught up in the battle, and don't look at the mini map often enough.

Although every now and then it actually pays off.  I got caught last week in my Richelieu with the secondary build, and, having no options that would end in survival, I ran right up between 2 BBs at point blank range.  Since I was firing every secondary on both sides of the ship, I ended up with something like 168 secondary hits, which was enough to finish one of them, and heavily damage the other.  They were busy running and dodging, apparently thinking I was trying to ram, which let me survive longer than I would have.

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31 minutes ago, zubalkabir said:

When playing a BB, I am the idiot at the other extreme.  I mostly play DDs and CLs, so when I'm in a BB I have to force myself to hang back, since it's not what I'm used to doing.  But sooner or later I'll end up too far forward, with no good way to extricate myself.  Usually happens around the same time the rest of my team mates on my side of the map either sink or retreat.  I keep telling myself not to get too far forward, but I get caught up in the battle, and don't look at the mini map often enough.

Although every now and then it actually pays off.  I got caught last week in my Richelieu with the secondary build, and, having no options that would end in survival, I ran right up between 2 BBs at point blank range.  Since I was firing every secondary on both sides of the ship, I ended up with something like 168 secondary hits, which was enough to finish one of them, and heavily damage the other.  They were busy running and dodging, apparently thinking I was trying to ram, which let me survive longer than I would have.

And see that same situation in a DD instead of being in that Richelieu, the DD dies in mere seconds. The same situation in a Cruiser instead of that Richelieu and the Cruiser dies in seconds. The DD does not get the option of "why don't I just park in the back, I can still contribute to the match back here", DDs aren't even able to perform in a high risk environment as well as BBs are able to in a No-risk environment (all the way in the back)

Balance.. broken.

Edited by zarth12

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1 hour ago, zarth12 said:

And see that same situation in a DD instead of being in that Richelieu, the DD dies in mere seconds. The same situation in a Cruiser instead of that Richelieu and the Cruiser dies in seconds. The DD does not get the option of "why don't I just park in the back, I can still contribute to the match back here", DDs aren't even able to perform in a high risk environment as well as BBs are able to in a No-risk environment (all the way in the back)

Balance.. broken.

Oh, definitely.  Once a DD is spotted, that first salvo or two usually takes out the engine.   Then you repair it, and the next salvo takes it out again, at which point you are essentially dead, since your smoke doesn't work against radar.  Although I've got to say, I'm starting to have better games in DDs lately.  I think it's a combination of adapting to heavy radar games (not charging straight into caps at the beginning of the game, and doing recon to see if I can actually get in and still be at least 9 km away from the nearest likely radar sheltering island), and the radar cruiser frenzy has started to die down a bit.  It's usually no more than 2-4 radar cruisers per side, as opposed to the 5-6 we were seeing right after the U.S. cruiser split.

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9 minutes ago, zubalkabir said:

Oh, definitely.  Once a DD is spotted, that first salvo or two usually takes out the engine.   Then you repair it, and the next salvo takes it out again, at which point you are essentially dead, since your smoke doesn't work against radar.  Although I've got to say, I'm starting to have better games in DDs lately.  I think it's a combination of adapting to heavy radar games (not charging straight into caps at the beginning of the game, and doing recon to see if I can actually get in and still be at least 9 km away from the nearest likely radar sheltering island), and the radar cruiser frenzy has started to die down a bit.  It's usually no more than 2-4 radar cruisers per side, as opposed to the 5-6 we were seeing right after the U.S. cruiser split.

The difference is, in a Radar-less environment DDs still perform the lowest. To "adapt" to the Radar environment, you have to play in a way that makes you even less impactful on the match. Even in both environments, most of your performance and therefore impact as a DD is against other DDs, especially at high tiers. Where-as the other ships do not have a hard counter against them like radar, were never the lowest performer, can be impactful at a consistent rate, and output positive performance against all ship types... and mostly with far less risk.

Edited by zarth12

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I'm reading the OP's comments and looking at the mini map and having trouble putting the two together. Perhaps the mini map capture only shows the Montana after he started to move??

Next point - the red team is tightly clustered on the cap, but the green team appears scattered. Conclusion: the last guy alive is obviously the one who caused lost the game rather than the green team just getting outplayed. / sarcasm

Question: when did the Montana become a brawler? Most die too quick in T10 matches I've been in because they think they have german secondaries.

I'm not defending passive BB play. For all I know this is one of those low forty percent players who free XP'd to T10 and makes me want to tear out my monitor, drive to their house and throw it through their front window.

And 100000% agreement for high tier BB's getting an accuracy nerf across the board. This is needed badly, but unlikely to happen because WG want's faster matches.

 

Edited by Scotty_SE
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If only there were carrier airplanes that could deliver a torpedo or dive bomv payload to stationary BBs hiding in the back....

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man i hate that map. no matter in randoms  most CL's and BBs want to head to the islands . dd will try and cap but wont get support becuase the isles block those same ships. . So if your in a BB and not island humping youll just get singled out.  I can never play right no matter which side i spawn on . 

Edited by EyE_dYe_QuIck

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3 hours ago, VGLance said:

Show the scoreboard, let's see how much he really contributed.  If he finished somewhere in the middle or bottom then yeah, he sucked.  But if he finished in the top three, then the team suicided themselves way too quickly and didn't put out any damage themselves and they are more to blame for the loss.

So if he did well hes a Unicum & the other 11 are potatoes & if he did poorly hes a potato & the rest of the team should have carried him?  Isnt that interesting...

There is no doubt the meta in T8+ is "Mexican standoff". Each waiting for the other to blink & the dominoes start falling but does that make it right? There are those that will espouse the end justifies the means. Truth be told in many respects I agree with that sentiment, however it doesnt intrude into my recreation. Adam as much as it chaps you when people say it, this is JUST A GAME.

I will no doubt mine salt by the truckload with the following comment.

The problem with T8+ gameplay is a direct consequence of "unicum" players.

Think about it; what created this sniping meta we find ourselves in? The fact that BBs can reach across the map? No, relative to the size of the map lower tier BBs can largely reach across them as well. The fact that CA are flame throwers in high tiers pushing BBs back? No CAs in lower tiers set plenty of fires & is on track with T10 vis a vis HP pools. The torp soup & stealth torping of T10 DDs? Not really, there are plenty of torps in lowers tiers too. 
I submit to you dear friends that what has changed is the players. By the time the players have the time & effort invested to reach top tier & with tools such as Stats & Numbers/WoWstats a percentage of the population decided that being the "best" is more important than anything else & develop strategies to improve their numbers regardless of the consequences to gameplay.
Low & behold hill humpers & snipers are born. 

I wont say its right or wrong, it just is what it is. This is just a game & everyone is entitled to play it the way they find enjoyable. I will say snipers benefit from timid gameplay, dont let them have it. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, MizzenMast said:

So if he did well hes a Unicum & the other 11 are potatoes & if he did poorly hes a potato & the rest of the team should have carried him?  Isnt that interesting...

Can you please explain how you went off the rails and twisted what I said to that much of a degree?

Could your inability to comprehend and put organization to your thoughts also have something to do with your performance history?

I mean seriously.  If I was a 48% win rate player (and I was when I first started playing), I would empty my mind of any perceptions and thoughts of what I think I know and soak up like a sponge the perception and thoughts of those who manage 60+ % win rates and mirror them.

But I dunno, maybe that's too common sense of a concept to grasp for some 48% win rate players.

You fall into the same trap as other below and average players.  You contradict yourself by saying that unicums focus on boosting their stats regardless of how much it hurts the team (winning).  But win rate is the number one stat they all care about above all else and their win rate is light years higher than yours.  How long does it need to take for you to realize how bad you sound when you contradict yourself like that?  The strategies you attack and say are bad are the very things that are producing wins far above the tactics you apply.  Why can't you see that?  What is broken in your mind that you can't see that?

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4 minutes ago, VGLance said:

Could your inability to comprehend and put organization to your thoughts also have something to do with your performance history?

You know Adam, pretty much any post you make that you disagree with someone you accuse them of having a substandard intellect. Ironically enough, those most likely to do such are of a substandard intellect themselves. In the extremely unlikely event you had a higher IQ than my own I would shake your hand for the accomplishment. However I would venture that in marrying up & being good at WoWs you have peaked in life. 

11 minutes ago, VGLance said:

I mean seriously.  If I was a 48% win rate player (and I was when I first started playing), I would empty my mind of any perceptions and thoughts of what I think I know and soak up like a sponge the perception and thoughts of those who manage 60+ % win rates and mirror them.

And here you illustrate for me the root of the problem.

Assume an average of 1 guy in 24 in a match who is a unicum player & does well in the match. The other 23 see him & say "wow, hanging back sniping/hill humping works well, I am going to try that" which brings us back to the OP. Potato being a waste of a ship & the current sniper/passive playstyle 

25 minutes ago, VGLance said:

You fall into the same trap as other below and average players.  You contradict yourself by saying that unicums focus on boosting their stats regardless of how much it hurts the team (winning).  But win rate is the number one stat they all care about above all else and their win rate is light years higher than yours.  How long does it need to take for you to realize how bad you sound when you contradict yourself like that?  The strategies you attack and say are bad are the very things that are producing wins far above the tactics you apply.  Why can't you see that?  What is broken in your mind that you can't see that?

I know it was a LONG time ago but try to recall the post I quoted. By your own word in regards to the OP if the Montana was in a top position it was the teams fault for not pulling their weight. Surely even one who peaked young in life can grasp those nearly 100k of HP the Montana is carrying serve a purpose? His hanging back reduced the number of "good" targets to 11& took 100,000 HP off the table for tanking. That my rather slow good sir is NOT contributing to a win. That is playing the mini game & hoping but not really caring if the rest of the team can pull their weight. Cant you grasp the intellectual dishonestly of "if we win its because of me/if we lost its because of them"?

I have no doubt you have replays where you can say "see, I sniped & we won". Likewise I have replays showing our BBs pushing from the start & we steam rolled the reds. 

As I said in my OP..

46 minutes ago, MizzenMast said:

I wont say its right or wrong, it just is what it is. This is just a game & everyone is entitled to play it the way they find enjoyable.

 

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5 hours ago, Vangm94 said:

Gotta love Tier IX + and its passive BBs. Richelieu does better when uptiered than Iowa does when playing in the same tier. I don't judge by the stats, I judge by performance in game. You can get better stats than me, you can get more kills than me, you can survive longer than me but in the end, I will still consider you useless if I see you huddled in a corner behind a island alone.

It happens all over the tiers.

 

Magnificent Fuso being wasted as she tries to snipe at 19km.

I lost track how many times I've watched Bismarck, North Carolina, Tirpitz trying to snipe at 19km.

 

Garbage is found all over the place.

1 hour ago, EyE_dYe_QuIck said:

man i hate that map. no matter in randoms  most CL's and BBs want to head to the islands . dd will try and cap but wont get support becuase the isles block those same ships. . So if your in a BB and not island humping youll just get singled out.  I can never play right no matter which side i spawn on . 

The middle area of that map is garbage.  It brings out the worst in high tier, but not as bad as Okinawa and Islands of Ice.  A BB or Cruiser trying to stay in the middle to support the DD cap attempts often find themselves getting focus fired with no cover nearby.  A Radar Cruiser trying to back up the DD cap attempt in the middle at the start, if it doesn't get DD smoke support, will die quickly, EARLY.  Really, I'd like to help my DDs in the middle with my Des Moines, but if I'm solo-queued, I never get DD smoke to let me get closer safely.  Majority of Random DDs won't smoke up to let a friendly Radar Cruiser back them up, so I learned early on, "The DDs are on their own" in the middle of the map, at least at the start.

 

High Tier maps are just straight garbage.  The mid and lower tier maps are much better, more dynamic.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It happens all over the tiers.

 

Magnificent Fuso being wasted as she tries to snipe at 19km.

I lost track how many times I've watched Bismarck, North Carolina, Tirpitz trying to snipe at 19km.

 

Garbage is found all over the place.

You aint seen nuthin' until you've seen a Scharnhorst sniping at Red BBs at extreme range with AP. :Smile_facepalm: I've seen this several times.

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19 minutes ago, MizzenMast said:

And here you illustrate for me the root of the problem.

Assume an average of 1 guy in 24 in a match who is a unicum player & does well in the match. The other 23 see him & say "wow, hanging back sniping/hill humping works well, I am going to try that" which brings us back to the OP. Potato being a waste of a ship & the current sniper/passive playstyle

If that's the case, they are not MIRRORING them.  Mirror means what it means.  If you suck at sniping from long range, then that's not the fault of the unicum player now is it.  You're not replicating what they do unless you're putting out the same damage.

And you guys always like to blame the top guys on the leaderboard doing 100k plus damage simply because they were afloat longer than you but you guys never attack with proper proportion the afk ship that did zero damage.  And the bottom 5 players on the team who might as well been afk because they did less than 20k damage on their way to dying before 5 minutes.

As far as the personal attacks, you can fire blanks behind the safety blanket of anonymity all you want with your claims of a superior intellect, but the beautiful thing about performance metrics is that they reveal who suffers from Dunning-Kruger.

Any time you finish first on the leaderboard it doesn't mean you had a flawless game.  There are always countless microdecisions that could have been better.  But as long as folks keep putting the majority of the focus on the top performing players in the battle over the ones that carried a fraction of their weight, they will be called on it.

When you learn to punch above your weight and carry teams on a consistent basis, your perception will change.  Because you'll be at the top of the leaderboard and have folks like your current self blaming you for the loss and you'll equally want to give them a verbal spanking for not putting the majority of the blame where it belongs.

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5 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

You aint seen nuthin' until you've seen a Scharnhorst sniping at Red BBs at extreme range with AP. :Smile_facepalm: I've seen this several times.

Not a sniping BB, but this is just as bad.  You know things are great when a DD is trying to get Cleveland and a BB to spot for him, because his DD was an "attack boat."

 

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