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Thornir

Your DD torp problem...

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...is a non-problem.

Before your underwear twists your gonads, let me explain.

The main battery for hybrid and torp type DDs is torpedoes.

This main battery has a server-wide hit rate of about 7%. Let's assume at T8 and above, the reload takes 90 seconds. For some ships it's more for others it's less, but let's also assume there are 10 torps.

In a 20 minute match, if you could fire immediately after reload, you could fire 13 times; 130 torps in the water. That's a lot, but it's also unrealistic. let's assume you could fire 65 aimed torpedoes in a match.

7% of 65 is 4.55 hits. Per game. Let's also assume an average damage of 12k per torp. that's 54,600, per game. There are exactly three DDs with an average higher than this - and that includes damage from all sources. All but 3 BBs average higher than this. Ten different Cruisers average higher than this. So, 54K damage is a very generous number.

Does that still seem high to you? Consider: The highest possible emblem for DD average damage is 64k. This is the same amount of damage as the LOWEST emblem for BB players, and half again less than that for Cruisers.

Oh, and this: WR? 71% of all T-8 to T-10 BBs have a WR above 50%. 79% for Cruisers, 66% for DDs. 

But FLOODING! you say? 100% heal-able. and only one, no matter how many torps land. Unlike fire. So, yes, you get credit for it, when you do it, but unless you flood a target out, they can get it allll back, next time their healing potion comes off cooldown.

DDs are SITUATIONALLY able to do damage, yes. And torp walls are OCCASIONALLY a thing. But day in and day out, 7% of those torps hit. Can you imagine playing a CA or a BB with a 7% main battery hit rate with a 90 second reload and a "time of flight" measured in MINUTES?? My gawd, there'd be a riot.

If you're going to say, "DDs have a different mission. They aren't SUPPOSED to be damage dealers", I wouldn't argue. They are SUPPOSED to have a different mission. But the measuring sticks for DDs are the same ones developed for the damage dealers. And they are based on damage and kills. At the risk of inviting the apoplectic-isms to return, I'll add here that the radar meta denies far more objective-securing opportunities than were available before the USN CA split; Defeating smoke is becoming a real skill for many BB and CA captains, and damage on spotting provides a laughable amount of XP.

The few DD drivers that succeed do so because they find ways to win that are not available to the average DD driver. And if you're thinking that the high skill ceiling is tough but that's not your problem, try having a little empathy and thinking about how you'd feel if your preferred class was the one that was too hard to successfully play. 

The problem I believe people have with torps, despite all the horror stories about "walls of skill" and "spammed torps", is that they come out of nowhere, and when a lot get fired at once they are hard to dodge. Those that have played WoT know the apoplectic nature of discussions about arty, for this same reason. You personally may have had games where you did get deleted by torps. But if you're honest you'll admit it just isn't that often compared to how often you get deleted by gunfire. 

So if you really think torps are "a" problem or "the" problem with DDs, please advise what your game balancing solution is. 

You've seen the graphs in the radar thread. You know where DDs fall in the overall scheme for stats. DDs have to do damage too, bottom line. And more often than not, that means torps. 

7% of them, anyway.

Thanks for reading.

<If you're planning on responding negatively, please do us both a favor and self identify if you have either limited experience in DDs, are a unicum that doesn't seem to have a problem with anything, have hidden your stats, or any combination of these. It will save time for us all later. Thanks>

 

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19 minutes ago, Thornir said:

...is a non-problem.

Before your underwear twists your gonads, let me explain.

The main battery for hybrid and torp type DDs is torpedoes.

This main battery has a server-wide hit rate of about 7%. Let's assume at T8 and above, the reload takes 90 seconds. For some ships it's more for others it's less, but let's also assume there are 10 torps.

In a 20 minute match, if you could fire immediately after reload, you could fire 13 times; 130 torps in the water. That's a lot, but it's also unrealistic. let's assume you could fire 65 aimed torpedoes in a match.

7% of 65 is 4.55 hits. Per game. Let's also assume an average damage of 12k per torp. that's 54,600, per game. There are exactly three DDs with an average higher than this - and that includes damage from all sources. All but 3 BBs average higher than this. Ten different Cruisers average higher than this. So, 54K damage is a very generous number.

Does that still seem high to you? Consider: The highest possible emblem for DD average damage is 64k. This is the same amount of damage as the LOWEST emblem for BB players, and half again less than that for Cruisers.

Oh, and this: WR? 71% of all T-8 to T-10 BBs have a WR above 50%. 79% for Cruisers, 66% for DDs. 

But FLOODING! you say? 100% heal-able. and only one, no matter how many torps land. Unlike fire. So, yes, you get credit for it, when you do it, but unless you flood a target out, they can get it allll back, next time their healing potion comes off cooldown.

DDs are SITUATIONALLY able to do damage, yes. And torp walls are OCCASIONALLY a thing. But day in and day out, 7% of those torps hit. Can you imagine playing a CA or a BB with a 7% main battery hit rate with a 90 second reload and a "time of flight" measured in MINUTES?? My gawd, there'd be a riot.

If you're going to say, "DDs have a different mission. They aren't SUPPOSED to be damage dealers", I wouldn't argue. They are SUPPOSED to have a different mission. But the measuring sticks for DDs are the same ones developed for the damage dealers. And they are based on damage and kills. At the risk of inviting the apoplectic-isms to return, I'll add here that the radar meta denies far more objective-securing opportunities than were available before the USN CA split; Defeating smoke is becoming a real skill for many BB and CA captains, and damage on spotting provides a laughable amount of XP.

The few DD drivers that succeed do so because they find ways to win that are not available to the average DD driver. And if you're thinking that the high skill ceiling is tough but that's not your problem, try having a little empathy and thinking about how you'd feel if your preferred class was the one that was too hard to successfully play. 

The problem I believe people have with torps, despite all the horror stories about "walls of skill" and "spammed torps", is that they come out of nowhere, and when a lot get fired at once they are hard to dodge. Those that have played WoT know the apoplectic nature of discussions about arty, for this same reason. You personally may have had games where you did get deleted by torps. But if you're honest you'll admit it just isn't that often compared to how often you get deleted by gunfire. 

So if you really think torps are "a" problem or "the" problem with DDs, please advise what your game balancing solution is. 

You've seen the graphs in the radar thread. You know where DDs fall in the overall scheme for stats. DDs have to do damage too, bottom line. And more often than not, that means torps. 

7% of them, anyway.

Thanks for reading.

<If you're planning on responding negatively, please do us both a favor and self identify if you have either limited experience in DDs, are a unicum that doesn't seem to have a problem with anything, have hidden your stats, or any combination of these. It will save time for us all later. Thanks>

 

Truth in advertising. DDs really don't get rewarded enough for the jobs that they excel at that Cruisers and Battleships don't.

 

In other words, they are expected to glean XP and credits the same way Cruisers and Battleships do.

 

This wouldn't be a problem if A:, the jobs that DDs excel at weren't necessary/important to the vast majority of wins,(the reasoning being that if something isn't super important to the outcome of a match, it shouldn't be rewarded very heavily) and were instead  kind of a side thing that has little to no bearing on the outcome of the match,(the former, THEY ARE, and the latter, THEY AREN'T) and B:, if DDs were as good at farming damage for XP and credits as Cruisers and BBs typically are.(Hint: THEY AREN'T)

 

This is utterly ridiculous. Cruisers and Battleships are REWARDED PRIMARILY FOR DOING WHAT THEY ARE BEST AT, but Destroyers and(to a lesser extent) Aircraft Carriers are REWARDED PRIMARILY FOR DOING WHAT THEY ARE WORST AT.

 

 

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<If you're planning on responding negatively, please do us both a favor and self identify if you have either limited experience in DDs, are a unicum that doesn't seem to have a problem with anything, have hidden your stats, or any combination of these. It will save time for us all later. Thanks> 

 

ahaha I love it...

 

My 2 cents on this though? My mains being mostly BB and DD. (I know! its like being both Republican AND democrat at the same time!). While your stats are certainly presented in a way that favors your arguments. I do need to point out the facts you have completely ignored, but which need to be addressed if you are to make a fair argument.

If there is only 1 DD in a match, I never have many problems with the torps. THey are in essence, well balanced.. It's when you have 4+ DD's in a match, especially at high tier that things start getting insanely lopsided and broken. Especially when 2 of them have the torpedo reload skill, and the 3rd of the 4 have deep water torpedoes.... "Torp spam walls" become a very real thing at higher tiers, especially when you have 3 DD's all sailing together spamming them down corridors and 80 degree angles of each other.. its like being manual dropped by an unseen torpedo squadron of planes cross dropping torps on you, except you have no way of knowing its coming.

Another big point to make is that BB 7% Hit rate comment is really useless in the argument. Battleships don't spam blind shots willy nilly like DD's tend to shoot spread after spread of blind torpedoes down choke points, and alley ways, and this is a huge factor in hit %. If DD players ONLY shot torps at proper times, and never blind fired, you'd see those hit %s become much much higher. You also ignored the how many low tier players play DD's and spam the mother loving frack otu of torpedoes because they haven't learned yet the torps have a max range.

This being said... you also ignored the point that torpedoes do insane amounts of damage. This potential incoming damage will nearly always force a ship to turn. Even if the torpedo spread misses entirely, it can still get numerous ships killed, and completely turn a fight.. I've seen many times where a wiffed failed torpedo spread that hit nothing, forced multiple ships to turn broad side and get annihilated. It's not always about the damage.

----------------------

 

My honest opinion about DD's? They are OP, but they need to be, because for some reason Wargaming decided to spam the mother loving frack out of this game with Sonar and Radar...

If wargaming made Sonar and Radar not ignore hard terrain, and work a bit more realistically, or Potentially be able to be knocked out or destroyed, and or just limit the amount of ships that can mount them, then in turn limit the number of max DD's available in a game to 3 tops.. We'd see the "torpedo problem" mentality go away.

The torpedo spams would be something you could manage, and deal with but not be so much of a nightmare that BB's are unable to push forward with the 100% chance they are going to get absolutely demolished by APHE HE shells from cruisers shooting 90000 shots a second, and run the risk of getting sidelined by 3 walls of torpedoes from unseen enemies at any potential second. It would open up cruisers to be able to support the DD's and BB's both becoming the wild card support ship they honestly should be. Lowering the Radar/Sonar and making htem less OP would allow DD's to do their job without having to be OP at the same time to counter the hard counters, and BB's could do what they were supposed to do, and be the spearhead in front tanking damage, and finishing off ships.

 

 

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DD's do need to be rewarded more for scouting and they do have a high skill floor. However, they don't have the cliff like learning curve that CV's do and average and even somewhat less than average players are able to do good if not great with them.

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5 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

The only people who forsake the goDD's are the nooBB's...

 

Torpedo balance is a non-issue.

I'm a DD and BB main, what does that make me?

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1 minute ago, Lady_Athena said:

I'm a DD and BB main, what does that make me?

Very confused as to what the definition of "main" is....

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<If you're planning on responding negatively, please do us both a favor and self identify if you have either limited experience in DDs, are a unicum that doesn't seem to have a problem with anything, have hidden your stats, or any combination of these. It will save time for us all later. Thanks> 

:Smile_teethhappy:

....Well this thread won't go for long then....

 

Have a +1 for a post based on stats rather than emotion.

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3 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Very confused as to what the definition of "main" is....

When you main something in a game, its what you're most proficient at, and or what you master in, and focus all your time on. Most of the time its just 1 role, but some people can main multiple things. Either way, tit for tat.

 

DD's are extremely easy to be OP with. Doesn't take much skill just some common sense, and situational awareness which I do understand is quite rare, and difficult for the masses apparently. 

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That is why, even if Radar was removed completely. DDs would still logically require buffs to their performance, and not performance against other DDs which is already too strong internally.. As the lowest performing ship type before radar, and after, and proof that "Torpedo soup" is nothing more than hyperbole given the hit rates at that time even... it comes down to the issues with the devs. They chose, at a time shortly after launch, to do a 180 and balance the game SUBJECTIVELY rather than OBJECTIVELY. The bias and favoritism is real, it is tangible, it is quantitative.
Torpedoes were never a problem. BB accuracy was and is. This is what caused the Cruiser pop to sink to almost nothing shortly after the accuracy buff that just so happen to be scaled in favor of BBs. It wasn't DDs, they had NO trends in their performance stats to show they were ruining Cruiser gameplay... not a single metric showing a need for a nerf..what..so...ever... in fact they were all showing the opposite.

There is a reason the dev teams for other games, as is the natural order of things... see an archetype underperforming via trends... and they either buff them in kind... or they nerf their predator IF that predator is in fact also show trends of overperforming. 
What WG did at this time, shortly after launch... is look at X....Y....Z......or more accurately.... Rock...Paper....Scissors..
They saw almost no-one played Paper, and its trends were showing it as underperforming. Then they looked at Scissors, and its trends were showing as underperforming even more than Paper... but it simply had a lot of players ..that switched from Paper. Instead of nerfing Rock... which was showing trends as overperforming and ALSO had a lot of players... they decided to nerf Scissors. Directly and Indirectly.. just as they have continued to do in a cascade. If they were capable of objective and logical thought, they would have seen the ONLY reason for DDs having such population was because of the game mode. Where every match you could ever play had objectives, and those objectives still equated to wins. DDs were also attributed with the ability to stay hidden from those overpowered BBs, even if they couldn't even dream of killing them, they could still win by caps.

Risk vs Reward. BBs are rewarded GREATLY even for little to no risk. DDs have to risk all to be rewarded only a little and sometimes not at all.
TTK. BBs are attributed to reliably have the SLOWEST incoming TTK. For it to be balanced, they have to be attributed to reliably have the SLOWEST outgoing TTK.
Destroyers are attributes to reliably have the FASTEST incoming TTK. For it to be balanced, they have to be attributed to reliably have the FASTEST outgoing TTK
This isn't a new concept. You see it in ALL other games... ALL of them. Fastest to be killed on average, is fastest killer on average as well. Notice how the squishy archetypes in other games... like Mage....or..Rogue/Assasin... also have the highest reliable burst damage? 

Edited by zarth12
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19 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

When you main something in a game, its what you're most proficient at, and or what you master in, and focus all your time on. Most of the time its just 1 role, but some people can main multiple things. Either way, tit for tat.

 

DD's are extremely easy to be OP with. Doesn't take much skill just some common sense, and situational awareness which I do understand is quite rare, and difficult for the masses apparently. 

When you start playing high tier DDs than come back to us, high tier starts at tier 8.

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8 minutes ago, Final8ty said:

When you start playing high tier DDs than come back to us, high tier starts at tier 8.

So saying I am correct alll the way until the last 2 tiers isn't much of an argument there big boy. It just means maybe the last 2 tiers need adjustments, but every ship line has that problem.

So you're acknowledging the fact that tiers 2-7 the vast majority of tiers, is pretty OP and easy. I can live with that..

 

Like I said in my post though if you read my first first one. You'll see I do acknowledge that radar/sonar is brkoen and requires DD's to be OP in high tiers and severely restricts them.  I don't need to drive tier 8+ DD's to use my brain.

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DDs need better rewards for spotting damage, spotting enemy torps, spotting work in general. 

Also I will admit the next ones are not easy to figure out: rewards for smoking friendlies, rewards for torp salvos that miss but force an enemy to turn broadside and then get killed via friendlies. Rewards for forcing repairs on enemy ships.

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26 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

So saying I am correct alll the way until the last 2 tiers isn't much of an argument there big boy. It just means maybe the last 2 tiers need adjustments, but every ship line has that problem.

So you're acknowledging the fact that tiers 2-7 the vast majority of tiers, is pretty OP and easy. I can live with that..

 

Like I said in my post though if you read my first first one. You'll see I do acknowledge that radar/sonar is brkoen and requires DD's to be OP in high tiers and severely restricts them.  I don't need to drive tier 8+ DD's to use my brain.

It is easier at lower tiers or there would be only one tier.

The OP post is about T8 and up.

Edited by Final8ty

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1 hour ago, Thornir said:

<If you're planning on responding negatively, please do us both a favor and self identify if you have either limited experience in DDs, are a unicum that doesn't seem to have a problem with anything, have hidden your stats, or any combination of these. It will save time for us all later. Thanks>

 

:fish_haloween:

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Thank God battleships sail in straight lines and don't adjust their speed.... or that 7% would be lower.

Me thinks the lower tier destroyers skew that 7%.

Getting a hit with shimmy torps is almost a miracle.

And that 1 in 1000 dev strike with a Khabba is priceless...

Most destroyer damage is with guns...

My signature says it all...

Shimmy with 20km torps and acceleration... 5 kills for win and solo warrior if they had allowed it.

Kamikazi R in random...8 kills.

4th Gearing battle...over 200k for my highest damage game...

First withered, trashkent.....

...

A well played destroyer is like a God...

Radar won't help you when destroyer is on your flank....

Cap late win right...

 

 

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12 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Thank God battleships sail in straight lines and don't adjust their speed.... or that 7% would be lower.

Me thinks the lower tier destroyers skew that 7%.

Getting a hit with shimmy torps is almost a miracle.

And that 1 in 1000 dev strike with a Khabba is priceless...

Most destroyer damage is with guns...

My signature says it all...

Shimmy with 20km torps and acceleration... 5 kills for win and solo warrior if they had allowed it.

Kamikazi R in random...8 kills.

4th Gearing battle...over 200k for my highest damage game...

First withered, trashkent.....

...

A well played destroyer is like a God...

Radar won't help you when destroyer is on your flank....

Cap late win right...

 

 

Actually you would be surprised.

The performance of DDs vs non-DDs is higher in T6 and Below. (compared to the higher tiers) T7 is where the performance of DDs starts to flip dramatically. In T8 and above, most of the positive performance of DDs is netted from OTHER DDs.

To put it simply. Even with DDs being the lowest performer over all,  the performance they do have is still mostly against other DDs, not against non-DDs. This is because not only were the baseline of DDs completely nerfed over and over..directly..and indirectly against the other ship types... but DD lines and premiums were released that specifically have their power weight in pretty much killing OTHER DDs...and yet even WEAKER against the other ship types. The RN DD line will be just another step in this cascade.  No other ship faces that issue. Notice Conqueror? Did not have performance metrics to suggest it was overpowered, it was simply good at hurting/killing BBs.. and less so against smaller targets. Boom.. got a nerf.

Edited by zarth12

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3 hours ago, bleeckert said:

Interesting write up.

Thanks!

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2 hours ago, Lady_Athena said:

I'm a DD and BB main, what does that make me?

Schizophrenic. :Smile_hiding:

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3 hours ago, Lady_Athena said:

<If you're planning on responding negatively, please do us both a favor and self identify if you have either limited experience in DDs, are a unicum that doesn't seem to have a problem with anything, have hidden your stats, or any combination of these. It will save time for us all later. Thanks> 

 

ahaha I love it...

Thanks. I tire of people with blatant agendas or are that are totally out of touch with what the average DD player is dealing with posting "Facts" as "opinions". Er…"opinions" as "facts"...fek...

 

My 2 cents on this though? My mains being mostly BB and DD. (I know! its like being both Republican AND democrat at the same time!). While your stats are certainly presented in a way that favors your arguments. I do need to point out the facts you have completely ignored, but which need to be addressed if you are to make a fair argument.

If there is only 1 DD in a match, I never have many problems with the torps. THey are in essence, well balanced.. It's when you have 4+ DD's in a match, especially at high tier that things start getting insanely lopsided and broken. Especially when 2 of them have the torpedo reload skill, and the 3rd of the 4 have deep water torpedoes.... "Torp spam walls" become a very real thing at higher tiers, especially when you have 3 DD's all sailing together spamming them down corridors and 80 degree angles of each other.. its like being manual dropped by an unseen torpedo squadron of planes cross dropping torps on you, except you have no way of knowing its coming.

I did say they were situational. Day in and day out though...7%.

Another big point to make is that BB 7% Hit rate comment is really useless in the argument. Battleships don't spam blind shots willy nilly like DD's tend to shoot spread after spread of blind torpedoes down choke points, and alley ways, and this is a huge factor in hit %. If DD players ONLY shot torps at proper times, and never blind fired, you'd see those hit %s become much much higher. You also ignored the how many low tier players play DD's and spam the mother loving frack otu of torpedoes because they haven't learned yet the torps have a max range.

I can't say other DD players don't do this. I don't. I aim, and do my best. And BB's DO spam blind shot. Cruisers, too. We also need to consider that if you hit with several torps, and the first one sinks your target, you don't get credit for the others. Also, look at individual ship torp rates at all tiers. They're all close to the average. Low variation.

This being said... you also ignored the point that torpedoes do insane amounts of damage. This potential incoming damage will nearly always force a ship to turn. Even if the torpedo spread misses entirely, it can still get numerous ships killed, and completely turn a fight.. I've seen many times where a wiffed failed torpedo spread that hit nothing, forced multiple ships to turn broad side and get annihilated. It's not always about the damage.

SOME torps do. IJN torps do. German torps don't. BBs have blisters plus a secret reduction factor. So, the 12k number I threw out is actually high. And yes, sometimes torps do cause ships to turn. Sometimes the fire from one cruiser makes me turn broadside to another...Cruisers really suck. They are hard to hit. And I understand Damage isn't all there is, but damage is the yardstick, that and kills.

----------------------

 

My honest opinion about DD's? They are OP, but they need to be, because for some reason Wargaming decided to spam the mother loving frack out of this game with Sonar and Radar...

Mother loving frack, huh? Whatza matter? Can't say what you feel? :Smile_teethhappy:

If wargaming made Sonar and Radar not ignore hard terrain, and work a bit more realistically, or Potentially be able to be knocked out or destroyed, and or just limit the amount of ships that can mount them, then in turn limit the number of max DD's available in a game to 3 tops.. We'd see the "torpedo problem" mentality go away.

Some DD's are monsters in the right hands. But the best DD by Damage is the CM, at #33 on the overall list, so I will have to disagree on the notion of DD and "OP" going in the same sentence...

The torpedo spams would be something you could manage, and deal with but not be so much of a nightmare that BB's are unable to push forward with the 100% chance they are going to get absolutely demolished by APHE HE shells from cruisers shooting 90000 shots a second, and run the risk of getting sidelined by 3 walls of torpedoes from unseen enemies at any potential second. It would open up cruisers to be able to support the DD's and BB's both becoming the wild card support ship they honestly should be. Lowering the Radar/Sonar and making htem less OP would allow DD's to do their job without having to be OP at the same time to counter the hard counters, and BB's could do what they were supposed to do, and be the spearhead in front tanking damage, and finishing off ships.

Agree, mostly. Thing is DDs aren't OP now, and they weren't' before radar, either.

 

 

Edited by Thornir
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3 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

DD's do need to be rewarded more for scouting and they do have a high skill floor. However, they don't have the cliff like learning curve that CV's do and average and even somewhat less than average players are able to do good if not great with them.

Are you saying average and below average players are able to do great in DDs? That is contrary to the notion - stated by KW and others - that the skill floor in DDs is "High", meaning "Hard to do well in". And Brush, I am talking about higher tier DDs, primarily. I don't think what you're saying is correct, if I am understanding you.

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