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LancerUlysses

A Request to the Community Contributors

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HI,

In addition to a small retail shop that I run, I volunteer at a local charity that provides cheap clothes and furniture in my community. I work daily with volunteers and people who are assigned court-ordered community service, as well as persons with developmental and physical disabilities. Everyone is worthy of care and respect as a human being.

 

As a World of Warships player I was drawn to the game by the youtube videos produced by some of the entertaining and colorful personalities that promote this game. To my profound disappointment I have noticed a couple of trends lately that trouble me and have caused me to be much more selective in choosing which of these to follow and to which I will subscribe. 

 

Now I don't mind the odd bit of swearing, colorful personalities will sometimes salt their vocabulary and this is a game which is enjoyed mostly by adults, if the statistics hold value. However, a number of CCs are using terms that are derogatory towards people based on disabilities that they cannot control, such words as I will not repeat here but which would be unthinkable if you actually worked closely with anyone so affected.

 

My request? If you are a CC, do not call anyone by a slur describing someone's disability. Just don't. Find another word, or don't say anything at all. People do dumb things all the time.  

 

Maybe others will disagree, but from this moment forward, I will hit the unsubscribe, unfollow or block button when I encounter such slurs. I have removed the playlists of three of my favorite youtubers from my queue this morning, and I am not looking back. If any of them become enshrined by WG as IAMCOMMANDER, I will not pay WG to use them in the game. 

 

The hard-working and decent people I have the good fortune to work with are totally worth my choice not to tolerate that sort of thing on my presence anymore. 

 

Peace

 

*off soapbox*

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Wow. I mean 99% of the CC hardly use any terms you describe. At the same time As you had stated If you are offended then don't watch. Considering the CC content does not brake any rules by Wg, Youtube, or twitch. I can see you request being denied.

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I know you can't name names here, but I suspect the people you're referring to are from a very different culture with a different mindset, and simply don't see things your way. 

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5 minutes ago, Battleship_Constitution said:

Wow. I mean 99% of the CC hardly use any terms you describe. At the same time As you had stated If you are offended then don't watch. Considering the CC content does not brake any rules by Wg, Youtube, or twitch. I can see you request being denied.

Considering WG has removed people from the CC program for slurs and profanity and insults, I don't think the OP is in the wrong.

 

Then again, WG also booted a CC for calling them out on releasing a blatantly unfinished product, so

Edited by KiyoSenkan
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I don't understand the need to use such derogatory commentary personally, but I do understand some people using it. But there is a difference on how you talk with close private friends in voice comms and what you are saying in public and its not that hard to control yourself....

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If you don't like it, don't watch it.

—Signed, someone who has been there and done that from the opposite end of the OP's perspective.

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4 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

That's right. Everyone knows the new millenium is seeing common sense and decency being replaced by rules lawyering, so why even ask?

No wonder we need so many rules governing behaviour, we've let our sense of what's appropriate atrophy, and now need to be told.

It's a combination of nanny-state sentiments and the bigotry of low expectations, the latter of which can be charitably described as unintended, most of the time. Personally I am sick of it, and consider the constant meddling of the "omnipotent moral busybodies" to be a potential death knell of our Western liberal societies.

Is it better to be decent because you are told to be decent or you will be publicly spanked, or is it better to be decent because you choose to be? By the same token, I can respect someone who uses colorful metaphors as a part of their schtick (and being a good CC almost necessitates having some sort of schtick), even ones I may not particularly care for, if their content is generally funny and informative (f.ex. The Mighty Jingles). I do not respect people who get pissy and moany in their videos and/or articles because that is all they know how to do (f.ex. Flamu). That said, I would never, ever roll up on Flamu and tell him to change his content—to do so would be the height of narcissism and hubris.

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28 minutes ago, LancerUlysses said:

HI,

In addition to a small retail shop that I run, I volunteer at a local charity that provides cheap clothes and furniture in my community. I work daily with volunteers and people who are assigned court-ordered community service, as well as persons with developmental and physical disabilities. Everyone is worthy of care and respect as a human being.

 

As a World of Warships player I was drawn to the game by the youtube videos produced by some of the entertaining and colorful personalities that promote this game. To my profound disappointment I have noticed a couple of trends lately that trouble me and have caused me to be much more selective in choosing which of these to follow and to which I will subscribe. 

 

Now I don't mind the odd bit of swearing, colorful personalities will sometimes salt their vocabulary and this is a game which is enjoyed mostly by adults, if the statistics hold value. However, a number of CCs are using terms that are derogatory towards people based on disabilities that they cannot control, such words as I will not repeat here but which would be unthinkable if you actually worked closely with anyone so affected.

 

My request? If you are a CC, do not call anyone by a slur describing someone's disability. Just don't. Find another word, or don't say anything at all. People do dumb things all the time.  

 

Maybe others will disagree, but from this moment forward, I will hit the unsubscribe, unfollow or block button when I encounter such slurs. I have removed the playlists of three of my favorite youtubers from my queue this morning, and I am not looking back. If any of them become enshrined by WG as IAMCOMMANDER, I will not pay WG to use them in the game. 

 

The hard-working and decent people I have the good fortune to work with are totally worth my choice not to tolerate that sort of thing on my presence anymore. 

 

Peace

 

*off soapbox*

I totally agree. It is against the game rules to attack people with derogatory insults especially people with disabilities. Recently, one CC from the EU server posted a photo of himself insulting autistic people. Another CC that I know contacted WG and they made him get rid of the picture. Insulting people with disabilities is not okay.

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Listen, and understand! That vulgar people are out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear! And it absolutely will not stop, ever!

The only bullcrap I am will to say in this game (plu a little bit more) is crap. I won't say anymore than that because I don't care who other people are, who other people like, what language other people speak. This is the North American server, not the USA Server. Unfortunately while I say I don't care, I care enough to get annoyed at other people saying thing about other people or peoples so I will gladly report them. (I'm censoring myself)

Edited by Vangm94
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1 minute ago, Leopard_IX said:

I totally agree. It is against the game rules to attack people with derogatory insults especially people with disabilities. Recently, one CC from the EU server posted a photo of himself insulting autistic people. Another CC that I know contacted WG and they made him get rid of the picture. Insulting people with disabilities is not okay.

Thank you for proving @Skpstr's point.

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You guys are awesome. OP very kindly asks community contributors to stop a certain behaviour and makes a really great case as to why it's offensive. OP then states that he/she is not gonna watch/follow contributors that use hurtful language and half of you idiots immediately chime in with:

1. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T WATCH LOLZ

2. THERE ARE REASONZ LOLZ U NEED TO GET OVER IT

3. FREE SPEECH DEBATE TIMEZ!!!

 

Good job guys. Keep being you.

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3 minutes ago, legozer said:

You guys are awesome. OP very kindly asks community contributors to stop a certain behaviour and makes a really great case as to why it's offensive. OP then states that he/she is not gonna watch/follow contributors that use hurtful language and half of you idiots immediately chime in with:

1. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T WATCH LOLZ

2. THERE ARE REASONZ LOLZ U NEED TO GET OVER IT

3. FREE SPEECH DEBATE TIMEZ!!!

 

Good job guys. Keep being you.

Well said. I always wonder why some people defend something that is unethical(insulting people with disabilities).

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31 minutes ago, Goodwood_Alpha said:

Is it better to be decent because you are told to be decent or you will be publicly spanked, or is it better to be decent because you choose to be?

Both IMO. Obviously, you can't expect young kids to know better, so you correct their behaviour, so they can at least pretend to be decent, and not embarass themselves, until such time as they mature enough to understand the theory behind being decent.

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31 minutes ago, Leopard_IX said:

I totally agree. It is against the game rules to attack people with derogatory insults....

And this is where you get "rules lawyering".

"But I wasn't attacking people, so it's not against the rules!"

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6 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

It's "behaviour" in this country, just like it's "zed" and not "zee".

Millenium does not need to be capitalised unless being used as a proper noun, just like any other unit of time.

It's not about being a pansy or not, it's about human decency and consideration. But I guess we were brought up differently back in the day.

"Rules lawyering" is a perfectly acceptable term, and everyone knows what it means. Even people that think somebody who owns an Arkansas Beta is a reroll.....

But in any case, nothing wrong with the OP's request. He's asking, not demanding, that a group of people curb a behaviour he deems disrespectful. He's not calling for any external consequences, not asking it to be against the rules, not threatening anything other than his own unsubscribing.

Personally, I find that kind of talk in public despicable, but I don't condone any kind of censorship of it either.

Let people speak as they wish and show their true colours, makes it easier to see who's who.

 

It is against the game rules to say derogatory comments against people especially ones with disabilities 

This is what it says on the terms of service:

transmitting or communicating any content which, at the sole and exclusive discretion of Wargaming, is deemed offensive, including language that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, discriminatory, or otherwise objectionable, or that constitutes cyberbullying;

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In addition to the rule quoted by @Leopard_IX, CCs are, to an extent, the public face of WG and should be held to higher standards.

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1 hour ago, LancerUlysses said:

However, a number of CCs are using terms that are derogatory towards people based on disabilities that they cannot control, such words as I will not repeat here but which would be unthinkable if you actually worked closely with anyone so affected.

 

My request? If you are a CC, do not call anyone by a slur describing someone's disability. Just don't. Find another word, or don't say anything at all. People do dumb things all the time.  

 

Maybe others will disagree, but from this moment forward, I will hit the unsubscribe, unfollow or block button when I encounter such slurs. I have removed the playlists of three of my favorite youtubers from my queue this morning, and I am not looking back. If any of them become enshrined by WG as IAMCOMMANDER, I will not pay WG to use them in the game.

I'm not trying to intimate that it's your responsibility to correct the behavior of others, but at least in relation to most of the CCs I'm aware of, a message or email laying out these same points & sent to the CCs in question would go much further toward fixing the problem than unsubscribing to their channel or posting this note on the forums will.  If the CC then outright refuses to modify their behavior, further steps such as reporting them to their hosting service (these are also TOS violations on most hosting/streaming sites) and/or WarGaming itself can be taken.

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1 hour ago, Skpstr said:

That's right. Everyone knows the new millenium is seeing common sense and decency being replaced by rules lawyering, so why even ask?

No wonder we need so many rules governing behaviour, we've let our sense of what's appropriate atrophy, and now need to be told.

I learned common decency through fear of corporal punishment.  I was never beaten as a child but I was spanked, paddled, whatever.  There is a difference.

As a child I didn't understand why I should be polite, use good manners and treat others respectfully but I did understand that if I didn't there were consequences.  As I matured, I came to understand the why and I understood why it's a good behavior to practice.  I also understand there's a place, time and audience for colorful language, those lines are blurred or gone more recently.

I understand the OP's request and respect it.  It's an ask, not a demand.  All too often I see a demand to not be offended for some perceived slight and the consequences are dire for the accused.

I hope the CC's take the request to heart and temper their language as a courtesy to others.  Not as a demand to stifle their creativity and expression.

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4 minutes ago, ClassicLib said:

I learned common decency through fear of corporal punishment.  I was never beaten as a child but I was spanked, paddled, whatever.  There is a difference.

As a child I didn't understand why I should be polite, use good manners and treat others respectfully but I did understand that if I didn't there were consequences.  As I matured, I came to understand the why and I understood why it's a good behavior to practice.  I also understand there's a place, time and audience for colorful language, those lines are blurred or gone more recently.

I understand the OP's request and respect it.  It's an ask, not a demand.  All too often I see a demand to not be offended for some perceived slight and the consequences are dire for the accused.

I hope the CC's take the request to heart and temper their language as a courtesy to others.  Not as a demand to stifle their creativity and expression.

nailed it.

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Folks we do obviously appreciate the feedback and the intent of the thread.  Let's please keep posts constructive, non-political, and refrain from attacking other posters.  If you have questions drop me a PM.  Thanks!

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33 minutes ago, legozer said:

You guys are awesome. OP very kindly asks community contributors to stop a certain behaviour and makes a really great case as to why it's offensive. OP then states that he/she is not gonna watch/follow contributors that use hurtful language and half of you idiots immediately chime in with:

1. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T WATCH LOLZ

2. THERE ARE REASONZ LOLZ U NEED TO GET OVER IT

3. FREE SPEECH DEBATE TIMEZ!!!

Good job guys. Keep being you.

First of all, offense is never given, it is always taken—even deliberate, calculated and repeated provocation is not inherently offensive if no one takes offense to it. Second, no one is saying that the OP isn't within his right to discontinue watching whatever CCs he's alluding to—he's perfectly at liberty to make such requests, and the rest of us are just as free to disagree. Third, and perhaps most important, who sets the line between regular language and language that is hurtful? It damn sure isn't the OP, because he can only speak for himself and his own feelings and opinions, and no one else's—if he wants to have a shred of credibility, that is. And it isn't you either, especially given your admitted and evident leanings on the subject. I believe C.S. Lewis had some interesting words to say about your kind.

As for the implications of your simplistic strawman of the thread's responses:

1. So? How is this incorrect or invalid as a fact or an opinion? It is a reflection of maturity to recognize the reasons why one does not like a thing, and making the choice to not pursue that thing. I don't like photoetch on my plastic model kits, because it tends to be tiny, fiddly, and difficult to use, so I try to avoid kits that rely overmuch on photoetch. My opinion, based on my own experiences, therefore my own choice.

2. Duh. Of course there are reasons for why people make the choices they make and the things they do, even if they are post-hoc rationalizations. There are reasons why some CCs may use colorful metaphors, just like there are for those who will immediately unsubscribe from a YouTube channel or unfollow a Failbook/Tw@er account the instant they spot said colorful metaphors. None of these choices are inherently wrong, they are just different.

3. The internet ought to be the ultimate landscape of free speech and free expression, and for a while, it was. But as the cancer of social media has spread across the digital realms, people of a certain political and ideological leaning have been crying out for codes and policies that ever further restrict the ability of others to express themselves in the manner they see fit, which is why we have the various platforms featured so prominently in the news in the past few years. They have slowly and steadily turned what should have been the great equalizer for our thoughts and ideas into closed-off echo chambers where the slightest hint of wrongthink will be purged with extreme prejudice. Perhaps most ironically, these very same advocates are now being targeted by those same guidelines, reaping what they sow because, without any consideration of the consequences, they ended up making a rod for their own backs.

Of course, I fully expect an SJW like yourself to immediately dismiss anything I have to say out of hand; you've done it before, so why would you act any differently? So rather than trying to change your mind, I typed out this wall of text (in addition to my other posts here) to try to lend a sense of perspective to the OP. As a kid, I used to be called "r-e-tarded" all the damn time, and verbally lashed out against those who did it, to no avail. But as I grew up, I realized that not only did the word not bother me any more (for various reasons, but mostly because I had since figured out that I wasn't an r-[edited]), but that the only reason I was called that as a kid was specifically because it got a rise out of me. Kids are horrible people, and as @Skpstr rightly points out, they need to be taught what is and is not acceptable. But they also need to be taught what they should endure and ignore, and what they should go to an authority figure to deal with; if they aren't taught this, then then will be at a severe disadvantage as adults.

Personally, I worry about what such requests will end up doing to the Wargaming community, especially as it is embodied by the CCs. They tend to be picked based around a certain set of skills, such as the ability to communicate and boil complex ideas into simpler, easier-to-digest nuggets of knowledge, as well as their value as entertainers. If, as the OP desires, Wargaming were to start policing their language and how they presented themselves (beyond what should be considered the obvious no-nos of defamation, incitement, etc.), then their ability to be effective advocates for the game and its player base would be markedly hamstrung at best, and at worst, turned into soul-less shills that will all be forced to have the same squeaky-clean personalities that make watching and/or reading their content as entertaining as watching grass grow.

The forums are already in imminent danger of falling into that extreme, near as I can tell.

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There's a lot of offensive entertainment: on the internet, on TV, in the movies. I can't possibly battle all of it, but I don't have to pay for it or support it by watching ads.

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13 minutes ago, Goodwood_Alpha said:

First of all, offense is never given, it is always taken—even deliberate, calculated and repeated provocation is not inherently offensive if no one takes offense to it. Second, no one is saying that the OP isn't within his right to discontinue watching whatever CCs he's alluding to—he's perfectly at liberty to make such requests, and the rest of us are just as free to disagree. Third, and perhaps most important, who sets the line between regular language and language that is hurtful? It damn sure isn't the OP, because he can only speak for himself and his own feelings and opinions, and no one else's—if he wants to have a shred of credibility, that is. And it isn't you either, especially given your admitted and evident leanings on the subject. I believe C.S. Lewis had some interesting words to say about your kind.

As for the implications of your simplistic strawman of the thread's responses:

1. So? How is this incorrect or invalid as a fact or an opinion? It is a reflection of maturity to recognize the reasons why one does not like a thing, and making the choice to not pursue that thing. I don't like photoetch on my plastic model kits, because it tends to be tiny, fiddly, and difficult to use, so I try to avoid kits that rely overmuch on photoetch. My opinion, based on my own experiences, therefore my own choice.

2. Duh. Of course there are reasons for why people make the choices they make and the things they do, even if they are post-hoc rationalizations. There are reasons why some CCs may use colorful metaphors, just like there are for those who will immediately unsubscribe from a YouTube channel or unfollow a Failbook/Tw@er account the instant they spot said colorful metaphors. None of these choices are inherently wrong, they are just different.

3. The internet ought to be the ultimate landscape of free speech and free expression, and for a while, it was. But as the cancer of social media has spread across the digital realms, people of a certain political and ideological leaning have been crying out for codes and policies that ever further restrict the ability of others to express themselves in the manner they see fit, which is why we have the various platforms featured so prominently in the news in the past few years. They have slowly and steadily turned what should have been the great equalizer for our thoughts and ideas into closed-off echo chambers where the slightest hint of wrongthink will be purged with extreme prejudice. Perhaps most ironically, these very same advocates are now being targeted by those same guidelines, reaping what they sow because, without any consideration of the consequences, they ended up making a rod for their own backs.

Of course, I fully expect an SJW like yourself to immediately dismiss anything I have to say out of hand; you've done it before, so why would you act any differently? So rather than trying to change your mind, I typed out this wall of text (in addition to my other posts here) to try to lend a sense of perspective to the OP. As a kid, I used to be called "r-e-tarded" all the damn time, and verbally lashed out against those who did it, to no avail. But as I grew up, I realized that not only did the word not bother me any more (for various reasons, but mostly because I had since figured out that I wasn't an r-[edited]), but that the only reason I was called that as a kid was specifically because it got a rise out of me. Kids are horrible people, and as @Skpstr rightly points out, they need to be taught what is and is not acceptable. But they also need to be taught what they should endure and ignore, and what they should go to an authority figure to deal with; if they aren't taught this, then then will be at a severe disadvantage as adults.

Personally, I worry about what such requests will end up doing to the Wargaming community, especially as it is embodied by the CCs. They tend to be picked based around a certain set of skills, such as the ability to communicate and boil complex ideas into simpler, easier-to-digest nuggets of knowledge, as well as their value as entertainers. If, as the OP desires, Wargaming were to start policing their language and how they presented themselves (beyond what should be considered the obvious no-nos of defamation, incitement, etc.), then their ability to be effective advocates for the game and its player base would be markedly hamstrung at best, and at worst, turned into soul-less shills that will all be forced to have the same squeaky-clean personalities that make watching and/or reading their content as entertaining as watching grass grow.

The forums are already in imminent danger of falling into that extreme, near as I can tell.

If you don't get offended by derogatory terms that people may say about you, that does not mean that other people will not get offended. This game has rules, and if you don't like them, just don't play the game. It's as simple as that.

Edited by Leopard_IX

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2 minutes ago, Leopard_IX said:

If you don't get offended by derogatory terms that people may say about you, that does not mean that other people will not get offended. This game has rules, and if you don't like them, just don't play the game. It's as simple as that.

If you do get offended by derogatory terms that people may say about others, that does not mean that other people will get offended.

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