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Lone_Starr

Why is Bogue 1.5kts slower than it actually was?

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I was doing some reading about US carriers and happened to notice listed speed for the Bogue class CVE's is shown as 18 kts. Opened up my Encyclopedia of Warships...18 kts. A couple online reference sources...18 kts.

Bogue in game does 16.5 kts.  Did the Devs use a different speed for a reason?

Its not like 18 kts is fast but still better then 16.5.

Edited by Lone_Starr
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In short the Langley and the Bogue at basically construction debris dumpsters with a flight deck welding on them. Quibbling about 1.5 knots is laughable!

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Real life takes a back seat to arcade balancing. I would say, must ships in the game due not resemble their real life capabilities, but they're  balanced against the competition faced in a given tier (except the BB class which is OP regardless of tier).

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One must remember that Bogues served a small handful of purposes, most of them not very glamorous. They ferried aircraft across the ocean, did convoy escort duties, and generally helped spread out aircraft in case any of them were sunk. The loss of a "jeep" carrier wouldn't be as traumatic on terms of lost aircraft as a fleet carrier like an Essex. 

The only thing that requires any semblance of speed in those situations is getting aircraft off the deck, which isn't modeled in the game. The average speed of a convoy is around 8-12 knots and the only time you'd need full speed is if you came under attack from a U-boat (as the IJN forbade their submarines to waste precious time and torpedoes on non-combatants)
The other problem? The Bogues were built on dumpy, un-hydrodynamic hulls of C3 class cargo ships. Casablanca class CVE's were built on victory ships. They were all less than ideal in terms of speed, but in 99% of situations, you shouldn't need it. 

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7 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Real life takes a back seat to arcade balancing. I would say, must ships in the game due not resemble their real life capabilities, but they're  balanced against the competition faced in a given tier (except the BB class which is OP regardless of tier).

Real life is what they use as general guide for the game. And BBs were poweful in real life.

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1 minute ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

And BBs were poweful in real life.

Hey Admiral, happy weekend.

BTW I would argue yes BBs were powerful and useful in there era of operation no doubt. Then the changing of  tactics with the advancement of the CV, totally made the BB class in real life a one trick obsolete pony. At least in the game their gods, but hey its still a fun game :cap_rambo:

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

And BBs were poweful in real life.

Except they weren't. In WWII battleships really did not accomplish much. They were expensive, inefficient, prone to destruction by carrier aviation, extremely inaccurate, and all around a waste of material.

Instead of expanding the UBoat fleet, Germany built two useless battleships that did nothing but get sunk.

Japan is an excersise in futility as their super battleship program literally did not even have the fuel to be fielded in any respect.

The mighty Iowa (or was it missouri) only sunk, what, a crippled training cruiser?

Real life battleships were nothing more than an expensive waste that could have been better used basically anywhere else.

BBs are only powerful in wows because the game mechanics permit them to be. They're easy. Because they are easy, they are popular. Because they are popular there grows a lot of incorrect falsities about their "power" in naval history.

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43 minutes ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Except they weren't. In WWII battleships really did not accomplish much. They were expensive, inefficient, prone to destruction by carrier aviation, extremely inaccurate, and all around a waste of material.

Instead of expanding the UBoat fleet, Germany built two useless battleships that did nothing but get sunk.

Japan is an excersise in futility as their super battleship program literally did not even have the fuel to be fielded in any respect.

The mighty Iowa (or was it missouri) only sunk, what, a crippled training cruiser?

Real life battleships were nothing more than an expensive waste that could have been better used basically anywhere else.

BBs are only powerful in wows because the game mechanics permit them to be. They're easy. Because they are easy, they are popular. Because they are popular there grows a lot of incorrect falsities about their "power" in naval history.

 

Battleships were deterrent to enemy fleet. I can call my dog useless and annoying cause he barked a lot during the night. But people are reluctant to break in because I have a dog.  

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2 hours ago, Lone_Starr said:

I was doing some reading about US carriers and happened to notice listed speed for the Bogue class CVE's is shown as 18 kts. Opened up my Encyclopedia of Warships...18 kts. A couple online reference sources...18 kts.

Bogue in game does 16.5 kts.  Did the Devs use a different speed for a reason?

Its not like 18 kts is fast but still better then 16.5.

iirc the Bogue class were escort CVs, probably not meant to be with a main battle fleet, more than likely used in smaller task forces or maybe even in escorting convoys, im not sure

Edited by tcbaker777

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2 reasons Bogue is so sloooooow.

1. It is historical (as many have mentioned, a converted merchantman)

2. It isn't Russian. Now if the US had given one to the Soviets, that one would be in game doing 30kts.

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1 hour ago, SoftAndCute said:

 

Battleships were deterrent to enemy fleet. I can call my dog useless and annoying cause he barked a lot during the night. But people are reluctant to break in because I have a dog.  

Tell me how well the Bismark / Yamato deterred those airplanes.

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14 minutes ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Tell me how well the Bismark / Yamato deterred those airplanes.

Tell me how many ships, carries and planes were used to sink Bismark and Yamato. 

Edited by SoftAndCute
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17 minutes ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Tell me how well the Bismark / Yamato deterred those airplanes.

Sibuyan Sea actually demonstrated very well that even with significantly greater numbers, carrier forces had a hard time actually stopping SAG's from moving in daylight. Halsey could deal significant damage to Center Force, but even with the largest carrier fleet in history, he could not destroy it.

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15 minutes ago, SoftAndCute said:

Tell me how many ships, carries and planes were used to sink Bismark and Yamato. 

Carriers were still markedly the death of the already fairly useless and expensive battleship.

For the same manpower and budget, carriers or destroyers were a much better investment. Those won the war, not the overvalued battleship.

Even in WoWs I would take a good DD player over a good BB player.

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2 minutes ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Carriers were still markedly the death of the already fairly useless and expensive battleship.

For the same manpower and budget, carriers or destroyers were a much better investment. Those won the war, not the overvalued battleship.

Even in WoWs I would take a good DD player over a good BB player.

yes, carriers are also useless against destroyers equipped with missile equipped with nukes. We are talking about roles battleships played in WWII. it's like saying battering rams were useless against tanks. Technologies evolved and what was important once became obsolete. Battleships played key parts if you asked troops landing on enemy beaches in WWII for their suppression salvos . Nowadays, hacking is how counties fight a war and carriers/ destroyers are too expensive.

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1 hour ago, SoftAndCute said:

yes, carriers are also useless against destroyers equipped with missile equipped with nukes. We are talking about roles battleships played in WWII. it's like saying battering rams were useless against tanks. Technologies evolved and what was important once became obsolete. Battleships played key parts if you asked troops landing on enemy beaches in WWII for their suppression salvos . Nowadays, hacking is how counties fight a war and carriers/ destroyers are too expensive.

Carriers were in WW2.

The roles BBs played in WW2 was shore shelling. Naval combat, not so much.

Still a waste of metal.

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On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 9:21 PM, The_Painted_Target said:

Carriers were in WW2.

The roles BBs played in WW2 was shore shelling. Naval combat, not so much.

Still a waste of metal.

You fight the war with what you have. The ships sunk and then raised at Pearl should never had the repairs wasted on them and any new BB's planned should have been converted to CV's if possible. Didn't happen because there were still too many who still didn't believe the era of the BB was over with, or that just wanted to complete what they started.

Either way...I would still rather be running away at 18 kts in a Bogue instead of 16.5 if given the choice and the tier 4-5 US CV's are 10 and 11.5 kts slower than their same tier opponents. I know 1.5 kts isn't much but still rather have it than not. Just figured it was usual Russian bias.

Edited by Lone_Starr

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Bogue-class was a CVE.  The US built many CVEs for the purpose of convoy escort, aircraft ferrying, and submarine hunter-killer groups.  They also massed them together for ground attack focus, while the Fleet CVs focused on engaging warships.  You don't need a 30kt+ speed for a CVE like you do a CV (Fleet Carrier) or CVL built for the fast speeds demanded of fleet operations.  Convoys don't go that fast to begin with and submarines are terrible in speed, the threats they were meant to go after.

 

You got the cheap CVEs meant to do the common dirty work that the navy needed.

Then you got the faster CVLs that supplement the big, fast Fleet CVs.

 

Wikipedia had a list of the CVEs built and commissioned for WWII:

Long Island class: Two ships, one in USN service (USS Long Island) and one in British service (HMS Archer).
Avenger class: Four ships, one mainly in USN service (as USS Charger) and three in British service.
Sangamon class: Four ships, all in USN service.
Bogue class: 45 ships, 11 in USN service, 34 in British service as Attacker class (first group) and Ruler class (second group).
Casablanca class: 50 ships, all in USN service.
Commencement Bay class: 19 ships, all in USN service, including two that were accepted but not commissioned and laid up for many years after the war. Four more units were canceled and scrapped on the building slips. The Commencement Bay-class ships were seen as the finest escort carriers ever built, and several units continued in service after the war as training carriers, aircraft ferries and other auxiliary uses.

===

Those are substantial numbers of mobile airfields to bring air power into play where they otherwise would not exist, without having to send a more valuable Fleet CV.  A CVE as part of a submarine hunter killer group is monstrous.  Not to mention a mass of CVEs sending their planes is still a concern, as Kurita's Center Force found out in Leyte Gulf / Samar.  The American Fleet CVs were with Halsey on an idiotic wild goose chase while the CVEs that were meant for ground support suddenly had to shift to anti-ship duties.  The CVE air attack was so intense that Kurita thought he was dealing with the USN's Carrier Task Force with all the big, fancy Fleet CVs, when in fact he was dealing with the cheap, throwaway CVEs.

 

The German Type VIIC was the Kriegsmarine's most numerous U-Boat, and she went max speed 17.7kts surfaced, 7.6 submerged.  A CVE with planes to patrol for U-Boat sightings and attacking them was kryptonite for the subs, and that's excluding what the accompanying DDEs will do.  DDEs themselves weren't that fast.  The numerous Buckley-class DDEs only went 24kts.  Evarts-class, the first USN DDE class, only went 19kts.  All this was still more than enough for convoy escort and submarine killing duties.

 

CVEs were part of the tools used to turn the tables against the submarine threat, turning the hunters into roadkill.

 

They did not need 30kt speeds to do this.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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49 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You don't need a 30kt+ speed for a CVE like you do a CV (Fleet Carrier) or CVL built for the fast speeds demanded of fleet operations. 

True but that extra 15kts of speed combined with a tiny flight deck would influence how heavy a plane you could launch. Pretty nerve wracking for the pilot at the other end of the flight too with that postage-stamp sized deck.

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

True but that extra 15kts of speed combined with a tiny flight deck would influence how heavy a plane you could launch. Pretty nerve wracking for the pilot at the other end of the flight too with that postage-stamp sized deck.

That's why they get paid extra :Smile_Default:

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13 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

True but that extra 15kts of speed combined with a tiny flight deck would influence how heavy a plane you could launch. Pretty nerve wracking for the pilot at the other end of the flight too with that postage-stamp sized deck.

CVEs had a steam catapult to make up for the lack of flight deck. While they could not operate SB2Cs, they could fly FM-2s, F6Fs, SBDs, and Avengers.

 

 

Side Note, USS Guadalcanal CVE-60 was flagship of the group that captured the U-505.

USS_Guadalcanal_(CVE-60)_lying_alongside 

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On 20.08.2018 at 12:14 AM, The_Painted_Target said:

Except they weren't. In WWII battleships really did not accomplish much. They were expensive, inefficient, prone to destruction by carrier aviation, extremely inaccurate, and all around a waste of material.

Instead of expanding the UBoat fleet, Germany built two useless battleships that did nothing but get sunk.

Japan is an excersise in futility as their super battleship program literally did not even have the fuel to be fielded in any respect.

The mighty Iowa (or was it missouri) only sunk, what, a crippled training cruiser?

Real life battleships were nothing more than an expensive waste that could have been better used basically anywhere else.

Wow, such incisive, biting, insightful analysis.

Yes, yes...imagine what better decisions those [edited] Roosevelt, Cordell Hull, Churchill, Nimitz, Halsey, et. al., could have made if they had your acerbic wisdom and bile available to them.

Yeah, some real dunces would have needed 80 years of historical perspective and a tag team of historians, authors and naval war college analysts to decipher it all so they could [edited] on past generations with their unsurpassed wisdom.

Oh, wait...

Edited by turbo07
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On 8/19/2018 at 3:45 PM, Sledgehammer427 said:

The only thing that requires any semblance of speed in those situations is getting aircraft off the deck, which isn't modeled in the game. 

I find myself wishing that were in game, would prevent the awful habit of CV captains parking behind islands and becoming air bases. The CV should have to be moving at full speed to launch or recover aircraft.

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1 hour ago, Gen_Saris said:

I find myself wishing that were in game, would prevent the awful habit of CV captains parking behind islands and becoming air bases. The CV should have to be moving at full speed to launch or recover aircraft.

Except IRL, any CV even remotely in range of the enemies guns has really screwed up. The only excuse is that they were surprised, which generally means somebody screwed up. Since the game demands all combatants remain in one small area, real life tactics don't apply. Of course the better CV captains sail with (OK, behind) their fleet to provide mutual cover.

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