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_Marines

Poll: Which Tier 7 battleship is the strongest for a secondary build?

Which T7 BB is the strongest for a secondary build?  

115 members have voted

  1. 1. Which Tier 7 battleship(s) is the strongest for a secondary build?

    • KM - Gneisenau
    • KM - Scharnhorst
    • MNF - Lyon
    • IJN - Ashitaka (愛鷹)
    • IJN - Nagato (長門)
    • RN - Nelson
    • RN - King George V
    • RN - Duke of York
    • RN - Hood
    • USN - Colorado
    • I haven't played battleships with a secondary build

34 comments in this topic

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Traditionally I thought Scharnhorst would be the ideal battleship in Tier 7 for a secondary build, as she is made to push hard with teammates. Recently Carl told me that Gneisenau is stronger. Without verifying I guess he is right:

On 8/17/2018 at 1:28 PM, Carl said:

Gneisenau hands down, Nelson is very meh for a secondary build. Scharnhorst is pretty decent but not as good as her sister. 

I have also recently heard that there are players playing Lyon, Nagato, and Ashitaka with secondary builds and they may be fun to play:

On 3/19/2018 at 10:42 AM, poeticmotion said:

 The IFHE build for Alsace works so well because she has a large number of fast-firing 100mm secondaries with outstanding coverage arcs around the ship. Thwse secondaries cannot penetrate much of anything,  even DDs, limiting them to firestarting for utility/damage. Taking IFHE allows them to pen most DDs, common non-belt plate of most cruisers, and superstructures of BBs. My average secondary damage literally quadrupled with IFHE. It's a critical skill for Alsace drivers.

Richelieu has fewer 100mm mounts and, especially in operations, faces fewer ships that they can't pen. Lyon and Normandie do not use 100mm secondaries. So IFHE will be far less useful for Richelieu and pretty much useless for Lyon and Normandie.

On 2/11/2018 at 10:16 PM, YamatoA150 said:

Having tried it out on Lyon, I'd say it isn't worth it; at least, for a regular captain. Now if you plan to occasionally derp around, it can work on an alternate captain where hyper-aggressiveness is opted over playing with the team. However, considering that Lyon is already known to be a short-range blaster, most informed players will usually kite just far enough out of secondary range to spam HE or torps. And at ranges where they're also more likely to be safe from Lyon's poor shell ballistics and increased chance of all 16 shells landing everywhere but on them (and yes, I've had it happen at 10km with a disturbing bit of regularity before I just took the aim module instead).

There's also the fact that while Nagato can do a decent secondary build despite having similar speed, she also has the armor to handle it in most cases. And Scharn/Gneis both also have speed to keep up the pressure on cruisers or DDs attempting to zig-zag to throw off the main gun aim. Lyon appears to be extremely vulnerable to IFHE, and her few secondary mounts are scattered across 4 turrets per side, which after some exposure to RNBB HE, ended up being vaped in most cases.

As for the ship herself, Lyon really should have had the alternate design setup with the B turret superfiring over the A turret. That alone would help offset her shotgun accuracy and thin armor, and also better work into the fictional speed buff setup.

On 7/19/2018 at 7:46 AM, db4100 said:

Ashitaka is not that bad if played correctly, and is not up tiered.

shot-18.07.19_03.44.48-0435.jpg

I don't really have any data on hand, but I suppose we could place a target for these ships in the training room to measure their secondary weapons' DPS with a dedicated build and then get scientific about it. For the time being, let us discuss and vote what is the strongest you think.:Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by _Marines
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KM due is obvious but the Lyon would be stronger than most think at the cost of doing what see does well

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The thing with Lyon is that you really should take the AA module instead of the secondary module. Nagato has mostly AP secondaries, and Ashitaka, just, no. Gneisenau edges out Scharnhorst, due to the hull upgrade. With CO, it's just like with Lyon, you need to stress the AA, because you're so slow, you're always a CV target. Nelson, 100% no. Both Ashi and Nelson simply don't have the armor or the secondaries for a close quarters brawl. Hood has very limited secondaries, as do DoY and KGV.

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In the opening post OP mentioned Gniesenau being better than Scharnhorst. Having brought up 19pt captains in each I disagree from the brawlers standpoint that Gnies's guns are slow to reload yes, they do more dmg than Scharn but in close quarters engagements Scharn dishes it out so much faster you have IMO a better victory/survival chance than Gnies. Don't get me wrong both are great ships I love them both but play Scharnhorst more often.

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My opinion:

  1. Sharnhorst - 2.0 sigma, 20s reloads, torpedoes, and KM style armoring.
  2. Gneisenau - Punchier guns, torpedoes, KM style armoring, and additional secondaries/AA.
  3. Lyon - Assuming no CVs, minimal focus from HE spam, and players being able to get in close enough. 12x HE-firing, 130mm guns per side isn't bad, moreso when you add in her massive 16x main gun barrage. Again, such a build is better off on an alternate captain, and much more viable in Operations and Co-Op rather than Randoms.
  4. Nagato - She was once the queen of secondary builds when it was just 2 BB lines, but was overshadowed with the KM line onwards. She can still do a solid secondary build, but nowadays it's more about using her accuracy to nuke any would-be secondary-built battleships before they can get close to her. That being said, a secondary build is still fun, but suboptimal in the current meta outside of Operations.
Edited by YamatoA150
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As a CV player, the target's AA rating is only one of many factors for deciding whether to prioritize. Escorts are more important. I strongly avoid BBs (even those with weak AA) escorted by a cruiser or two. They murder my planes.

7 minutes ago, Jim_Byrnes said:

In the opening post OP mentioned Gniesenau being better than Scharnhorst. Having brought up 19pt captains in each I disagree from the brawlers standpoint that Gnies's guns are slow to reload yes, they do more dmg than Scharn but in close quarters engagements Scharn dishes it out so much faster you have IMO a better victory/survival chance than Gnies. Don't get me wrong both are great ships I love them both but play Scharnhorst more often.

Both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau should have IFHE as their 3rd captain skill in the 4th row after MFCSA (+circa 200% DPS) and AFT (+20% range), correct? My understanding is that the IFHE does have a significant DPS increase effect on Scharnhorst and Gneisenau's secondaries.

For Lyon and Normandie, IFHE should be useless like poeticmotion said quoted on top.

(Shameless using TheDreadnought's picture:)

On 7/4/2018 at 10:02 AM, TheDreadnought said:

Mass Build 1.JPG

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Shiny Horse is my go-to for secondary builds.  She has punchy guns and torpedoes as well.  All of this makes for a good brawler.

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8 minutes ago, YamatoA150 said:

My opinion:

  1. Sharnhorst - 2.0 sigma, 20s reloads, torpedoes, and KM style armoring.
  2. Gneisenau - Punchier guns, torpedoes, KM style armoring, and additional secondaries/AA. Also Hydro, allowing her to screen for enemy torpedoes.
  3. Lyon - Assuming no CVs, minimal focus from HE spam, and players being able to get in close enough. 20x HE-firing, 130mm guns per side isn't bad, moreso when you add in her massive 16" main gun barrage. Again, such a build is better off on an alternate captain, and much more viable in Operations and Co-Op rather than Randoms.
  4. Nagato - She was once the queen of secondary builds when it was just 2 BB lines, but was overshadowed with the KM line onwards. She can still do a solid secondary build, but nowadays it's more about using her accuracy to nuke any would-be secondary-built battleships before they can get close to her. That being said, a secondary build is still fun, but suboptimal in the current meta outside of Operations.

What's your captain skills for Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, mind me ask? I wonder whether to IFHE or not to IFHE. (My instinct is to IFHE. They are German, you know. =)

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The Shiney Horse sisters are the best, the Gneisenau is slightly better on paper but I would call it equal in actual game matches

 

I've toyed with the other spots during last Christmas free respec week and I'll break it down the best I can:

 

Colorado - Hilarious because NOONE expects it, especially DDs and cruisers and I've made a few very salty lol, overall useless but fun in a derpy way

 

Nagato - Worse than the Colorado because of the AP, BUT I did destroy a cruiser that stayed broadside to me, probably multiple citadels. Very useless

 

Nelson - useful if someone chases you I guess but never got into that situation

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3 hours ago, _Marines said:

What's your captain skills for Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, mind me ask? I wonder whether to IFHE or not to IFHE. (My instinct is to IFHE. They are German, you know. =)

I use my Gneis captain on Scharn. Sometimes on Tirpitz too, due to the torpedoes.

He has:

  • Preventative Maintenance - More Module HP; and if I'm going to go secondary diving, I expect to be fired upon anyway, so I zig-zag and adjust speeds continuously.
  • High Alert - Since I'm not taking Fire Prevention, slightly shorter DCP CD helps when I'm burning and brawling.
  • Adrenaline Rush - Since it increases both main and secondary RoF the more damage one takes.
  • Basic Firing Training - A buff to both secondaries and AA, and Gneis has pretty good long-range AA compared to Colorado.
  • Basics of Survivability - This one is entirely optional; I could have gone with Torpedo Armament Expertise (-10% Torp Reload), or Demolition Expert (for the secondaries), or Vigilance (for additional early torpedo warning). I just use it along with the Module to reduce fires to about what, 20s or so?
  • Advanced Firing Training - Again, a buff to both secondaries and AA.
  • Manual FC for Secondary Armament - This one is another optional; but I run it since the accuracy is pretty nice, and I'm usually only diving in from the sides, not through the center. Not like how Massachusetts can dive through the center and still melt things on both sides despite not having ManSec. Thus, only one side is usually focusing on a target. The skill could be replaced by Fire Prevention or Concealment Expert, depending on the player. I can tend to be too aggressive, so I don't bother with CE.
Edited by YamatoA150
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be warned... a secondary build is so much fun that you typically get yourself in harms way to often just to use them.

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25 minutes ago, APA_204 said:

be warned... a secondary build is so much fun that you typically get yourself in harms way to often just to use them.

yep.  Sad , but fun

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The top hull Gneisenau has the dual purpose Hermelin guns for secondaries.  These are always nasty.

If operators had a choice between 6) 15" and 9) 11" , it would be a simple Mogami type choice...  but that's a different topic.

I've got the Gneisenau, but have little time to play with all the T8-T10 missions and campaigns going on.

Wonder if I can take it into the current Hermes operation....  as a bot in disguise ??   LOL

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Here is what happened to me recently.  I was either running the Shiratsuyu or Shinome with almost full health, and it was towards the last half of the game.  There was a battleship 2-3k away behind an island and I was undetected.  I was coming up from the battleship's [edited].  Perfect ambush, right?  The battleship turned out to be a Richelieu, which has all of it's main guns in the front.  Yay! Even better.  Nope.  As it turns out, all of her secondaries are in the rear pointed at me as I approached.  I continued my attack with my bow pointed at the stern of the Richelieu.  Bam, bam, bam.  Engine knocked out, steering gone, set on fire, and torpedo tubes damaged.  Can it get any worse?  I hit the repair button and continued my attack.....then BOOM.  I am a slipping under the waves.  All this in about 15 seconds.  The Richelieu battleship player got a righteous kill with a "close quarters expert" award.  If I wasn't in such shock, I should of asked that Richelieu player what kind of build he had for that ship.   I am quite sure he had a secondary build with possibly the "manual fire control for secondary guns" captain skill, which would definitely explain the quick damage she did.

I figured only German battleships and the USS Massachusetts were the only one to fear when it comes to secondaries......I was wrong.

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I read somewhere on this forum that a lot of the German battleships already have IFHE for their secondaries.

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2 hours ago, YamatoA150 said:

My opinion:

  1. Sharnhorst - 2.0 sigma, 20s reloads, torpedoes, and KM style armoring.
  2. Gneisenau - Punchier guns, torpedoes, KM style armoring, and additional secondaries/AA. Also Hydro, allowing her to screen for enemy torpedoes.
  3. Lyon - Assuming no CVs, minimal focus from HE spam, and players being able to get in close enough. 20x HE-firing, 130mm guns per side isn't bad, moreso when you add in her massive 16x main gun barrage. Again, such a build is better off on an alternate captain, and much more viable in Operations and Co-Op rather than Randoms.
  4. Nagato - She was once the queen of secondary builds when it was just 2 BB lines, but was overshadowed with the KM line onwards. She can still do a solid secondary build, but nowadays it's more about using her accuracy to nuke any would-be secondary-built battleships before they can get close to her. That being said, a secondary build is still fun, but suboptimal in the current meta outside of Operations.

Mostly agree with this but Gneis doesnt have hydro.

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1 hour ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

The thing with Lyon is that you really should take the AA module instead of the secondary module. Nagato has mostly AP secondaries, and Ashitaka, just, no. Gneisenau edges out Scharnhorst, due to the hull upgrade. With CO, it's just like with Lyon, you need to stress the AA, because you're so slow, you're always a CV target. Nelson, 100% no. Both Ashi and Nelson simply don't have the armor or the secondaries for a close quarters brawl. Hood has very limited secondaries, as do DoY and KGV.

  True- Nelson is one of the few RN BB's that's easy to citadel, due to all those guns strung out on the foredeck.   Getting into a close range brawl with another powerful BB is just asking for it.  It essentially suffers from Myoko syndrome, lol.

  Even with a mainly AA/survival build- LYON has very good secondaries.  Mine regularly puts up ridiculous numbers of hits- often way in excess of any main battery hits, and contributes significantly to it's damage total.   The ship itself is also small in comparison to most of it's contemporaries, and rather agile- you'll constantly outturn your guns, but you can be surprisingly effective in close, and protect your citadel fairly well.  (provided you don't get stupid and charge into the middle of a BB pack, that is, lol!)  All the while, those secondaries are pew! pew! pewing away, starting fires and eating away at the enemiy's health.   When you DO get your guns to lock, the small caliber and French dispersion matters far less at those ranges!  Lyon has murdered many a ship with secondaries!

 Gneisenau is an obvious choice for this, and it has torps, too.  I didn't go full secondaries on mine- I went for AA and survival as well.  Thanks to WG's German BB dispersion and small # of guns,  secondary and torp damage frequently made up the bulk of what the ship dished out.

  Of the two, I enjoyed playing Lyon more.  A main battery that can actually hit things consistently trumps torpedoes any day of the week on a BB...

  While Colorado's secondaries are numerous, and sometimes surprisingly effective- I wouldn't bet the farm on them.  As others have said, CO benefits far more from AA skills- which also boost it's secondaries.   The 5"/51's are casemate guns, and the 5"/25's aren't really a good secondary gun.   Someone who gets too close- and stays there- is in for an unpleasant surprise.  The range blows, but there's nothing wrong with the damage!   I once murdered a Kirov this way- I was too busy dodging his torps, then bringing my ship back around to get my guns back on target to shoot at him.  My secondaries, however...  Once I did get my guns back around and on target, he was down to a sliver of health.  A single shell from my forward turret ended him.   All the while, the gunners on the other side were pounding away at a Kartoon Kongo- and actually drove him away- burning brightly, and with a nice chunk of his health gone.   ONE turret fired,  with 1 red ship dead and another driven off after taking significant damage- not too shabby for an AA spec BB!

  I have no experience in any of the tier 7 IJN's, so I cannot say how they do.

 The Brits are okay, secondary-wise, but nothing special.   I wouldn't spec any of them for secondaries.

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OK..   After looking it over and making various considerations...

It's the NAGATO.

Having a combination of AP and HE secondaries really takes a vicious bite out of cruisers and DDs, and also wrecks battleships too.  And the 7.2 KM range is pretty decent too.

 

Nagato_Secondary.jpg

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1 hour ago, RipNuN2 said:

Mostly agree with this but Gneis doesnt have hydro.

D'oh! I always forget that.

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I didn't play a lot of Lyon and didn't brawl with her much. A buddy of mine wanted to grind his Richelieu so I free-XPed out of Lyon after ten games or so to grind Richie with him. No regrets, although Lyon was a fun ship. I do brawl constantly in my Gneisenau and she's very strong with a secondaries build with or without IFHE. 

T8-10, I prefer French BBs over all others for secondary builds. They're a bit less tanky than German BBs, but I do more damage with them and they are a bit more versatile for mid-range combat when you just can;t get into secondary range, plus their ability to flex quickly across the map. Richelieu is a bit quirky for secondary builds just due to her layout; you can pretty much only put out your max DPS from secondaries when you're kiting. I run IFHE/AFT/Manual Secondaries on Alsace and I skip IFHE on Republique and use those points elsewhere since the 127mm/152mm secondaries on the Repub don't need IFHE (the IFHE is mostly needed for the 100mm guns on Alsace.) 

For tier 7, I'd likely go with Gneisenau for a secondary build, but like I said, I didn't really play enough Lyon to make a fair comparison. I will say Gneis is a stronger brawler than anything else at that tier, and I'd be surprised if Lyon is significantly better. 

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It's a VERY close top three between Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and Lyon. Gneisenau is the winner for her hull upgrade, and for being more close-range focused to begin with due to her 6 15" rifles, while Sharnhorst can be a more all-range boat with her 9 11" guns. Lyon has fragility up close as a downside, but DAT BROADSIDE and her agility can make up for it. I've seen them catch off-guard and take down Bismarcks up close, it's terrifying.

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Secondaries BB at Tier VII?  Gneisenau, hands down.  The 128mm 11x2 guns she has are far better than the piddly 105mm 7x2 and 150mm 4x2 setup Scharnhorst has.  Everybody else is a poor Secondaries / Brawling Battleship platform this tier if they are not named Gneisenau or Scharnhorst.

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15 hours ago, _Marines said:

What's your captain skills for Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, mind me ask? I wonder whether to IFHE or not to IFHE. (My instinct is to IFHE. They are German, you know. =)

IFHE not ideal for them imo.  You can pen everything except T8/9 32mm BB bow/stern armor.  Since T7 sees plenty of 25mm or less armor don't think it is needed.

Now moving up the line that is a different story.

A dedicated 19 pt build for me would be

PT, AR, BFT, AFT, MFCS, MFCAA, then finish with whatever last 1 pt skill you want.

In tiers where CVs are common don't underestimate the AA power of Gneis.  She is the NC of T7.

With this build you can be a double troll.  Nasty brawling build and murderous AA build in one.

Cheers.

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I voted for Scharnhorst, although I think it's a toss up between Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Actually, now that I think about it, I might give the edge to Gneisenau because of the higher Top speed and better AA. I got both and enjoy them equally. I just wished there was an option to put the 283mm guns on the A hull of the Gneisenau to be able to play her in her historical configuration.  :Smile_honoring:

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I just finished grinding Gneis. From my experience, she's a good brawler, but honestly I prefer the Scharn. The 128s on the Gneis don't do as much to BBs as you'd think. They're wonderful against cruisers and DDs but it's nothing the Scharns 150s and 105s can't do. Furthermore the Scharn has faster firing guns and hydro(?).

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